After reading up on all of the different forums and informational websites about the different specs, shot rotations, pets, gear, stat weights and DPS charts, I still can't find the desire to switch from Beast Mastery. I understand that as we are right now we'll never (rarely maybe) top the damage charts against other Hunters in SV or MM, and that Blizzard has stated that they are OK with BM having lower DPS because it's a simpler playstyle for PvE DPS Hunters, but that doesn't change the way I want to play my class or feel about my character.
SV-MM > BM is the current state of things right now depending on gear and encounter from what I've read, but do people forget that BM adds 3% damage to every person in the raid? regardless of where they happen to be in relation to the Hunter *cough* Retadin *cough*? Do they realize that a BM pet can stun and hold attention for a pretty good amount of time with the proper care? and even if they die, WE might lose DPS but we may have saved the healer or other DPS from death and it only takes us a few seconds to recover and we're back in the DPS race (we're last probably, but whatever).
I am rambling at this point but I've always felt that too many people focused too much on e-peen and DPS numbers and didn't take into account the other utilities you might be offering on the side besides just high personal DPS. I have pride as a BM Hunter and know full well that I won't top the meters, but I'll love my class, know how to play it well and contribute in other ways that people may not notice but I feel good about... besides there's nothing really quite as satisfying as unloading all your CD's on BW and tearing the hell out of whatever you wanted to kill with a big red beast chewing it's face off.... and you walking away from a 3+ man elite quest target without so much as a scratch.
Just my 2 cents, but does anyone else feel the same as me?
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I mainly play a BM because I want a pet that I enjoy looking at and it may get me asked where I got it from... you can't have any of my pets unless you are a BM specced hunter.
I mean, sometimes I do feel like dual speccing and playing a MM, but I won't get rid of one of my pets to do that.
Am I nerfing myself, yeah.
Considering my hunter(s) is just a good farming character and not what I would call a main... I don't care what his DPS is most of the time.
I mean, sometimes I do feel like dual speccing and playing a MM, but I won't get rid of one of my pets to do that.
Am I nerfing myself, yeah.
Considering my hunter(s) is just a good farming character and not what I would call a main... I don't care what his DPS is most of the time.
PentUpAnger the Irrelevant wrote:
I mainly play a BM because I want a pet that I enjoy looking at and it may get me asked where I got it from... you can't have any of my pets unless you are a BM specced hunter.
I mean, sometimes I do feel like dual speccing and playing a MM, but I won't get rid of one of my pets to do that.
Am I nerfing myself, yeah.
Considering my hunter(s) is just a good farming character and not what I would call a main... I don't care what his DPS is most of the time.
I mean, sometimes I do feel like dual speccing and playing a MM, but I won't get rid of one of my pets to do that.
Am I nerfing myself, yeah.
Considering my hunter(s) is just a good farming character and not what I would call a main... I don't care what his DPS is most of the time.
This is the big one. Do what YOU enjoy.
Just expect to be called out for it a lot. My guild forces respec's of anyone not 100% in the spec the guild wants. While it sounds prickish, it optimizes the group makeup and there is this thing called "dual spec" that all 80's should have.
I pug'd TotC25 Monday night on my Mage alt and on Anub we pulled in a hunter. When he arrived we saw he was BM.
We lol'd and put him on Frost Spheres. Voila, a spot.
Overall though just do what you want. If you don't care about min/max or being in serious groups it's all about having fun. I LOVE BM (my hunter is only 31 though so that love will only grow) so I don't know that I will do SV/MM. Hunter is among the more fun classes.
On a side note to this... I was invited to VoA25 the other day and accepted and was summoned in the instance. They started pulling right away so I just summoned my pet and started firing away. After that first pull of 2, I realized I was in my BM farming spec with my Spirit Beast. No one in the raid complained, so I ran with it. I ended up pulling 5k+ DPS for the run... I LOL'd.
Yeah, after hearing about stuff like that Browning, it really makes me wonder about Hunters and the specs. Yeah I understand that MM and SV can put out higher DPS numbers than BM, but BM Hunters by no means put out bad DPS numbers.
So now my question is this though...for optimal DPS would it be better to go 3/3 Ferocious Inspiration or 3/3 Catlike Reflexes? or a mix of both? and what would the damage differences be? I'll keep looking for the answers myself on other forums just wondering if any knew off the top of their head.
So now my question is this though...for optimal DPS would it be better to go 3/3 Ferocious Inspiration or 3/3 Catlike Reflexes? or a mix of both? and what would the damage differences be? I'll keep looking for the answers myself on other forums just wondering if any knew off the top of their head.
Ya know, maybe the crowd around here has changed but the last few times I brought up the idea that not being the max dps class/spec wasn't the end of the world, I got my head handed to me.
I got the usual "In order to RAID effectively you must be the best dps class and spec, with the best gear there is or your Raid should boot your tush until you are...".
I've always felt there is leeway and NEED of different specs in certain situations. There should always be a point where a BM hunter might have something 'good' to do in a Raid that MM and SV might not be able to do as well. Everyone should feel needed someplace. If all the classes/specs of a given type (dps, etc.) are within about 5% of each other in their mastery areas, then things are pretty much balanced. It's when (and how far) you get away from that 5% that it gets ugly.
Another issue is the Bosses are getting so lethal that the pets are having a hard time staying in the fight which is an automatic bad thing for BM spec. It tells me that they are having a hard time balancing out the fights too.
The faceroll is long dead, but I'm wondering if they haven't tortured BM a little too much for the ability to do that.
I got the usual "In order to RAID effectively you must be the best dps class and spec, with the best gear there is or your Raid should boot your tush until you are...".
I've always felt there is leeway and NEED of different specs in certain situations. There should always be a point where a BM hunter might have something 'good' to do in a Raid that MM and SV might not be able to do as well. Everyone should feel needed someplace. If all the classes/specs of a given type (dps, etc.) are within about 5% of each other in their mastery areas, then things are pretty much balanced. It's when (and how far) you get away from that 5% that it gets ugly.
Another issue is the Bosses are getting so lethal that the pets are having a hard time staying in the fight which is an automatic bad thing for BM spec. It tells me that they are having a hard time balancing out the fights too.
The faceroll is long dead, but I'm wondering if they haven't tortured BM a little too much for the ability to do that.
Scholar
34 posts
Yea Katchii, I just ran some numbers on femaledwarf and my Survival spec will net me 7.2k but my BM is at 6.6k. These are "perfect world" numbers of course. If you and your raid doesn't mind the 600DPS loss then you can play what you like.
I can understand the 600DPS loss, but with Ferocious Inspiration up, that's a 3% increase to every other member of the raid which would be well over 600DPS....all this provided you don't have a Ret Pally giving the Ret Aura buff.... but still 600DPS loss to give 3% damage increase to the entire raid? well worth it IMO.
Also, I've played BM since vanilla WoW, it's what I know, what I'm good at and it's what I like... I'll Dual Spec SV just to say I have it and use it when I have to I guess, but I'll start BM and switch to SV, not the other way around, when the situation asks for it.
Also, I've played BM since vanilla WoW, it's what I know, what I'm good at and it's what I like... I'll Dual Spec SV just to say I have it and use it when I have to I guess, but I'll start BM and switch to SV, not the other way around, when the situation asks for it.
Katchii wrote:
I can understand the 600DPS loss, but with Ferocious Inspiration up, that's a 3% increase to every other member of the raid which would be well over 600DPS....all this provided you don't have a Ret Pally giving the Ret Aura buff.... but still 600DPS loss to give 3% damage increase to the entire raid? well worth it IMO.
Definitely a valid point. Really though, it depends on the needs of your raid. All 3 hunter specs bring a very worthwhile buff at this point:
BM - Ferocious Inspiration
SV - Replenishment
MM - Trueshot Aura
So depending on your group composition and the specific fight, one or the other might be more useful to bring to the table.
Course, then there's the "other" things you can bring. MM can bring a MS effect. BM is more dependent on the pet - if you're not able to keep your pet up your DPS will go in the tank very quickly. Then you have the whole burst/CD vs. steady DPS specs - I know this is a big deal on rogue, assuming there are differences for hunters as well.
How big of a deal is it if your one spec does 8% more damage over five minutes (500 DPS loss) say , but your 2nd spec can put down an extra 20% (1200 extra DPS) for 30 seconds of any given fight?
Hopefully that's something that you talk about with your guild and raid leader - flexibility and adaptability in a raider is a great thing. Stubbornness is a bad thing.
I'm all for being the best I can be....but I put more stock in playing what is most enjoyable to you, optimizing that playstyle and being as good as you can possibly be at it. Playing what you know is better than playing what you don't know simply for the fact that you'll be clumsy, slow and awkward with something you are new at or just can't wrap your brain around, therefore I feel that it's better to be as good as you can possibly be at something that may be inferior than trying to be superior and failing miserably.
With that said though, you need to try the superior "spec" or whatever it might be before you can give up, otherwise you just look and sound like a fool, so I'm going to buy Dual Spec and go with either MM or SV to say I've tried it and given it a fighting chance.
So now the question is, will SV or MM be a more comfortable switch from BM and which one gives out better DPS?
BM= AP
MM= ArP
SV= Agility
Right? So I would think BM -> SV would be the easiest to do stat wise but what about shot rotation wise?
With that said though, you need to try the superior "spec" or whatever it might be before you can give up, otherwise you just look and sound like a fool, so I'm going to buy Dual Spec and go with either MM or SV to say I've tried it and given it a fighting chance.
So now the question is, will SV or MM be a more comfortable switch from BM and which one gives out better DPS?
BM= AP
MM= ArP
SV= Agility
Right? So I would think BM -> SV would be the easiest to do stat wise but what about shot rotation wise?
BM > Sv would be an easier dual spec in terms of gear. Shot rotations for Sv or MM aren't too far apart, they just have a few more specials than BM.
Priority (to the best of my knowledge)
Sv: Kill - Black Arrow - Explosive - Serpent Sting - Aimed/Multi - Steady
have fun with it, it makes fights a little more fun!
Priority (to the best of my knowledge)
Sv: Kill - Black Arrow - Explosive - Serpent Sting - Aimed/Multi - Steady
have fun with it, it makes fights a little more fun!
Got the Dual spec and went with the 0/15/56 build which is really only 0/13/56 for me at 78 and think it's pretty nice right now, but I can't really do real world tests of it and find how much I like it's performance until 80 and I have all my pets (Wolf especially) to 80.
I didn't realize that all my pets were either BM specific (Devilsaur and Loque'nahak =D) or sub-par for SV (Humar) so I went and got the Shattered Halls wolf from hellfire Citadel while specced SV and using a trash Ravager from just outside the instance. Getting the wolf was fun and challenging and a pretty good way to test out the SV rotation real world, but with the pet being so far below my level it just couldn't hold aggro while I blew the crap out of the mobs.
In any case I can't say for sure yet, but BM will still be my primary spec til 80 and perhaps beyond, but I will enjoy learning SV and seeing how the numbers and "fun" factor weigh against my, so far Hunter life long favorite BM.
And I've learned this much so far:
Stats- Hit(til capped) > Agility > Stamina and Intellect are about equal? Crit-AP> ArP?
Correct me if I'm wrong please
Shot rotation priorities:
Kill > Serpent > Black > Explosive > Aimed/Multi > Steady > Auto..... Why no Arcane Shot or where would you put it?
Pet:
Wolf
Macros:
Not one really that can manage Black Arrow and Serpent Sting debuff/ effect timers, but the BM Steady, Auto, Kill Command macro works well for weaving Steadies and activating Kill Command. I'll look up some macro logic/ help sites and try to find one that will help with Black Arrow, Explosive, Aimed, Multi and Arcane....but we'll see, SV wasn't meant to have a faceroll macro, but anything to help from pressing 5+ buttons for 1 shot rotation would be nice.
I didn't realize that all my pets were either BM specific (Devilsaur and Loque'nahak =D) or sub-par for SV (Humar) so I went and got the Shattered Halls wolf from hellfire Citadel while specced SV and using a trash Ravager from just outside the instance. Getting the wolf was fun and challenging and a pretty good way to test out the SV rotation real world, but with the pet being so far below my level it just couldn't hold aggro while I blew the crap out of the mobs.
In any case I can't say for sure yet, but BM will still be my primary spec til 80 and perhaps beyond, but I will enjoy learning SV and seeing how the numbers and "fun" factor weigh against my, so far Hunter life long favorite BM.
And I've learned this much so far:
Stats- Hit(til capped) > Agility > Stamina and Intellect are about equal? Crit-AP> ArP?
Correct me if I'm wrong please
Shot rotation priorities:
Kill > Serpent > Black > Explosive > Aimed/Multi > Steady > Auto..... Why no Arcane Shot or where would you put it?
Pet:
Wolf
Macros:
Not one really that can manage Black Arrow and Serpent Sting debuff/ effect timers, but the BM Steady, Auto, Kill Command macro works well for weaving Steadies and activating Kill Command. I'll look up some macro logic/ help sites and try to find one that will help with Black Arrow, Explosive, Aimed, Multi and Arcane....but we'll see, SV wasn't meant to have a faceroll macro, but anything to help from pressing 5+ buttons for 1 shot rotation would be nice.
Quote:
Why no Arcane Shot or where would you put it?
Explosive Shot replaces Arcane. They trigger the same cooldown, just like Multi-Shot and Aimed Shot. (And even if they didn't, Arcane Shot uses up Lock and Load procs--not good!)
Thanks for the reply.....I figured it out on my own when I got home from work and tried using Arcane in my SV rotation and found out it used the same CD as Explosive....I then proceeded to take it off of my hotbar.
I've been looking around for some macros to help with the SV rotation and have found that because of the GCD attached to Black Arrow, Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, Aimed and Multi...and the way macros work in WoW, there isn't a reliable macro (/castrandom is not reliable) that will yield equal DPS to hand weaving....<sigh> Oh well, guess that comes with the territory of higher DPS eh?
Liking it so far, but again, won't be able to truly have fun with it til I get to 80 and into instances where I can unload the full potential of the spec.
I've been looking around for some macros to help with the SV rotation and have found that because of the GCD attached to Black Arrow, Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, Aimed and Multi...and the way macros work in WoW, there isn't a reliable macro (/castrandom is not reliable) that will yield equal DPS to hand weaving....<sigh> Oh well, guess that comes with the territory of higher DPS eh?
Liking it so far, but again, won't be able to truly have fun with it til I get to 80 and into instances where I can unload the full potential of the spec.
That's by design. Blizzard wants players to have to think about the buttons they push and in what order. Just mashing one button isn't a meaningful display of skill to them (and I agree; plus, it's boring 
).
Edited, Nov 5th 2009 4:12pm by Norellicus
). Edited, Nov 5th 2009 4:12pm by Norellicus
You mean facerolling and button mashing aren't valid DPS tools anymore? /sarcasm
Yeah I know it's intended, but I was just trying to find a way to put a few things on one button rather than having to hit Mark-SS-BA-Explosive-Aimed/Multi-Steady-Steady-Explosive-LNL PROC WEEE Explosive...wait..Explosive-SS-Aimed/Multi-BA... (you get the idea) and be able to actually watch the fight and have an easier time paying attention to what's going on so that I know when and where to (or not) move. I guess I'll just have to learn to deal with it, but making it so you have a few less buttons to press would be nice.
On that note however, I often wonder how/ why Blizzard could intentionally create a spec or rotation so intense that watching CD's, debuff timers, procs and buff timers is part of it while simultaneously creating encounters where focusing on your rotation too intensely will have a detrimental effect on the raid/ party or just you.
How many Healers or CD intense specs like SV Hunters actually see the fights they are taking part in rather than watching your CD's or party health so intensely that you have to rely on another addon that beaps, screams, distorts the screen or something to get you to pay attention to whats going on? /rant
Yeah I know it's intended, but I was just trying to find a way to put a few things on one button rather than having to hit Mark-SS-BA-Explosive-Aimed/Multi-Steady-Steady-Explosive-LNL PROC WEEE Explosive...wait..Explosive-SS-Aimed/Multi-BA... (you get the idea) and be able to actually watch the fight and have an easier time paying attention to what's going on so that I know when and where to (or not) move. I guess I'll just have to learn to deal with it, but making it so you have a few less buttons to press would be nice.
On that note however, I often wonder how/ why Blizzard could intentionally create a spec or rotation so intense that watching CD's, debuff timers, procs and buff timers is part of it while simultaneously creating encounters where focusing on your rotation too intensely will have a detrimental effect on the raid/ party or just you.
How many Healers or CD intense specs like SV Hunters actually see the fights they are taking part in rather than watching your CD's or party health so intensely that you have to rely on another addon that beaps, screams, distorts the screen or something to get you to pay attention to whats going on? /rant
Katchii wrote:
On that note however, I often wonder how/ why Blizzard could intentionally create a spec or rotation so intense that watching CD's, debuff timers, procs and buff timers is part of it while simultaneously creating encounters where focusing on your rotation too intensely will have a detrimental effect on the raid/ party or just you.
Its called feral DPS.
Numbers for those that can do it good are insane. If you can't watch 8 timers/procs and pay attention to the encounter not so much.
The eight are: Mangle, Rake, Rip, Savage Roar, Tigers Fury, Berserk, Omen of Clarity, Feral Faerie Fire. The DPS is really good if you can keep them all running. Falls off fast if you can't.
Plus as a kicker for bonus DPS you can weave in Ferocious Bite but at the peril of dropping buffs/debuffs.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Katchii wrote:
Mark-SS-BA-Explosive-Aimed/Multi-Steady-Steady-Explosive-LNL PROC WEEE Explosive...wait..Explosive-SS-Aimed/Multi-BA... (you get the idea)
First 30ish seconds of SV rotation, if you don't get a LnL proc.
And if you do it's three explosive shots in a row, not two.
Edit: I'd also like to say that a Feral's rotation is like a more complex SV rotation with less margin for error.
And a SV rotation isn't particularly hard to do.
Explosive Shot > 1 > 2 > 3 > Explosive Shot > repeat until boss is dead and fill in Black Arrow > Serpent Sting > Aimed > Steady for the 1, 2 and 3.
It gets annoying when Kill Shot comes into play because Kill Shot does more damage than Explosive Shot.
Edited, Nov 7th 2009 11:21am by Aethien
Quote:
First 30ish seconds of SV rotation, if you don't get a LnL proc.
And if you do it's three explosive shots in a row, not two.
And if you do it's three explosive shots in a row, not two.
Good point, I haven't played with the SV spec much yet since I haven't been instancing at all and my wolf isn't lvl 80 yet, but you're absolutely correct, LnL allows for 2 explosives without triggering the GCD which means that it won't be on cooldown after the second shot so a third one will still be able to go... good to know, can't wait to start actually putting all of these tips and information to good use blowing **** up in instances.
Keep the info coming, but I'll be looking stuff up myself, because that's what people who want to be good are supposed to do right? ;D
Thanks!
Just make sure not to overwrite the Explosive debuffs when under the effects of Lock and Load, it will kill your DPS. I don't have a timer or anything fancy, I just wait till the debuff on the boss is around half then refresh.
LnL procs are the oasis of peace in the button-spamming storm of the SV rotation.
ExS > wait > ExS > Wait > ExS.
it's great :)
ExS > wait > ExS > Wait > ExS.
it's great :)
You wait between explosive shots? I stick an aimed or steady in there, the GCD is just enough time for the ExS to tick.
I've had an unused BM spec for a while, and took it to the raid yesterday because we needed my worm for the acid spit. I was surprised to see myself only about 500 dps down from my SV spec, and that was with a Tencity pet. I tried comparing on a target dummy today but my BM spec needed to use viper aspect a LOT more often, so I was unable to get a hard comparison without Replenishment being involved.
I've had an unused BM spec for a while, and took it to the raid yesterday because we needed my worm for the acid spit. I was surprised to see myself only about 500 dps down from my SV spec, and that was with a Tencity pet. I tried comparing on a target dummy today but my BM spec needed to use viper aspect a LOT more often, so I was unable to get a hard comparison without Replenishment being involved.
selebrin wrote:
You wait between explosive shots? I stick an aimed or steady in there, the GCD is just enough time for the ExS to tick.
You only need to wait 0.5 seconds after the explosive shot.
The GCD is 1.5 seconds.
Thus for every shot you weave in between you delay your explosive shot 1 seconds, and that ends up costing you dps.
The only thing worth weaving in between is Kill Shot.
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
selebrin wrote:
You wait between explosive shots? I stick an aimed or steady in there, the GCD is just enough time for the ExS to tick.
You only need to wait 0.5 seconds after the explosive shot.
The GCD is 1.5 seconds.
Thus for every shot you weave in between you delay your explosive shot 1 seconds, and that ends up costing you dps.
The only thing worth weaving in between is Kill Shot.
Ok that's odd. The numbers agree with you, but when I do it my way I see the last tick go off just before the next ExS hits, and that's with slipping another shot in. My system lag's probably doing something funky with when I see things go off. Glad I brought it up, even if I thought I was right, because I would never have noticed.
It's not lag, it's travel time.
All shots have a bit of delay so it looks more like they are actually flying towards your target and you don't instantly see the damage while the arrow/spell is still in the air.
So while you might not see the last tick of explosive shot until you fire your aimed/steady, your next explosive shot won't land until a second later.
All shots have a bit of delay so it looks more like they are actually flying towards your target and you don't instantly see the damage while the arrow/spell is still in the air.
So while you might not see the last tick of explosive shot until you fire your aimed/steady, your next explosive shot won't land until a second later.
So after trying out SV spec, getting my wolf pet to 80 and gemming and enchanting accordingly, SV is awesome. I beat out everything else that is equally well geared as well as some folks who are better geared but just not as good at what they do as I am.
I also came to the realization that being a sub-par DPS spec in a DPS central class is just retarded.
I still love BM for it's utility in soloing and regular 5 man stuff where your pet can actualy tank some stuff, but for the serious fights where you need to squeeze out every last bit of DPS, being the superior DPS spec wins out hands down.
So, thanks all for helping me realize I was stupid and showing me the light =D
I'm now putting out about 3.4k DPS without trying too hard and I dont' even have a 200 level item in every slot (hodge podge of 187-219 stuff)
Gurzlak on Terenas if you want to check it out, although the gear is no where near Æthien on his OVER 9000! thread...which makes me cry with envy, but whatever....eventually.
I also came to the realization that being a sub-par DPS spec in a DPS central class is just retarded.
I still love BM for it's utility in soloing and regular 5 man stuff where your pet can actualy tank some stuff, but for the serious fights where you need to squeeze out every last bit of DPS, being the superior DPS spec wins out hands down.
So, thanks all for helping me realize I was stupid and showing me the light =D
I'm now putting out about 3.4k DPS without trying too hard and I dont' even have a 200 level item in every slot (hodge podge of 187-219 stuff)
Gurzlak on Terenas if you want to check it out, although the gear is no where near Æthien on his OVER 9000! thread...which makes me cry with envy, but whatever....eventually.
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