So I just did a bunch of heroics in Naxx gearFollow

Yea it is.

Had 3 rogues in ICC25 last night, all 3 of us were in the top 3 on every boss fight.

Yeah, i dusted off my old rogue in half finished naxx gear, specced lightning reflexes-mut and did some heroics. I was pushing over 5k on some stand-still bosses. Then i got a dagger drop in forge of souls and jumped about 500 dps. It's ridiculous.

I'm thinking the icecrown fights thus far are a little less than ideal for mut. Marrowgar is ok, you'll have to restart your rotation every 45 seconds though, and switching to spikes will be less effective than combat. The second boss is a nightmare until phase 2 where you can just sit on her. Gunship battle is ok, get HfB and SnD running from the boarding party, then hop over and crush the mage with both ticking. Saurfang is ideal, since melee just have to sit on him all fight long and push out as much dps as possible. It's the patchwerk of ICC (if you're melee).

Well, I just ran with a Rogue who was fairly knew and JUST met the gear requirements for H FoS. Didn't have Omen OR Recount.

He was putting out 4-5.5K TpS. I was putting out 5.5-6K TpS, and I was WORKING for it.

And his dagger dropped, which I'm sure will be giving him some nice new numbers...

Enjoy it while it lasts, seriously. Because you KNOW the next thing Blizz will do is nerf you into the ground (like they always do. >.<)

"What? They're putting out 1K too much DpS? Why, then, we must nerf it 5K!"

5-man performance isn't going to be a reason for a nerf. Rogue damage there can be all over the place, depending on group composition. Even little things can make a major difference, like somebody providing you with constant bleeding so you can refresh HfB whenever it fits into your rotation rather than having those "OMG I gotta put it back up"-moments.

I've been enjoying my rogue again since patch day, and that's not so much because of improved talents, but because as a non-raider I finally had an opportunity to upgrade my weapons. I've been running around with that ugly ToC mace for what seemed an endless amount of time, the only way out of that being the ToC dagger(s) which just wouldn't drop regardless of how often I tried. My crappy gear looked so ridiculous that most of the time I felt like being stuck in the "Outland clown suit" again. Crap gear, crap dps, and not even looking cool... so many reasons not to even bother doing anything with my rogue.

Things have changed dramatically for me now. I finally feel like I have a realistic chance to catch up with everyone else. Level 232 MH dagger, 232 axe, a 232 fist from trash, and a 219 OH within less than a week since patch day give me plenty of options now. And while building my ******* and actually exploring the new places, I gathered enough tokens to replace some of my stuff with fancy T9 pieces. Another week or 2 and I'll be geared enough to dare the occasional trip to the Coliseum in hopes for 245+ weapons...

These things might seem insignificant or even outright hilarious to someone who considers his rogue his main toon, or goes out raiding each and every week. To me they're huge, though.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 8:11am by Kanngarnix

Since we're still within the very first lockout period on the live realms, no guild should have useful data, even more so since things were "fixed" during this period. If you have multiple attempts on single bosses, your guild is still learning the fight and any changes in data can be accounted to that - things like people not being quite sure how and where to move, dying so certain buffs would come and go, and whatever else.

In addition to that, top guilds are not exactly what's being used to evaluate the need for buffs and nerfs anyway. It's the average guilds you need to be looking at

No. Clearly talking about DECENT guilds and THOUSANDS of parses. Not about a few top guilds.



If encounters and classes were balanced primarily around a few top guilds and/or their efforts on the PTR or live realms, you could rest assured that you'd end up with like at least two thirds of the WoW population being unable to make it through it even on normal modes.

Maybe they will nerf us but I intend to enjoy it while it lasts ;3

A. That's really not a debate that needs re-ignition. Plus, Blizz is slowly adding buffing capabilities to all classes, so it isn't going to be relevant eventually.

B. It just isn't true that Rogues don't buff. Or, I should say it isn't true that you don't debuff (which is the same thing, when it comes down to it). You are one of three classes that can do +3% crit. You may not have a passive, castable buff, no, but that doesn't mean you don't buff. My DK can do +155 Str/Agi and one other buff when called upon to do so. Raids often mean Shaman use the +172 buff, so my only buff/debuff is one caused from another ability, just like yours.

3% crit for the group or 4% physical damage are buffs regardless if you're in a raid or a 5-toon. Perhaps not the most vital buffs for dungeons, but they have their place. Don't discount them.

And, honestly, to bring up the finer points of raid composition and then tell us that you don't raid is a bit wonky.

Comparison to the DK group buffs is justifiable here: Both classes bring buffs that other classes also bring (3% crit/4% phys damage and the AP, Haste or Spell damage buffs). Blizz--wisely IMO--have pushed raid-vital buffs across several classes to help ease raid composition issues. Just because we don't "have to" EA doesn't mean our ability to is worthless.

In my personal view (as a progression rogue turned DPS DK), the rogue actually brings more utility to a raid: More efficient DPS, stuns/silences/blinds/etc, Tricks, and -- possibly most vital in current content -- a full threat dump (get Hysteria, pop tricks, push 105 threat and vanish, ..., profit!). In 5-toons I'm often blinding/gouging a loose mob even if it just means 3 seconds for the tank to grab it. I can't stress the importance of a well placed stun in groups. Which is something that I really miss when I'm on my DK. That and Vanish... sigh.

Rogues are, indeed, DPS machines. But there is some other utility that's there if you know what you're doing. That's all I'm saying.