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Since 3.3 came out I have been duel wield tanking (again) and the combination of the new weapon rune+improved threat on runestrike+the fact that with 2 tank weapons you have more mitigation. I was wondering if anyone else was feeling that duel wield is the way to tank these days.
No. Threat production for DW is still well below 2-hand builds.
For one thing, the stats on tanking weapons are generally only 1-2% avoidance. You will take about 1% more damage (probably more without expertise/with idiots that stand in front) due to boss Parry Hasting. So it isn't actually like you are gaining much by using tanking weapons. And your overall stamina gain from them tends to be lower.
Furthermore, NC, being half of SSG, isn't superior except that you can use "half" of it with another runeforge.
Rune Strike is a major threat tool for all builds. And, if you are using a tanking off-hand, it is hitting for way less than my Runestrike does with a 2-hander, as tanking 1-handers are very, very fast and have low average damages.
Furthermore, DW takes way more hit (and expertise becomes more important) to be effective. This lowers their other stats comparatively.
Plus, overall, even with the increased hit they tend to do less damage due to the higher Str and Crit that 2-handers often have, when they don't need to waste itemization.
DW is viable now, yes.
But it is VERY far from being "the way to tank." It would need a SERIOUS buff for the top 500 guilds to start using DW tanks.
For one thing, the stats on tanking weapons are generally only 1-2% avoidance. You will take about 1% more damage (probably more without expertise/with idiots that stand in front) due to boss Parry Hasting. So it isn't actually like you are gaining much by using tanking weapons. And your overall stamina gain from them tends to be lower.
Furthermore, NC, being half of SSG, isn't superior except that you can use "half" of it with another runeforge.
Rune Strike is a major threat tool for all builds. And, if you are using a tanking off-hand, it is hitting for way less than my Runestrike does with a 2-hander, as tanking 1-handers are very, very fast and have low average damages.
Furthermore, DW takes way more hit (and expertise becomes more important) to be effective. This lowers their other stats comparatively.
Plus, overall, even with the increased hit they tend to do less damage due to the higher Str and Crit that 2-handers often have, when they don't need to waste itemization.
DW is viable now, yes.
But it is VERY far from being "the way to tank." It would need a SERIOUS buff for the top 500 guilds to start using DW tanks.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Rune Strike is a major threat tool for all builds. And, if you are using a tanking off-hand, it is hitting for way less than my Runestrike does with a 2-hander, as tanking 1-handers are very, very fast and have low average damages.
Furthermore, DW takes way more hit (and expertise becomes more important) to be effective. This lowers their other stats comparatively.
Furthermore, DW takes way more hit (and expertise becomes more important) to be effective. This lowers their other stats comparatively.
Yes i agree with the second part and that is the ONLY thing i miss about using 2h wepaon. As for the rune strike of threat per use with 2 hander...
You use runestrike on 2h ever 3 secs (avg 2h attack rate), meanwhile i'm using 2 tanking weapons dodging and parrying more often and hitting runstrike almost every second and if runestrike only gets half threat from duel wield the tps is 150% more from duel wield than 2h weapon avg.
Edit: punctuation
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 8:20am by killsinheels
Quote:
Yes i agree with the second part and that is the ONLY thing i miss about using 2h wepaon. As for the rune strike of threat per use with 2 hander...
You use runestrike on 2h ever 3 secs (avg 2h attack rate), meanwhile i'm using 2 tanking weapons dodging and parrying more often and hitting runstrike almost every second and if runestrike only gets half threat from duel wield the tps is 150% more from duel wield than 2h weapon avg.
You use runestrike on 2h ever 3 secs (avg 2h attack rate), meanwhile i'm using 2 tanking weapons dodging and parrying more often and hitting runstrike almost every second and if runestrike only gets half threat from duel wield the tps is 150% more from duel wield than 2h weapon avg.
RS is not consumed by an off-hand hit, I believe. So, using the DpS main-hand, you should have a 2.4 or 2.6 speed. That's only, like, 20-something percent more. Not nearly the amount you are suggesting.
Plus, you are still bound from RP. And you won't always have it. Furthermore, the slightly higher proc rate from higher avoidance of tanking weps won't result in many more RSs at all, as they can overlap. So, if you get 1% dodge+parry, that is less than 1% additional RSs just due to proc overlapping. Factor in RP bounds, and it is much lower.
And all of your Obliterates, Blood Strikes and Plague Strikes will be doing less if you use a tanking-off hand.
But, if you use two dps weapons, you aren't gaining additional avoidance, so you still aren't getting more RSs. And you aren't covering for parry-hasting. And you are still way lower on Hit.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
I still do the Frost DW DPS build (I just don't see the same numbers with Unholy).
But if I were to tank, I'd go w/ a 2Hander.
But if I were to tank, I'd go w/ a 2Hander.
From using ToT obliterate etc use BOTH weapons which should really make up for the lack of dmg on each weapon as due to balancing 1h weapons are roughly half a 2h weapon and the dual wield talent in frost covers alot of the extra hit rating you would need for it. I'm not suggesting using dual wield for blood or unholy on the contrary i highly suggest you dont use dual wield for them specs!
From using ToT obliterate etc use BOTH weapons which should really make up for the lack of dmg on each weapon as due to balancing 1h weapons are roughly half a 2h weapon and the dual wield talent in frost covers alot of the extra hit rating you would need for it. I'm not suggesting using dual wield for blood or unholy on the contrary i highly suggest you dont use dual wield for them specs!
Edit: The only thing i miss on is plage strikes (to my knowlege almost all my other skills hit unless dodged blocked or parried)
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 10:53am by killsinheels
Edit: The only thing i miss on is plage strikes (to my knowlege almost all my other skills hit unless dodged blocked or parried)
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 10:53am by killsinheels
Edite: accidental double post from lag spike on internet
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 10:52am by killsinheels
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 10:52am by killsinheels
Quote:
From using ToT obliterate etc use BOTH weapons which should really make up for the lack of dmg on each weapon as due to balancing 1h weapons are roughly half a 2h weapon and the dual wield talent in frost covers alot of the extra hit rating you would need for it. I'm not suggesting using dual wield for blood or unholy on the contrary i highly suggest you dont use dual wield for them specs!
No.
Tank weapons have slow speeds--the highest one I can think of right now is 1.8.
A ilvl 240 tank 1-handed weapon will have TWO HUNDRED MORE average damage at speed 2.6 than at 1.8.
If you use a fast off-hand, that is two hundred less damage on every strike (which is a huge drop in RS threat). If you use two tanking weapons (as you suggest in the OP), you are losing 400 damage per strike, and 702 threat from each Rune Strike. And you were wrong about the difference in number of swings. You'll RS SLIGHTLY more. Not a lot more. And it comes at the costs of FSs, so it isn't free threat over 2-hand.
Sorry, but you're wrong.
[EDIT]
Quote:
Edit: The only thing i miss on is plage strikes (to my knowlege almost all my other skills hit unless dodged blocked or parried)
That makes NO sense. Plague Strike has a hit cap of 8%. If you are hit capped for 2-hand, you are hit capped for all strikes (except maybe RS, I don't know how that works since it replaces a white hit).
Your SPELLS, meaning IT, HB, BB, DnD, and anything else use the SPELL hit cap, which is 17%. Yes, it is 9% higher.
If you are missing Plague Strikes, you are missing a hell of a lot more of your spells.
But the issue is with your white hits. You need 27% hit to never miss with one of those. And you'd be surprised how much threat you get from them (and, if you don't care about hitting with them, why are you DW in the first place?)
DW is a fine tanking spec. But it just isn't the best. Not even close. No top end guild will use a DW main tank, because they want the highest threat threshold possible, since their DpS actually push its limits.
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 1:50pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Your SPELLS, meaning IT, HB, BB, DnD, and anything else use the SPELL hit cap, which is 17%. Yes, it is 9% higher.
I already said i know that dual wielding needs more hit rating which is why my spec puts talents into both the talent which reduce the hit rating needed and i use ToT so that almost every "special" melee attack uses both weapon and not just a single weapon
Quote:
I already said i know that dual wielding needs more hit rating which is why my spec puts talents into both the talent which reduce the hit rating needed and i use ToT so that almost every "special" melee attack uses both weapon and not just a single weapon
Your prior statements led me to believe you don't know what hit caps are. Just knowing that a spec needs more hit than another isn't enough.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Your prior statements led me to believe you don't know what hit caps are. Just knowing that a spec needs more hit than another isn't enough.
Oh aye and your prior statements led me to believe you don't know what TALENTS are!
ToT use both weapons on Blood Strike Deathstrike Runestrike Froststrike Obliterate (did i miss anything)
Nerves Of Cold Steel 3/3 3% more Hit chance with 1h Melee Weapons
Virulense 3/3 3% more Hit chance on spells
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 7:44pm by killsinheels
One question about that Nerves of Cold Steel talent. Does that improve my hit chance with attacks which use a 1handed melee weapon. So just my strikes and Melee hits. Or does it increase my hit chance with all attacks while a 1 handed weapon is equipped, so spells as well. Meaning is my Spell hit chance with that and Virulence 14% or 11%? Im thinking its 14% and only gets to 11% with a Boomkin or Spriest buff? Does Boomkin or Spriest stack with Draenai buff?
It includes all forms of hit. 17% becomes 14%. 8% becomes 5%.
[EDIT]
Virulence will further decrease the hit needed on top of it, but only for spells.
[EDIT2]
I was wrong. NoCS only affects strikes and melee attacks--things that use the 8%. Virulence only affects the spell attacks, that which uses 17%. You'll go down to 11% with the relevent buff from another class, but that's it without a Draenei, I think. Everything else is gear.
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 8:46pm by idiggory
[EDIT]
Virulence will further decrease the hit needed on top of it, but only for spells.
[EDIT2]
I was wrong. NoCS only affects strikes and melee attacks--things that use the 8%. Virulence only affects the spell attacks, that which uses 17%. You'll go down to 11% with the relevent buff from another class, but that's it without a Draenei, I think. Everything else is gear.
Edited, Dec 15th 2009 8:46pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
I was wrong. NoCS only affects strikes and melee attacks--things that use the 8%. Virulence only affects the spell attacks, that which uses 17%. You'll go down to 11% with the relevent buff from another class, but that's it without a Draenei, I think. Everything else is gear.
Well i am always grouped with a boomkin because one of my friends levelled a boomkin alongside my paladin (first character on server) i never group with dreaneis and last time i tried the dreanei tried to kill me (i am horde) and to reach hit cap i sacrificed 60 stamina (2 pure stam gems to 10hit 15 stam and one pure stam gem to +10hit +10 exp but i woulda had to do that even when using a 2h weapon)
Edited, Dec 16th 2009 4:14am by killsinheels
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