Subtlety levelling and loving it.Follow

I know from all the posts that going into the Subtlety tree is not favoured at the lowest levels and is supposed to be slower levelling which perhaps it is but i think it's a perfect way to learn Rogue ways.

Starting from the fact i wanted a rogue for a long time and have tried twice before and tried both the other trees i never ever got past level 30 and believe me i found them really hard work and finally with them sitting unused i deleted them.

Now i am in what i think is a far better tree to level with and already at level 34 as it suits my play style as i love the faster stealth -25% running i can easily live with if it means i am not having to fight every mob to get to my target and i have found as i usually keep to mobs a few levels below me when my attacks crit its an extremely fast kill in usually around two hits max so not exactly a weak build , perhaps i am unusual in loving the sneaking around but the sneaking up behind and pick pocketing mobs before killing them is now a real pleasure and rather profitable as it is almost doubling my looting coinage and i know as i get to higher mobs i should have gold starting to flow into my bags as i fully intend to pick the pockets of every possible mob that i kill .

What i lack is knowing a suitable way to invest my talents to be more efficient as most of what i have read about the Subtlety tree is mainly for PvP usage and that is something i never do but even that will become pretty obvious as i learn and i just wish there were less interesting talents to make the path to Shadow Dance easier to figure out.

What i would like is to hear from others that have recently levelled in the Subtlety tree not from ages ago as so much has changed in the last few updates to Rogue trees as i am sure there must be a few out there that have done it and i am curious as to what they think and how they did it.

Well, ever since the launch of WOTLK the damage of every class has been given such a tremendous boost you could level unspecced and do a half-decent job at it. Leveling holy as a priest will actually get you to 80 close to as fast as shadow will. Leveling as disc might even well be faster, these days. It's for this reason that subtlety does have some merits; seeing as a talent like Malice or Imp. Kidney Shot isn't going to do you much good, you might as well spice up your cooldowns so that you can 2-shot a mob every so much seconds. I do still think that combat is overal faster pre-50, though. As combat you simply run up to an enemy, melee him dead, and move on. You win so much time on not having to stealth or positioning yourself right. From 50 and on, Assassination is hands down the most effective tree to level in, though I'm thinking that at around 67 building a spec that grabs Puncturing Wounds and Slaughter from the Shadows might actually be at least close to Mut's killing speed.

Regardless of all that; what's simply the fastest has been known for ages - that isn't too interesting right now (though will become more interesting again with Cata's revamps). If you're trying something different and you're finding niches to put Subtlety to work, it's all good; as long as you're enjoying yourself. The only real change I'd like to see made to the Subtlety change would be to break it up a little bit to allow for more synergy with other trees - a Premeditation/Overkill build is pointless, and if you go any higher to reach Shadowstep you'll also reach HaT which will make speccing into Seal Fate pointless. And with 44 points in Subtlety you might as well Grab Slaughter From the Shadows to stop your Backstab from sucking. And with 50 points in Subtlety the only 'synergy' left with the Assassination tree is grabbing Cold Blood over Shadowdance. But seeing as both provide burst and Shadowdance does a better job at it, going for Cold Blood is somewhat pointless. I guess this is more of an off-topic pet peeve of mine, but having no other option than to either stop in Subtlety past Preparation or go all the way up to Shadowdance does annoy me from time to time.

Though I'm not much on Subtlety now, I also leveled that way. I tend to favor control and choosing my fights when playing such a squishy, nonhealing class. I tried combat and I felt like a warrior in leather. Yeah, things died; Just not without me taking hits as well. I found subtlety to be quicker in that it had no downtime. Even though I'm aware that the it was probably offset by the killing speed and AoE abilities of combat. /shrug.

So far I've always recommended Subt to friends who are leveling rogues and getting tired of the low levels and have got nothing but positive feedback from them. Of course, I tell them to grab two good dagger and give Mutilate a go when they have the option. >:) I <3 my Mutilate.

While that's completely true, if the OP is happy playing that way and taking their time, we can't stop them.

As the OP is level 34, no, it really doesn't.

I would say i am impressed by Subtlety still as i am averaging around 100 dps by recount which is a total of a few levels worth of fights and at level 36 and a highest hit of 742 it sure does not suck that badly and that is with a pair of rubbish daggers and some of my gear is about 6 levels or more below my current level.

As i said in my first post that i see has been down rated for some reason i am not suggesting people go into Sub to level but just to say it is a viable choice ( if a little slower ) these days and if you do not like Sub that is your choice but not mine.

What i did ask for is comments from those that had tried it recently not from those that had not tried it to level with as that is completely pointless , as how can you give a comment on something that has had so many changes that you know little about ?

i do understand Theo it is not the fastest way for most but for what i am doing it is pretty much perfect to be almost level 37 in 3 days 13 hours play including a lot of leather farming for my leather working and having cooking at high level and my fishing is high as well so i do not think it is that bad .

Basically, to sum up:

Blah blah blah, I'm a unique flower, blah blah blah I like having fun when I level even though leveling as combat is almost exactly the same.

Glad you're having fun, but UR DOIN IT RONG.

Well Theo i do respect your advice on end game needs but i am sorry it is so obvious you have not even tried to level as Sub recently if at all ? or you did try it in the distant past and hated it .

That is also obvious by your last post when you had no answers but still needed to comment , i have not said it is a better way to level or that i know better than others that have levelled a rogue but after trying all three trees recently the only one that works for me is Sub as i have hardly died at all and as i do not group i find it a better way to solo most of the game content.

The hilarious part is that I played Sub almost exclusively for more than two years, and it's still to this day my favorite tree.

Leveling as daggers is not viable until you can get a non-positional ability such as Mutilate; had you said you were leveling as Sub and were using anything but daggers, I wouldn't have thought you were a complete idiot, I would have just thought that you liked playing Sub.

But BS/Ambush is an incredibly bad way to level, unless you outgear the mobs you're leveling on by an extreme amount (i.e. leveling 70-80 with BT/SWP equivalent gear).


That's being "so hostile"? Good God, you must have the thinnest skin of anyone alive, to be offended by that.

Also, I love it when you stalk me. It makes me giddy.

Sandra, I'm glad you're not taking to offense what Theo has been saying like a lot of people would (i.e. those that "lash" out back at him and going down to his level). Just wanted to get that in there while I'm in a nice Halloween mood =P

He does know what he's talking about when he actually gives advice, but let's hope that now that he's started playing again, he'll finally update the sticky ;-)

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 11:07pm by xNocturnalSunx

Practical is a good definition for viable in this instance; the purpose of leveling is to reach level cap. Viable builds will achieve this goal in a reasonable manner. Viable is a perfectly acceptable and commonly-used term across all WoW forums when talking about builds, gear, etc.


Just gonna quote to you what the thread is about:


The implication is that Sandra thinks that Sub may have changed enough to be viable.

It hasn't. I've forgotten more about the rogue class than most of this forum knows (and I've very possibly spent more gold respeccing), ergo my opinion is generally the most valid.

Edit: All that aside, it is indeed my opinion, and people are free to stop taking me so seriously and keep playing the game the way they want.

I'm going to call them stupid for it, but that comes with the territory.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 11:55pm by Theophany

Stalking you? Sorry, I forgot you're the only person who reads more than one forum.

And no, I don't have thin skin, it was a simple observation. You're attacking somebody for saying that they find a certain playstyle fun. Try to dress it up as much as you want with defining what's "viable" and saying "oh no, they think they meant this, but they really meant this", but at the end of the day all you're doing is taking every opportunity you can to be an ***.

I leveled Sub...a long, long time ago. It worked decently enough for me.

Granted, Subtlety was a different bird back then. This was all pre-2.3, meaning Shadowstep still had a 15 second cooldown and Hemo was still considered primary Combo Point builder, not a "debuff" as Blizzard now considers it.

I used a weapon swapping mod, so I could use Ambush, but not toss out wimpy Hemos. One can still do the same thing now, in theory, but Hemo just hits like a wet noodle, slow weapon or fast.

Leveling sub does have some limited advantages over Mutlate with certain types of quests. The classic example would be the "go down into this cave and retrieve quest item X, or kill named NPC Y." Other specs/classes have to deal with clearing their way into the cave (or stealthing through it slightly slower than Sub) and dealing with respawns on the way out. For the Subtlety Rogue, its a simple snatch and grab (or drive by, as the case may be).

On the other hand, with a "kill 15 generic NPC Zs" sub is at an obvious disadvantage to Mutilate or Combat. Naturally, these sorts of quests typically outnumber the Snatch & Grab/Named NPC quests, hence why Mutilate is generally preferred.

And while I do like to avoid snowflakethink, when possible, there is something to be said for the most fun spec being the fastest to level. Mutilate very well may (and does) average X kills/minute more than Subtlety, but the greater kill speed does nothing for you if the spec bores you to the point of AFKing in stealth every thirty minutes to get a drink/smoke a cigarette/check your Facebook/see what's on TV/etc.

TL,DR: If it works for you, Kudos.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 1:38am by Pennuial