Greetings,
Lately my (real life) brother and myself, both playing an enhancement shaman, are getting unsure about the choice of using Windfury or Flametongue on our offhand weapon. Combined with this question we are at this point in time unsure which glyphs should accompany this choice in order to maximize our (potential) damage output.
What is the general consensus on this subject?
Thanks in advance!
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Dual wielding offhand: Windfury or Flametongue?Follow
I could be totally jacked up with this. However, to my understanding if you are using slow/slow then go with WF/WF. Using slow/fast go with WF/FT. As always with leveling use whatever seems to be killing things the fastest.
Through Northrend I was using a 2.6 MH and a 1.6 OH and using WF/FT and things where melting in front of me. I think there is an ongoing discussion of this on EJ, not sure what the outcome is this week.
Through Northrend I was using a 2.6 MH and a 1.6 OH and using WF/FT and things where melting in front of me. I think there is an ongoing discussion of this on EJ, not sure what the outcome is this week.
2 posts
I've always used WF/FT even with slow/slow. There's something on EJ's about WF/FT only becoming viable after you've specced into Elemental Fury, so you might want to stick to WF/WF for levelling until you're high enough to get this (on the other hand, the extra spell damage from FT might give you more survivability through better heals).
For glyphs, Stormstrike and Windfury (even with WF/FT) are the two best. I've no idea what the third place is, though I imagine it's pretty close, and any of Flametongue, Shocking, Lavalash or Lightning Bolt should be very viable.
For glyphs, Stormstrike and Windfury (even with WF/FT) are the two best. I've no idea what the third place is, though I imagine it's pretty close, and any of Flametongue, Shocking, Lavalash or Lightning Bolt should be very viable.
Thanks for your replies.
No offense meant, but I am surely not levelling anymore.
Rinkkel: with WF/WF or WF/FT things are always melting, no matter the differences :-)
Dirichlet: I think you have a point in your first remark. I AM specced into Elemental Fury and I think that might tip the balance. But I am still not sure about this. I will test it on some dummies for a long time and then still it is a static fight test... Oh and I have the gut feeling that you are wrong on your Glyph advice. Though I do not know what the correct answer is myself.
Anyone else has an opinion? Gaudion still around perhaps? ;-)
Always respected him for his (albeit quite harsh) judgements.
No offense meant, but I am surely not levelling anymore.
Rinkkel: with WF/WF or WF/FT things are always melting, no matter the differences :-)
Dirichlet: I think you have a point in your first remark. I AM specced into Elemental Fury and I think that might tip the balance. But I am still not sure about this. I will test it on some dummies for a long time and then still it is a static fight test... Oh and I have the gut feeling that you are wrong on your Glyph advice. Though I do not know what the correct answer is myself.
Anyone else has an opinion? Gaudion still around perhaps? ;-)
Always respected him for his (albeit quite harsh) judgements.
General consensus is WF/FT regardless of OH weapon speed. The old thinking was that WF/WF meant you would have a better chance to reach the optimal WF PPM by getting twice as many hits outside the Windfury ICD for a chance to proc. I've been told that when 3.0 went live, there was something wonky with the damage scaling so that a fast weapon would produce more damage over time than a slow weapon with FT, which further fueled the WF/WF philosophy. FT damage has been normalized, however, so now WF/FT is regarded as the best overall. You might get an occasional "extra" WF proc from WF/WF, but that's offset by the additional ongoing damage from FT + bonus Lava Lash damage (SP from FT becomes relatively insignificant as your gear progresses).
Also, Stormstrike, Windfury, and Feral Spirits are the glyphs of choice for raiding enh shaman these days.
Also, Stormstrike, Windfury, and Feral Spirits are the glyphs of choice for raiding enh shaman these days.
I did some tests on a dummy the other day to see what I could get. WF/FT provided more consistent damage. WF/WF had some higher damage bursts and at first seemed to be better but over time it ended 200-300 dps below WF/FT (this is with slow/slow).
I did multiple heroics to see if the numbers came out the same and they did. Over the course of H UK WF/FT had a noticable lead over WF/WF.
I did multiple heroics to see if the numbers came out the same and they did. Over the course of H UK WF/FT had a noticable lead over WF/WF.
Thanks! Did the same on a target dummy as you did Ekaterinodar but did not have the time to test it in an instance. (I am blaming YOU, job)
Had a difference of 150-200 dps myself, but could be geardependent (not quite optimized, around item level 200-219).
Had a difference of 150-200 dps myself, but could be geardependent (not quite optimized, around item level 200-219).
I'm leveling a shaman myself. I always went WF/FT once i got to dual-wield. I don't know if this is correct, but was told WF/WF is not ideal because the offhand has a chance to "steal" the windfury attack for much lower damage than a main-hand proc, and since a proc can only occur every 3 seconds it could possibly happen multiple times in a row with similar speed weapons (i''m using the 2.8 speed heirloom maces).
Also, lava lash is surprisingly damaging with FT on the offhand weapon, and very spammable.
Edited, Oct 18th 2009 12:55am by ArtemisEnteri
Also, lava lash is surprisingly damaging with FT on the offhand weapon, and very spammable.
Edited, Oct 18th 2009 12:55am by ArtemisEnteri
Artemis, it used to be so that double WF with Slow/Slow was the bomb, even with the internal 3 sec cooldown.
Apparently with the coming of Lava Lash and its bonus when FT is on the offhand weapon (and with the 2 piece setbonus for Conquerer level items), WF/FT is nowadays the way to go. Not to forget the immense spellpower we do these days and the additional we get from FT). While levelling it doesnt matter at all imo since it is THAT simple these days ;-)
Edit: added Slow/Slow.
Edited, Oct 20th 2009 3:21am by Immunios
Apparently with the coming of Lava Lash and its bonus when FT is on the offhand weapon (and with the 2 piece setbonus for Conquerer level items), WF/FT is nowadays the way to go. Not to forget the immense spellpower we do these days and the additional we get from FT). While levelling it doesnt matter at all imo since it is THAT simple these days ;-)
Edit: added Slow/Slow.
Edited, Oct 20th 2009 3:21am by Immunios
My lil enhancement shaman just hit 46, and I was told once I picked up lava lash to go with WF/FT with the slowest weapon in the offhand. Dunno how useful that is.
Flametongue gives you an additional amount of spell power and increases the off-hand damage on Lava Lash by 25%. Considering Lava Lash isn't a very powerful attack to begin with, 25% extra doesn't do a whole lot. The additional spell power is nice for the occasional Maelstrom LB or CL, but with Windfury on your off-hand, your Lava Lash becomes quite powerful as it gives Windfury a chance to proc on your off-hand outside of regular auto-attacks.
Basically, Lava Lash becomes a 125% off-hand attack or 20% chance of proccing Windfury on your off-hand (which hits for considerably more than Lava Lash with Flametongue) every 6 seconds. I don't know if off-hand can still clip main-hand Windfury attacks, but if that's the case you might want to go WF/FT with fast weapons and WF/WF with slow weapons.
I'm rolling with WF/WF on heirloom maces (2.8 speed, I think) and stuff just dies.
Basically, Lava Lash becomes a 125% off-hand attack or 20% chance of proccing Windfury on your off-hand (which hits for considerably more than Lava Lash with Flametongue) every 6 seconds. I don't know if off-hand can still clip main-hand Windfury attacks, but if that's the case you might want to go WF/FT with fast weapons and WF/WF with slow weapons.
I'm rolling with WF/WF on heirloom maces (2.8 speed, I think) and stuff just dies.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Thank you Mazra, I'm going to test that now.
I'd got WF/FT on Slow/Slow since Windfury has a set PPM, regardless of if you have one weapon or two. As a result, while DWing, it may mostly guarantee all procs, you don't get nearly the effect from the second one.
Plus, Flametongue will boost your damage in a variety of ways. Besides actually boosting your melee damage, it'll boost your damage from Maelstrom Weapon uses, fire totems, it's own damage (ironically, FT gets 10% SP) as well as anything else that has a SP coefficient. Plus, if you use the LL glyph, it's an additional 10% damage. I don't know if this is a worthwhile glyph or not, but it's important to note none the less.
[EDITED for flow]
[EDIT2]
Please see my next post regarding a possible fix regarding PPM.
Edited, Nov 15th 2009 2:41am by idiggory
Plus, Flametongue will boost your damage in a variety of ways. Besides actually boosting your melee damage, it'll boost your damage from Maelstrom Weapon uses, fire totems, it's own damage (ironically, FT gets 10% SP) as well as anything else that has a SP coefficient. Plus, if you use the LL glyph, it's an additional 10% damage. I don't know if this is a worthwhile glyph or not, but it's important to note none the less.
[EDITED for flow]
[EDIT2]
Please see my next post regarding a possible fix regarding PPM.
Edited, Nov 15th 2009 2:41am by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Anyone know what the PPM on Windfury is? If it's 2 or something like that then I'd go with Flametongue as well. If it's 5 then maybe not.
In any case, my RNG luck sucks, hence I've found that WF/WF gives me more DPS.
Edit: Also, since someone apparently is a little confused about crazyrick's post and my response, we are not debating end-game raiding here. Crazyrick mentioned he was in his 40's with his character and I'm leveling up as well. Lava Lash doing crap damage at those levels is the only reason I'm considering a WF/WF setup. Also, random ratedowns are annoying and I guess I'll have to ask Wordaen to look into it. Yeah, yeah, Segway and stuff... I know.
Edited, Nov 15th 2009 4:26am by Mazra
In any case, my RNG luck sucks, hence I've found that WF/WF gives me more DPS.
Edit: Also, since someone apparently is a little confused about crazyrick's post and my response, we are not debating end-game raiding here. Crazyrick mentioned he was in his 40's with his character and I'm leveling up as well. Lava Lash doing crap damage at those levels is the only reason I'm considering a WF/WF setup. Also, random ratedowns are annoying and I guess I'll have to ask Wordaen to look into it. Yeah, yeah, Segway and stuff... I know.
Edited, Nov 15th 2009 4:26am by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
I guess WF/WF may be best for leveling, as it would increase your chances of a WF proc during a short fight (and this would make things way faster). Though, once you get Maelstrom, I imagine FT will start to out-parse it.
[EDIT]
Upon searching, I may have been wrong about it being PPM. It may be a percentage chance. However, due to the 3 sec CD, its proc rate is WAY lower than the tooltip suggests. Apparently, DWing will bring it up to 17-18% proc rate instead of a 14-16% one, or something like that. I think I'd still go FT for leveling. You may burst down a few less mobs, but you'll have a more constant pace when fighting and stronger spells/heals.'
I'm still not sure of the numbers, though.
Edited, Nov 15th 2009 2:40am by idiggory
[EDIT]
Upon searching, I may have been wrong about it being PPM. It may be a percentage chance. However, due to the 3 sec CD, its proc rate is WAY lower than the tooltip suggests. Apparently, DWing will bring it up to 17-18% proc rate instead of a 14-16% one, or something like that. I think I'd still go FT for leveling. You may burst down a few less mobs, but you'll have a more constant pace when fighting and stronger spells/heals.'
I'm still not sure of the numbers, though.
Edited, Nov 15th 2009 2:40am by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Mazra wrote:
Anyone know what the PPM on Windfury is? If it's 2 or something like that then I'd go with Flametongue as well. If it's 5 then maybe not.
As idiggory mentioned, Windfury has an internal CD of 3 seconds. Windfury on both weapons...especially if those weapons are a different speed...can reduce the time after that 3 second window expires before you see another WF proc. The downside is that if your OH weapon procs the Windfury, that proc will do less damage than if your MH procs it. On the opposite side of the coin, if you are running WF?FT and your first MH hit outside of that window doesn't proc a WF (which is not at all uncommon), you end up with fewer procs over time. It's sort of a toss up, but in the end it really comes down to personal preference while leveling.
Edited, Nov 16th 2009 5:29pm by AureliusSir
Mazra wrote:
Flametongue gives you an additional amount of spell power and increases the off-hand damage on Lava Lash by 25%. Considering Lava Lash isn't a very powerful attack to begin with, 25% extra doesn't do a whole lot. The additional spell power is nice for the occasional Maelstrom LB or CL, but with Windfury on your off-hand, your Lava Lash becomes quite powerful as it gives Windfury a chance to proc on your off-hand outside of regular auto-attacks.
Basically, Lava Lash becomes a 125% off-hand attack or 20% chance of proccing Windfury on your off-hand (which hits for considerably more than Lava Lash with Flametongue) every 6 seconds. I don't know if off-hand can still clip main-hand Windfury attacks, but if that's the case you might want to go WF/FT with fast weapons and WF/WF with slow weapons.
I'm rolling with WF/WF on heirloom maces (2.8 speed, I think) and stuff just dies.
Basically, Lava Lash becomes a 125% off-hand attack or 20% chance of proccing Windfury on your off-hand (which hits for considerably more than Lava Lash with Flametongue) every 6 seconds. I don't know if off-hand can still clip main-hand Windfury attacks, but if that's the case you might want to go WF/FT with fast weapons and WF/WF with slow weapons.
I'm rolling with WF/WF on heirloom maces (2.8 speed, I think) and stuff just dies.
And from reading EJ it seems that if you have WF on your main hand you have a 20% chance of proccing it outside the 3sec ICD, with WF on both weapons this rises to 36% per attack.
So not only is the second windfury less effective but Flametongue also adds an extra few hundred damage to lava lash and the spellpower enhances your shocks, static shock procs, magma totem damage and Maelstrom LB's/CL's.
All in all I'd say that 40-50% of an enhancement shaman's dps is from spells.
And I'm purely talking endgame here.
Edited, Nov 17th 2009 1:13pm by Aethien
I picked up my shammy again at lv 46 and brought him to nearly 50 today. This is just anecdotal, but i tested WF/WF against WF/FT (on the heirloom maces, so 2.8/2.8 speed). After lots of switching back and forth, WF/FT feels much more powerful.
Windfury proc rate seems basically identical on each setup, but what i noticed a lot with dual windfury was sometimes it would proc on the offhand, and then the wf procs would be 150-200 damage each, compared to nearly 400 damage procs from the mainhand. I like using buffed lava lash to fill in the gap between stormstrikes > earthshock combos too, makes the rotation feel much smoother. And the little spellpower boost makes shocks hit quite hard.
I'm using the Glyph of Stormstrike (increases the stormstrike debuff from +20 to +28% bonus damage from nature effects) and Glyph of Windfury Weapon (increases wf proc chance per swing from 20 to 22%). Did AB and WSG quite a lot and i'm completely wrecking faces, quite often if i meet a lv 40-44 clothie they will be summarily "one-shot" by a windfury proc off stormstrike. Average hp is 2 to 3k, i've seen windfury double crit for over 1800 damage. Not counting the white hits :D
Windfury proc rate seems basically identical on each setup, but what i noticed a lot with dual windfury was sometimes it would proc on the offhand, and then the wf procs would be 150-200 damage each, compared to nearly 400 damage procs from the mainhand. I like using buffed lava lash to fill in the gap between stormstrikes > earthshock combos too, makes the rotation feel much smoother. And the little spellpower boost makes shocks hit quite hard.
I'm using the Glyph of Stormstrike (increases the stormstrike debuff from +20 to +28% bonus damage from nature effects) and Glyph of Windfury Weapon (increases wf proc chance per swing from 20 to 22%). Did AB and WSG quite a lot and i'm completely wrecking faces, quite often if i meet a lv 40-44 clothie they will be summarily "one-shot" by a windfury proc off stormstrike. Average hp is 2 to 3k, i've seen windfury double crit for over 1800 damage. Not counting the white hits :D
After my Shaman hit Outland, I've got to take back my WF/WF statement.
Once your chance to hit mobs goes up (once you hit Outland you'll out level a zone much faster), WF/FT becomes much more powerful. Also, Outland buffs your gear incredibly much, making your hits do much more damage. Often stuff doesn't live through a main-hand Windfury proc. More attack power also gives more spell power which buffs Flametongue procs (and Lava Lash?).
Also, after I maxed out Maelstrom, yes, it procs a craptastic lot (which is awesome). When I wrote the last post I had not maxed it out and it was not uncommon to not get a full Maelstrom during a fight. Now it just gets maxed out constantly.
Soon as I have 1k I'm going back to Enhancement. Elemental is fun, but horribly squishy.
Once your chance to hit mobs goes up (once you hit Outland you'll out level a zone much faster), WF/FT becomes much more powerful. Also, Outland buffs your gear incredibly much, making your hits do much more damage. Often stuff doesn't live through a main-hand Windfury proc. More attack power also gives more spell power which buffs Flametongue procs (and Lava Lash?).
Also, after I maxed out Maelstrom, yes, it procs a craptastic lot (which is awesome). When I wrote the last post I had not maxed it out and it was not uncommon to not get a full Maelstrom during a fight. Now it just gets maxed out constantly.
Soon as I have 1k I'm going back to Enhancement. Elemental is fun, but horribly squishy.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Sorry to thread jack a little but i have the same exact question regarding my shammy
The only difference being is i'm still leveling mine. I have both Venerable Mass of McGowan on my enhance shammy and he's level 57. I've been using WF/FT and glyph of lava lash but lately I was wondering if WF/WF would be better with glyph of WF?
I don't think Glyph of Windfury would benefit a WF/WF setup much since that setup already deals with Windfury proc overlapping (off-hand "steals" main-hand procs, from what I've gathered). It would probably be useful for a WF/FT setup in combination with Glyph of Lava Lash (if that glyph is useful), but I'm not into Shaman cookie cutter glyph setups.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
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