Alright, so I'm a long-time lurker here on Allakhazam, though not one to post much. I recently got my baby bear to 80, and I'm starting the gearing up process. I am well aware that her gear is nowhere near ideal just yet, but yeah. I'm sitting at 34.5k health, 28k armor, 40% dodge, 5.2k AP, 39% crit with just my Mark of the Wild. Armory link here. My problem is threat.
I'm pulling between 4 and 5k threat usually, but with a fair bit of the guild's DPS geared from ToC25 and/or heroic ToC10, that's nowhere near enough. Yes, this is an alt, but the guild's convinced me to start tanking 10 mans sometimes when they don't need my pally healing. Anyway. My basic 'rotation' (on a single pull) is to pull with FFF, mangle, stack lacerate while hitting mangle on cooldown, all with maul bound into both my lacerate and mangle keys, so that's constantly getting hit as well. Is my problem probably mostly gear-related, or is there something I can be doing better to improve my threat?
Sorry to bug y'all; I'm afraid I'm a healer at heart, and though fun, this tanking stuff is still new. Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer!
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Are you losing agg on your main target or the other 2-3 trash mobs?
Looking at things I'd say they likely just out-gear you atm. If you are losing the mobs to AoE you can try and tab through them so maul hits different targets. However, if it's the mob you are focusing on, there may not be much you can do but ask them to lay off a bit until you can get some better gear.
But just my thoughts; we'll have to see what some of the more experienced bears have to say. :-)
Looking at things I'd say they likely just out-gear you atm. If you are losing the mobs to AoE you can try and tab through them so maul hits different targets. However, if it's the mob you are focusing on, there may not be much you can do but ask them to lay off a bit until you can get some better gear.
But just my thoughts; we'll have to see what some of the more experienced bears have to say. :-)
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
I'm no feral guru, but if you're losing threat on a boss because of the dps out threating you, then some hunter or rogue isnt doing their job to tricks or MD you. Or your pallys aren't salving when they need to. Perhaps if its a boss fight to use beserk?
Ok im done trying to pretend I know feral...
I'll go back to my coop now :(
Ok im done trying to pretend I know feral...
I'll go back to my coop now :(
I'm in ilevel 200-232 gear right now and I'm only pushing 4k as well. I have slightly more health than you, but less avoidance and attack power (will hopefully change once I get a better weapon).
On a boss fight I seem to be struggling with Mages. Warlocks can put out some insane burst with their Destruction spec, but over time it levels out. It seems like Arcane Mages just amp up the longer the fight takes. It's crazy. I was tanking Onyxia and I noticed that I was putting out 4-4.5k TPS and the next on the list was our Mage with 5.7k TPS. Talk about stress.
Anyway, I'm so sick and tired of grinding for a new weapon. I hope the Fordragon Blades drop tonight and I get a shot at them. Seriously could use an upgrade - any upgrade.
Edit: Here's my usual "priority list":
- runs in -
1. Lacerate x 5
2. Maul
3. Faerie Fire
4. Mangle
5. Swipe if Lacerate is stacked
- Berserk tiem!!one -
Make sure, before you pop Berserk, that the following conditions are met:
1. Lacerate x 5 and refreshed.
2. Faerie Fire refreshed.
3. Demoralizing Roar refreshed.
Pop Berserk and spam Mangle while using Maul whenever possible. Make sure Lacerate doesn't run out since with 2x T8 the DoT can proc Clearcasting.
Also, I found that once Lacerate is stacked to five, replacing it with Swipe in the rotation actually gives more threat. So once Lacerate starts rolling, only cast it once in a while to refresh it and then spam Swipe, Mangle, Maul and Faerie Fire whenever possible.
Anyone feel like picking my post apart? I'm still learning and this is all based on my personal experiences. ElitistJerks might be of a different opinion.
Edited, Nov 20th 2009 8:40pm by Mazra
On a boss fight I seem to be struggling with Mages. Warlocks can put out some insane burst with their Destruction spec, but over time it levels out. It seems like Arcane Mages just amp up the longer the fight takes. It's crazy. I was tanking Onyxia and I noticed that I was putting out 4-4.5k TPS and the next on the list was our Mage with 5.7k TPS. Talk about stress.
Anyway, I'm so sick and tired of grinding for a new weapon. I hope the Fordragon Blades drop tonight and I get a shot at them. Seriously could use an upgrade - any upgrade.
Edit: Here's my usual "priority list":
- runs in -
1. Lacerate x 5
2. Maul
3. Faerie Fire
4. Mangle
5. Swipe if Lacerate is stacked
- Berserk tiem!!one -
Make sure, before you pop Berserk, that the following conditions are met:
1. Lacerate x 5 and refreshed.
2. Faerie Fire refreshed.
3. Demoralizing Roar refreshed.
Pop Berserk and spam Mangle while using Maul whenever possible. Make sure Lacerate doesn't run out since with 2x T8 the DoT can proc Clearcasting.
Also, I found that once Lacerate is stacked to five, replacing it with Swipe in the rotation actually gives more threat. So once Lacerate starts rolling, only cast it once in a while to refresh it and then spam Swipe, Mangle, Maul and Faerie Fire whenever possible.
Anyone feel like picking my post apart? I'm still learning and this is all based on my personal experiences. ElitistJerks might be of a different opinion.
Edited, Nov 20th 2009 8:40pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Scholar
31 posts
Yes, it's bosses I worry about more than trash. I do lose AOE trash once in a while when I'm tab spamming like a maniac to weave in a maul on everything that moves in between swipes, but I am quick getting it back as well. It's been bosses that occasionally give me trouble, mostly with a very nicely geared destro lock that I have to call for salv on a fair bit or an equally nicely geared boomkin that doesn't believe in Omen or assisting. Yeah, I know. That part isn't entirely my fault, but he says he only bothers to assist on 25 man raids. Whatever. :P I've never lost a DPS due to losing aggro on a boss, but they definitely make me sweat, and I know I'm threat capping people somewhat. I'll just hope it's due to gear, and try swiping instead of lacerate once that's stacked to five. I also didn't know about berserking once lacerate is already stacked, though that makes a lot of sense. I'd been popping it off the top for the extra start-up threat from mangle-spam.
Thank you all for the advice. Tanking is definitely a lot of fun, and a *huge* change from standing back and healing. Also much easier to raid lead while tanking than healing. Whee.
Thank you all for the advice. Tanking is definitely a lot of fun, and a *huge* change from standing back and healing. Also much easier to raid lead while tanking than healing. Whee.
Sounds like you know what you're doing honestly. Bears have awesome TPS, but it's very gear dependent, especially your weapon.
You are in mostly 200/219 gear with a couple 226 mixed in. Simply upgrading your gear to 226/232 gear will make a big difference in keeping up and getting a lead.
I am in a mix of ToC 10/25 gear and if I don't give tanks at least a 75k lead on omen, I can pull threat very very quickly. And these tanks are full ToC 10/25+ geared.
What kind of dps are your dps able to pull off while hugging your threat cap? That should really be the measure of the quality of your tanking. If they are threat capping hard or doing crap dps because they have to wait forever to start their rotation, it's a problem, if it isn't, then gear will be the only true thing you can do to increase your TPS.
Rotation wise, I'd agree with Mazra-tanknub♥ about how to do it:
FFF
Maul+ Mangle on first contact
Stack Lacerate till FFF comes off CD (Que Maul always)
FFF + Mangle
Get Lacerate stack to 5
Demo Roar(can be sooner, but waiting till 5 stacks means it won't kill you for wasting the GCD on a low threat ability while your dps are racing you.)
After that you can pop berserk to give yourself some breathing room
Key is to keep FFF and Mangle on CD always, Maul always Que'd, Swipe instead of lacerate unless refreshing.
(pretty sure I've said the same thing like 3 times now, but I'm at work for 12 hours and my brain is mush)
Also, on an unrelated note, your hit rating is really high for a tank. It will go down as you get more tank-centric gear, but even with 200 or more hit rating, I would drop the growl glyph for frenzied regen. Just my opinion though. I know it sucks to have growl miss, but it's so infrequent over 200 hit rating that I'd rather have the extra oh sh*t for my healers for if things go south.
Edited, Nov 20th 2009 4:24pm by Galenmoon
You are in mostly 200/219 gear with a couple 226 mixed in. Simply upgrading your gear to 226/232 gear will make a big difference in keeping up and getting a lead.
I am in a mix of ToC 10/25 gear and if I don't give tanks at least a 75k lead on omen, I can pull threat very very quickly. And these tanks are full ToC 10/25+ geared.
What kind of dps are your dps able to pull off while hugging your threat cap? That should really be the measure of the quality of your tanking. If they are threat capping hard or doing crap dps because they have to wait forever to start their rotation, it's a problem, if it isn't, then gear will be the only true thing you can do to increase your TPS.
Rotation wise, I'd agree with Mazra-tanknub♥ about how to do it:
FFF
Maul+ Mangle on first contact
Stack Lacerate till FFF comes off CD (Que Maul always)
FFF + Mangle
Get Lacerate stack to 5
Demo Roar(can be sooner, but waiting till 5 stacks means it won't kill you for wasting the GCD on a low threat ability while your dps are racing you.)
After that you can pop berserk to give yourself some breathing room
Key is to keep FFF and Mangle on CD always, Maul always Que'd, Swipe instead of lacerate unless refreshing.
(pretty sure I've said the same thing like 3 times now, but I'm at work for 12 hours and my brain is mush)
Also, on an unrelated note, your hit rating is really high for a tank. It will go down as you get more tank-centric gear, but even with 200 or more hit rating, I would drop the growl glyph for frenzied regen. Just my opinion though. I know it sucks to have growl miss, but it's so infrequent over 200 hit rating that I'd rather have the extra oh sh*t for my healers for if things go south.
Edited, Nov 20th 2009 4:24pm by Galenmoon
Tricks of the Trade and Misdirects are very important and if they aren't being used everytime they are up, then then people being threat capped is not your fault. I know that in our raids, as long as we wait 2-3 secs to start DPS, the other feral and I (who are close to if not the top DPS) can usually beserk right at the start of the fight without any issues. That is usually in 25mans though and we usually have 2-3 hunters and a rogue. In a 10 man, you could certainly end up with none of the above.
Overall, it seems you know what you are doing, so if the above is not the problem, then you will just have to wait on the gear to come your way....
Overall, it seems you know what you are doing, so if the above is not the problem, then you will just have to wait on the gear to come your way....
Misdirects are awesome on the tank, but my guild likes to use the Rogue's Tricks of the Trade on me and our other feral druid or our top DK dps since it gives a 15% damage buff for 6 seconds.
Tricks combined with Hysteria combined with Heroism combined with Berserk combined with Trauma/Mangle bot = OMG AGGRO!
Tricks combined with Hysteria combined with Heroism combined with Berserk combined with Trauma/Mangle bot = OMG AGGRO!
First off, just want to clarify that Lacerate ticks are terrible threat; the application of the ability is what gives you the TPS burst. So don't go thinking you can stop throwing the Lacerates just because you got 5 stacks. If you get more threat from Swipe, it's because you have a lot of AP, not because Swipe inherently becomes a better threat grab than Lacerate x5...and if that's the case, then I wouldn't spend my early GCDs getting Lacerate to 5 stacks, preferring instead only to refresh it when it gets low, and use Swipe in the meantime.
Use FFF every cooldown. It's rage free threat and mine usually hits for about 1k, crits for 2k. That's pretty damn good every 4 sec and without costing rage.
Most of your gear will be focusing around mitigation, so your weapon's quality, especially relative to your DPS crew's weapons, is probably the single most important thing you can do to keep threat up.
Personally speaking I don't use Berserk every time it's up. It's a great little damage burst but I get threat faster in my normal ability rotation. I save Berserk for a fear break and/or damage gimmicks like Icehowl's wall stun.
My gear is mostly Ulduar with a little ToC in; I haven't managed to land much of the ToC upgrades for tanking just yet. Self buffed I have something like 30k armor, 39k hp, and a hair under 40% dodge; AP somewhere in the 6k range I think. I can hit peaks of 8k TPS, usually maintaining 6k or so.
And tricks/hysteria are so much better used on a kitty. Assuming your tanks can keep up, that is.
Edited, Nov 20th 2009 6:26pm by Norellicus
Use FFF every cooldown. It's rage free threat and mine usually hits for about 1k, crits for 2k. That's pretty damn good every 4 sec and without costing rage.
Most of your gear will be focusing around mitigation, so your weapon's quality, especially relative to your DPS crew's weapons, is probably the single most important thing you can do to keep threat up.
Personally speaking I don't use Berserk every time it's up. It's a great little damage burst but I get threat faster in my normal ability rotation. I save Berserk for a fear break and/or damage gimmicks like Icehowl's wall stun.
My gear is mostly Ulduar with a little ToC in; I haven't managed to land much of the ToC upgrades for tanking just yet. Self buffed I have something like 30k armor, 39k hp, and a hair under 40% dodge; AP somewhere in the 6k range I think. I can hit peaks of 8k TPS, usually maintaining 6k or so.
And tricks/hysteria are so much better used on a kitty. Assuming your tanks can keep up, that is.
Edited, Nov 20th 2009 6:26pm by Norellicus
I don't anything about feral stuff. Not even an educated guess. Just posting to say welcome to Alla and the Druid boards!
As all ready mentioned get a new weapon.
Also trade some of the hit for expertise. Expertise will help with threat. Mitigation as well.
So ya get a new weapon.
Also trade some of the hit for expertise. Expertise will help with threat. Mitigation as well.
So ya get a new weapon.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Is there an expertise cap?
Right now I'm at 29 with talents (19 without). I got some new gear with some additional +hit which puts me at 229 hit rating (6.98%), but after having noticed how my Growl would miss sometimes, I'm not too worried about overstacking hit at the moment.
I noticed my TPS went up at least 500 thanks to the new gear. The 600 attack power I went up on my weapon probably helped a lot as well.
Right now I'm at 29 with talents (19 without). I got some new gear with some additional +hit which puts me at 229 hit rating (6.98%), but after having noticed how my Growl would miss sometimes, I'm not too worried about overstacking hit at the moment.
I noticed my TPS went up at least 500 thanks to the new gear. The 600 attack power I went up on my weapon probably helped a lot as well.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Quote:
Is there an expertise cap?
Kinda. Soft cap is at 26 to avoid being dodged. Reaching the actual cap of 56 to avoid parries as well is not realistic, although every bit of expertise beyond the soft cap obviously increases your threat.
Kanngarnix wrote:
Quote:
Is there an expertise cap?
Kinda. Soft cap is at 26 to avoid being dodged. Reaching the actual cap of 56 to avoid parries as well is not realistic, although every bit of expertise beyond the soft cap obviously increases your threat.
Also by reducing mob parry helps with mitigation. Granted parry hasting is not as big of an issue now as it was in BC it still helps you take less damage.
In Wrath it is more about the threat for most encounters.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quite frankly OP, you're doing fine considering your gear. Now, if you could get some of those 10togc or 25toc geared folks to carry your tank through a run or two, you'd become a tank they could rely on quite a bit more than now for that type of content.
A lot of bear tank threat is the result of which weapon you're using, the Feral AP in cat or bear provided to you by a weapon is often times half of your total AP, the weapon is a big deal. I'd suggest you pick up some i232/i245 staff or polearm before you even begin to worry about threat problems against i232/i245 geared DPS. There's simply not a lot a tank can do without the headroom allowed by better gear.
Quote:
Is my problem probably mostly gear-related
A lot of bear tank threat is the result of which weapon you're using, the Feral AP in cat or bear provided to you by a weapon is often times half of your total AP, the weapon is a big deal. I'd suggest you pick up some i232/i245 staff or polearm before you even begin to worry about threat problems against i232/i245 geared DPS. There's simply not a lot a tank can do without the headroom allowed by better gear.
Torzak of Carbuncle(Moved To Asura)
Kanngarnix wrote:
Quote:
Is there an expertise cap?
Kinda. Soft cap is at 26 to avoid being dodged. Reaching the actual cap of 56 to avoid parries as well is not realistic, although every bit of expertise beyond the soft cap obviously increases your threat.
I've got 40 expertise right now. 30 from gear and 10 from talents.
And 300 hit rating, but I swear I'm not gearing towards it. It just happens to be on the tanking stuff I get.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Scholar
31 posts
My thanks again for the wealth of advice! I figured my gear (especially the weapon, though what I have is far better than what I'd been using) was at least part of my threat problem, but I did want to check if there was something I could be doing better as well. I did manage to offtank a ToC10 without much trouble at all. Hopefully I'll be able to pick up some gear from there that is actually DPS/tank leather instead of the resto stuff that dropped this week. :P No chance of getting carried through 25s just yet; I'm always needed on my holy pally to help carry other people.
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