A few healers have had a hard time with me when I'm tanking with my HP shooting down very quick, especially (but not exclusively) in ToC. I figure I haven't get too bad gear and I think my talents are ok so would you decent DK tanks mind having a look and see if I have made a fundamental mistake somewhere.
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Azgara
ps. I know the block is irrelevant on my neck and I will be getting the emblem one shortly
Edited, Oct 11th 2009 11:37pm by ViralVD
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Posted: Oct 11 2009 at 8:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There's one thing that's itchy; it might be just me being confused here, but don't you need 545 defense skill to be uncrittable for raid bosses? EJ says 540, so I guess that's right, but 545 skill is exactly -6% crit chance which happens to be exactly the same amount as the druid talent gives them to become uncrittable. There's also the fact that your defense tooltip says you have 581 defense rating, while EJ says that to acquire that '540' defense skill "you need about 690 rating (at level 80) to hit that from the 400 defense skill a level 80 character will have." There's definitely something not in order here: whether it's you not being uncrittable, your tooltip misleading me or EJ being wrong, I can't say in my sleepy state, but if I were you I'd have another closer look at it.
against raidbosses, you need a 5,6% crit chance reduction which is provided by having 540 Defense.
And yes, DK's seem to be taking more dmg than other tanks, dunno why. I don't know why, but that's what I've heard and it feels like it as well when I'm on my healer.
So you'd best remember certain encounters / parts of encounters where you have problems and pop a defensive cooldown to go easy on the healer. For example, I always pop Icebound Fortitude after enganging the 3 faction champions since there is quite a bit of burst damage coming my way and some healers may not be able to cope with it.
And yes, DK's seem to be taking more dmg than other tanks, dunno why. I don't know why, but that's what I've heard and it feels like it as well when I'm on my healer.
So you'd best remember certain encounters / parts of encounters where you have problems and pop a defensive cooldown to go easy on the healer. For example, I always pop Icebound Fortitude after enganging the 3 faction champions since there is quite a bit of burst damage coming my way and some healers may not be able to cope with it.
I really don't see any problem with you. You shouldn't be that bad off...maybe it's fight mechanics?
Wortschmied wrote:
And yes, DK's seem to be taking more dmg than other tanks, dunno why. I don't know why, but that's what I've heard and it feels like it as well when I'm on my healer.
It's because their only mitigation comes from dodging and parrying attacks. They do have a cooldown which reduces incoming damage by 20%, the same as Druids with their Barkskin. I think the major difference is that Druids, while not being able to block or parry, have a much higher dodge rating and a larger health pool. And a bit more armor, I think.
If you're healing a good Warrior/Paladin, you'll notice that they take very little damage. Paladins have a core tanking spell which increases their chance to block by 30%, if I remember correctly. Blocked damage is very little if any at all, so they take very little damage (it's like having the Druid/DK cooldown on at all times). Warriors have Shield Block which increases their block chance by 100% for 10 seconds, meaning they take almost no physical damage for 10 seconds every 40 seconds. Furthermore, Paladins and Warriors have a cooldown which reduces all damage taken by 50% and 60%, meaning they have the ability to reduce incoming damage to almost nothing every once in a while.
As a healer I tend to prefer Paladins/Warriors with Warriors being my preference. I also have a hard time getting into groups with my DK because people see my relatively low health pool (28k) and refuse to take me. Can hardly blame them when there are people out there with 35-40k health. Still sucks, though.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Thanks for the clarification in the crit department, guess I was just being hazy. As for a couple of other things,
This is not true. I've heard exactly the same about protadins, feral druids and prot warriors. It's related more to the way we 'feel' incoming damage works as tanks and healers and our own experiences in encounters rather than on facts. DK's do not take more damage than other tanks. I am not saying all tanks are equal, but the difference in a reliable environment shouldn't even be noticeable. You might simply have healed more DK's in a bad gear/spec than other tanks.
To be honest, I've done it with less (27kish). As long as your healer has some decent gear (at least equal to yours, basically) and you don't stand in the poison, you should be ok. I do agree that ToC has higher requirements than other heroics though, though on the flipside, isn't that logically seen how it should be, seeing as ToC loot > all other heroic's loot?
While this is true, it goes, in my opinion, a bit far to tell someone to drop his raid crit immunity just so he can get a little more stamina. I think you should see it more as a "if you have to drop some stamina for health in your case, feel free, you can" rather than a "actively go and try to get rid of your defense so you can get more stamina".
While blood is argueably better than frost or unholy for heroics, you have to keep in mind that all builds are more or less equal and simply recommending blood "because it's better" doesn't work. Also, keep in mind that your Unholy Command variety is also only better in heroics; in raids, it's actually a lot worse than grabbing Mark of Blood.
Quote:
And yes, DK's seem to be taking more dmg than other tanks, dunno why. I don't know why, but that's what I've heard and it feels like it as well when I'm on my healer.
This is not true. I've heard exactly the same about protadins, feral druids and prot warriors. It's related more to the way we 'feel' incoming damage works as tanks and healers and our own experiences in encounters rather than on facts. DK's do not take more damage than other tanks. I am not saying all tanks are equal, but the difference in a reliable environment shouldn't even be noticeable. You might simply have healed more DK's in a bad gear/spec than other tanks.
Quote:
1) 28k health is looking for trouble in ToC heroic. When I was below 30k health, many healers flatout refuse to join the group because of that. But it's quite enough for the other heroics except maybe Hall of Lightning. Right now I'm sitting at 32k health unbuffered and life is good for heroic.
To be honest, I've done it with less (27kish). As long as your healer has some decent gear (at least equal to yours, basically) and you don't stand in the poison, you should be ok. I do agree that ToC has higher requirements than other heroics though, though on the flipside, isn't that logically seen how it should be, seeing as ToC loot > all other heroic's loot?
Quote:
3) 545 defense is too much. Yes it's true that you need 540 to be crit immune in Underlined TextRAIDUnderlined Text but trust me, you won't be tanking raid boss for the moment. So you need to bring down your defense to 535 to be crit immune in heroic. That leave you roughly 50 (5 defense raiting +-= 1 defense) defense raiting to be replaced by stamina or hit raiting. If I were you, I would replace any enchant that give me parry and\or dodge by stamina and\or hit raiting enchants and I would replace defense raiting enchants by the same stam/hit until you reach 535 defense.
While this is true, it goes, in my opinion, a bit far to tell someone to drop his raid crit immunity just so he can get a little more stamina. I think you should see it more as a "if you have to drop some stamina for health in your case, feel free, you can" rather than a "actively go and try to get rid of your defense so you can get more stamina".
Quote:
5) If I were you, I would tank as blood, not as frost. It's true that frost have more damage mitigation but there's 2 things really nice about blood 1) Death strike. It hit like a truck and heal you quite a lot at the same time. It really make the healer's life easier. 2) Heart strike: you hit 2 mobs at the same time -> More aggro without thinking about it. I would use the build suggested in Elitist Jerk Elitistjerks.com blood specs tank with 2 modifications so you can take Unholy Command (very handy when a mob run strait to your healer and you can pull it back quickly)
While blood is argueably better than frost or unholy for heroics, you have to keep in mind that all builds are more or less equal and simply recommending blood "because it's better" doesn't work. Also, keep in mind that your Unholy Command variety is also only better in heroics; in raids, it's actually a lot worse than grabbing Mark of Blood.
I switched to Frost the moment I had the gear to back up the loss of health. I simply don't like the Blood rotation and much prefer the increase in AOE control with Frost - a Howling Blast crit will glue mobs to you and being able to control overpulls with Hungering Cold is awesome.
As for the increased mitigation, I believe you get 2% less damage taken through Improved Frost Presence. And of course the increased Icebound Fortitude duration and Unbreakable Armor help every so often, but it's not like I'm spamming those abilities. I have them macro'd so if I feel my health is dropping a bit too fast, I can pop those and give the healer time to get back in the game.
I do miss the selfheals of Blood, but Hysteria and Vampiric Blood is what I wish I had the most. Could use some raid utility and I think it's poor design that Frost and Unholy don't get the Last Stand-ish ability of Vampiric Blood. Paladins get Lay on Hands, Druids Natural Instincts and Warriors Last Stand. Death Knights have to go deep in a certain talent tree to pick it up.
As for the increased mitigation, I believe you get 2% less damage taken through Improved Frost Presence. And of course the increased Icebound Fortitude duration and Unbreakable Armor help every so often, but it's not like I'm spamming those abilities. I have them macro'd so if I feel my health is dropping a bit too fast, I can pop those and give the healer time to get back in the game.
I do miss the selfheals of Blood, but Hysteria and Vampiric Blood is what I wish I had the most. Could use some raid utility and I think it's poor design that Frost and Unholy don't get the Last Stand-ish ability of Vampiric Blood. Paladins get Lay on Hands, Druids Natural Instincts and Warriors Last Stand. Death Knights have to go deep in a certain talent tree to pick it up.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
ViralVD wrote:
A few healers have had a hard time with me when I'm tanking with my HP shooting down very quick, especially (but not exclusively) in ToC. I figure I haven't get too bad gear and I think my talents are ok so would you decent DK tanks mind having a look and see if I have made a fundamental mistake somewhere.
Particularly in ToC, healers can get you into trouble if they don't keep diseases or poisons off of you. It's amazing the difference. My warrior tank is pretty solidly geared for heroics, and damage taken can stress a healer (read: I'm popping CDs and praying) if they're too stupid to take the debuffs off of you. As a corollary, if you can run with someone who can strip off diseases and poisons it can trivialize a lot of the tank damage for your healer.
2-3 things,
First, the 30k health magic number is more related to finding a group vs. actually doing the job. Alot of people (especially healers) feel unconfortable with a tank that has 25-28k health. Also, not all healers are created equal. I meet some healers that we're so good that I think I could've tanked it in dps gears. At 30k and over, everyone is more relaxed. I guess it has more to do with psychology then anything else.
Second, there's no point of keeping your defense at 540 and over when 99% of the time, you'll be doing heroic for badges farming. If you want to reach the highest health possible, everything helps.
Finaly, Blood is not the best specs available. None are. But by experience, it really works well in heroic where dps and healers can be extremly good or bad. In blood, you're a little more self reliant.
Khross
First, the 30k health magic number is more related to finding a group vs. actually doing the job. Alot of people (especially healers) feel unconfortable with a tank that has 25-28k health. Also, not all healers are created equal. I meet some healers that we're so good that I think I could've tanked it in dps gears. At 30k and over, everyone is more relaxed. I guess it has more to do with psychology then anything else.
Second, there's no point of keeping your defense at 540 and over when 99% of the time, you'll be doing heroic for badges farming. If you want to reach the highest health possible, everything helps.
Finaly, Blood is not the best specs available. None are. But by experience, it really works well in heroic where dps and healers can be extremly good or bad. In blood, you're a little more self reliant.
Khross
gtap wrote:
Finaly, Blood is not the best specs available. None are. But by experience, it really works well in heroic where dps and healers can be extremly good or bad. In blood, you're a little more self reliant.
Actually...
I would recommend Frost and not Blood to "puggers" because of the snap AOE aggro.
As you said yourself, you might run into some mixed company and trust me, Blood sucks for AOE aggro which is what you'll want in 90% of any heroic. Holding aggro on one target is easy, it's during trash pulls it might go wrong. I found Frost to handle trash much more efficiently. Howling Blast with the glyph ensures you hit the entire pack for not only 1.5k damage, but also applies a disease on them, allowing you to Blood Boil for much more damage. You can then pop Death & Decay for easy management if you want, or simply keep using Howling Blast and Blood Boil.
Blood tanking is... just.. *shudder*. First you have to apply diseases, then spread them, then Blood Boil (for increased damage, but still not as good as a Howling Blast) all while spamming Death & Decay and saying a prayer to the powers beyond.
Frost tanking, once you have the health to back up the loss of self-healing and increased stamina, is much more easy to handle. In my own humble opinion.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Cheers for all the replies. One think I guess the armory doesn't take the frost pressence buff into account. With no buffs on except being in frost pressence I have 29961 health. Think will be able to get rid of my def chest enchant for health of stats without dropping below 535. In the case of my gems after reading posts from other tanks on Alla I figured it was sort of a case of Avoidence/mitigation > stamina. I could probably get up to about 34-35k health if I got rid a lot of Parry. If I replaced all of my dragons eye gems with solid ones thats another 153 stamina.
Agro isn't a probem for me so I don't think I need to worry about getting my hit up any more it's quite rare that anyone pulls agro off me.
Again cheers for the answers I'll have a bit of a play around and see if I can get my health up, hopefully without losing too much avoidence (46% with HoW up atm).
Agro isn't a probem for me so I don't think I need to worry about getting my hit up any more it's quite rare that anyone pulls agro off me.
Again cheers for the answers I'll have a bit of a play around and see if I can get my health up, hopefully without losing too much avoidence (46% with HoW up atm).
Good point for aggroing with Howling Blast + glyph. It make sense. I'll respecs tonight to checkit out.
The rotation for trash pull would be:
HB -> BB -> D&D
or
D&D -> HB -> BB?
Which one is better?
Khross
The rotation for trash pull would be:
HB -> BB -> D&D
or
D&D -> HB -> BB?
Which one is better?
Khross
gtap wrote:
Good point for aggroing with Howling Blast + glyph. It make sense. I'll respecs tonight to checkit out.
The rotation for trash pull would be:
HB -> BB -> D&D
or
D&D -> HB -> BB?
Which one is better?
Khross
The rotation for trash pull would be:
HB -> BB -> D&D
or
D&D -> HB -> BB?
Which one is better?
Khross
My usual rotation is conditional, really.
On simple packs I usually do:
HB -> BB -> D&D -> (Dump)
HB -> BB -> BB -> HB -> (Dump)
Very efficient if your DPS is trigger happy or you've got that healer who keeps spamming heals on you before you even take damage. Howling Blast and Blood Boil provide a nice amount of spike aggro while D&D just ticks away. You need some serious DPS with aggro issues to lose aggro here. Especially once you come around to the second rotation where you get two Howling Blasts and two Blood Boils.
If the mobs are positioned too far away from each other to get hit by Howling Blast, I put down D&D first, cast Icy Touch on one mob, pull any casters to my D&D circle with Death Grip and then use Plague Strike and Pestilence once they're all gathered. You need a patient healer and DPS for this, though, since you'll have spent all your runes and won't have any left for Howling Blast until the next rotation.
D&D -> IT -> PS -> Pest -> (Dump)
HB -> BB -> HB -> BB -> (Dump)
Some heroics have narrow hallways and the above rotation is excellent there because you can pull stray mobs into your D&D zone and keep them packed for easier AOE. I use this method a lot in DTK because of the relatively spread out packs.
Edited, Oct 14th 2009 5:03am by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Yep, you're right.
HB (with Glyph) D&D + BB = really sticky aggro.
I guess you learn something everyday.
Thx for the tip.
Khross, Dragonblight
Edited, Oct 14th 2009 12:32am by gtap
HB (with Glyph) D&D + BB = really sticky aggro.
I guess you learn something everyday.
Thx for the tip.
Khross, Dragonblight
Edited, Oct 14th 2009 12:32am by gtap
Because I didn't want to create a new thread, I figured I might as well post it here, but I'm sort of beginning to relate to the OP's issue about taking a lot of damage. I've noticed that compared to healing Warriors and Paladins, Death Knights seem to drop like rocks when things turn sour. Being a Death Knight tank myself, I've experienced more than once that a healer would say "You're taking a lot of damage" (though never in the context of it being too much to handle).
My armory. (might not be working)
I'm working on my T8 helmet and then I'll be working towards new rings. I'm currently sitting at around 31.7k health in Frost Presence with 24k armor, 23% dodge and 15 or 17% parry, I don't remember precisely how much, unbuffed. Both dodge and parry goes up a little with Horn of Winter.
One thing I've found out is that standing with your back to a pack of mobs will take you down faster than you can type "o shi-". And sometimes positioning can be a ***** because mobs have this odd tendency to move around with you so on packs larger than three mobs you often end up with one behind you or next to you. This is arealy PITA in Culling of Stratholme and Gundrak (in my experience).
Considering we have an extra source of mitigation compared to Druids (parry) and much higher innate mitigation (with Improved Frost Presence you get 10% damage reduction, Blade Barrier is another 5%) than Paladins and Warriors, it really baffles me. Yet, I've seen it. Gundrak, for instance, was a shocking experience with my healer because I saw the T8/T9 geared Death Knight tank drop from 100% health (with HoTs on) to 30% in less than three seconds on a pack of trash (well, I think there were two packs to be fair, but still).
A Warrior could've popped Shield Block and reduced all incoming damage (except poisons and magic) by 100% or close for 10 seconds. Paladins could've used Hand of Protection, though I'm not sure if it wiped aggro or not. Maybe the Death Knight was just poor at damage mitigation, because I didn't see him pop Icebound Fortitude or Vampiric Blood.
In any case, when I'm tanking on my Death Knight I feel more like a meat shield than anything else. My Warrior and Paladin both hide behind a giant shield, giving the impression that they are in fact a block of steel. The Druid hides in a different shape, but the Death Knight looks just like the DPS Death Knight next to him. I remember thinking Death Knight tanking was awesome, because I could sacrifice a bit of personal DPS, tank the mobs and still do enough damage to balance out the equation. I still do a lot of damage while tanking (1600-2000 dps on a HC Nexus run), but I don't feel like I'm the tank. I feel more like I'm the guy who pulled aggro and never stopped.
*shrug*
My armory. (might not be working)
I'm working on my T8 helmet and then I'll be working towards new rings. I'm currently sitting at around 31.7k health in Frost Presence with 24k armor, 23% dodge and 15 or 17% parry, I don't remember precisely how much, unbuffed. Both dodge and parry goes up a little with Horn of Winter.
One thing I've found out is that standing with your back to a pack of mobs will take you down faster than you can type "o shi-". And sometimes positioning can be a ***** because mobs have this odd tendency to move around with you so on packs larger than three mobs you often end up with one behind you or next to you. This is arealy PITA in Culling of Stratholme and Gundrak (in my experience).
Considering we have an extra source of mitigation compared to Druids (parry) and much higher innate mitigation (with Improved Frost Presence you get 10% damage reduction, Blade Barrier is another 5%) than Paladins and Warriors, it really baffles me. Yet, I've seen it. Gundrak, for instance, was a shocking experience with my healer because I saw the T8/T9 geared Death Knight tank drop from 100% health (with HoTs on) to 30% in less than three seconds on a pack of trash (well, I think there were two packs to be fair, but still).
A Warrior could've popped Shield Block and reduced all incoming damage (except poisons and magic) by 100% or close for 10 seconds. Paladins could've used Hand of Protection, though I'm not sure if it wiped aggro or not. Maybe the Death Knight was just poor at damage mitigation, because I didn't see him pop Icebound Fortitude or Vampiric Blood.
In any case, when I'm tanking on my Death Knight I feel more like a meat shield than anything else. My Warrior and Paladin both hide behind a giant shield, giving the impression that they are in fact a block of steel. The Druid hides in a different shape, but the Death Knight looks just like the DPS Death Knight next to him. I remember thinking Death Knight tanking was awesome, because I could sacrifice a bit of personal DPS, tank the mobs and still do enough damage to balance out the equation. I still do a lot of damage while tanking (1600-2000 dps on a HC Nexus run), but I don't feel like I'm the tank. I feel more like I'm the guy who pulled aggro and never stopped.
*shrug*
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
Because I didn't want to create a new thread, I figured I might as well post it here, but I'm sort of beginning to relate to the OP's issue about taking a lot of damage. I've noticed that compared to healing Warriors and Paladins, Death Knights seem to drop like rocks when things turn sour. Being a Death Knight tank myself, I've experienced more than once that a healer would say "You're taking a lot of damage" (though never in the context of it being too much to handle).
I have noticed a lot of the same comments. Like stated, make sure you are a mobile tank are aren't letting mobs whack away on you from behind. People always ask "are you Def capped" while running H ToC, that place is just insane damage for DK tanks. I really hate the Warrior/Rogue combo since the warrior likes to hold me immobile for a few seconds in the poison and then throws me out of healing range to die. That fight is just insane for DK tanks, but it seems like the best healers for me are Druids. Having continual HoTs on DK's seems to work. One of my buddies (who is running a Priest) claims that they are the OP healing class ATM but he had to plan out our fights just to get through them.
For now, most Heroics are ho, hum - even early Wrath Raids, but the newer content has me blowing everything I have when the CD is up. That is pretty much the only way I have found to successfully tank these encounters.
Here's my 2 cents:
Positionning is key, you can not let the mob get behing you. 99% of the time I start with D&D while running toward the mobs, then HB still running and then BB and do a 180 and walk backward a little. Result: mucho aggro and all the mobs are in front of me, their back facing the party.
Good healers make good tanks. I always write down the name of the healers I party with. Especially in tougher heroic like ToC and HoL. If I wipe for no reason (meaning I didn't do something stupid!), that healer goes into somekind of a black list. Then I check them on the armory to see if they're undergeared. If not, that mean they just don't know what they're doing and I try to avoid them in the future. At the same time, I ALWAYS compliment them on their healing after a good run so they feel more comfortable partying with me.
My info when I'm in Frost presence with Horn of Winter on is:
Health: 33271
Armor: 25518
Defense: 542
Dodge: 28.13%
Parry: 17.88%
I don't remember the last time I wipe in ToC heroic mainly because I teamed with good healers.
Hope it helps,
Khross, Dragonblight
N.B: I use Sigil of Insolence. That sigil really made a difference for me.
Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 11:54pm by gtap
Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 11:56pm by gtap
Positionning is key, you can not let the mob get behing you. 99% of the time I start with D&D while running toward the mobs, then HB still running and then BB and do a 180 and walk backward a little. Result: mucho aggro and all the mobs are in front of me, their back facing the party.
Good healers make good tanks. I always write down the name of the healers I party with. Especially in tougher heroic like ToC and HoL. If I wipe for no reason (meaning I didn't do something stupid!), that healer goes into somekind of a black list. Then I check them on the armory to see if they're undergeared. If not, that mean they just don't know what they're doing and I try to avoid them in the future. At the same time, I ALWAYS compliment them on their healing after a good run so they feel more comfortable partying with me.
My info when I'm in Frost presence with Horn of Winter on is:
Health: 33271
Armor: 25518
Defense: 542
Dodge: 28.13%
Parry: 17.88%
I don't remember the last time I wipe in ToC heroic mainly because I teamed with good healers.
Hope it helps,
Khross, Dragonblight
N.B: I use Sigil of Insolence. That sigil really made a difference for me.
Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 11:54pm by gtap
Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 11:56pm by gtap
gtap wrote:
Health: 33271
Armor: 25518
Defense: 542
Dodge: 28.13%
Parry: 17.88%
Armor: 25518
Defense: 542
Dodge: 28.13%
Parry: 17.88%
25k armor? Is that a typo? Did you mean 15518?
No, in frost presence, armor contribution is increased by 60%. In blood and Unholy, my armor would be 16077. Obviously, frost is the presence to be when you're tanking.
For problematic pulls, just pop a CD and go in so you dont have to worry too much about damage spike and concentrate on grabbing aggro.
Works for me most of the time, even with trigger happy DPS. Not having your back again any mob is a key thing tanks needs to learn, but sometimes u have to compromise.
Also many DK tanks forget one very useful CD, the AntiMagic one...... no DKs (whether DPS or Tank) should die in P3 of the ToC5 last boss. That CD effectively reduced a huge chunk of damage and gives u free RP.
Aside from the above....
The issue I have is being rejected when LFG. Too many times, when I LFG for ToC10, the RL says I'm too squishy (34k hp unbuffed). This is even when I've the achievement as some sort of 'proof' that I've Main Tanked that encounter. It's really sad.
Works for me most of the time, even with trigger happy DPS. Not having your back again any mob is a key thing tanks needs to learn, but sometimes u have to compromise.
Also many DK tanks forget one very useful CD, the AntiMagic one...... no DKs (whether DPS or Tank) should die in P3 of the ToC5 last boss. That CD effectively reduced a huge chunk of damage and gives u free RP.
Aside from the above....
The issue I have is being rejected when LFG. Too many times, when I LFG for ToC10, the RL says I'm too squishy (34k hp unbuffed). This is even when I've the achievement as some sort of 'proof' that I've Main Tanked that encounter. It's really sad.
Scholar
34 posts
I really don't understand the DK tanking problem that others seem to find. Like Browningguns said, I seem to find it a better situation when there is a druid healer in the group. I tried running H ToC the other day with a Disc priest and the run was fail... we did finish the instance but not until I wracked up 60g in repairs. I popped every CD when possible, kited, asked other party members to use their interrupts/stuns/purges but it still was dismal.
I am at 25k armor, 25 dodge and 20 parry. I am at 30k health unbuffed. I really don't know what else I can do to make the encounters easier for my healers.
I am at 25k armor, 25 dodge and 20 parry. I am at 30k health unbuffed. I really don't know what else I can do to make the encounters easier for my healers.
Here's my 2 cents,
This may/will vary depending on your server population but on my server (Quel'dorei) the predominant tanking class seems to be paladin followed by warriors.
I could be way off base but I have a feeling that the healers in general are more used to healing paladins and warriors who's incoming damage is more predictable than a DK's.
Because of the abilities of tanking paladins and warriors compared to a tanking DKs thats mentioned in above posts, and the personal notion that as a healer, you can't really heal a paladin and a DK the same way because of the difference in which they take oncoming damage.
I almost never see healers using cast cancel healing macros when using a heal that's not instant and they just usually sit there and wait for the tank to take some damage and then start casting heals or whatnot.
I just think when healing DK tanks, as a healer you should approach it differently then when they are healing a paladin or a warrior.
Like, be more proactive and not reactive. Use cast cancel macros! :)
Then again, I'm probably wrong and I didn't bother to include druid tanks because I have very little knowledge on how they tank in WotLK.
XD
This may/will vary depending on your server population but on my server (Quel'dorei) the predominant tanking class seems to be paladin followed by warriors.
I could be way off base but I have a feeling that the healers in general are more used to healing paladins and warriors who's incoming damage is more predictable than a DK's.
Because of the abilities of tanking paladins and warriors compared to a tanking DKs thats mentioned in above posts, and the personal notion that as a healer, you can't really heal a paladin and a DK the same way because of the difference in which they take oncoming damage.
I almost never see healers using cast cancel healing macros when using a heal that's not instant and they just usually sit there and wait for the tank to take some damage and then start casting heals or whatnot.
I just think when healing DK tanks, as a healer you should approach it differently then when they are healing a paladin or a warrior.
Like, be more proactive and not reactive. Use cast cancel macros! :)
Then again, I'm probably wrong and I didn't bother to include druid tanks because I have very little knowledge on how they tank in WotLK.
XD
MossyOakCamo wrote:
I really don't understand the DK tanking problem that others seem to find. Like Browningguns said, I seem to find it a better situation when there is a druid healer in the group. I tried running H ToC the other day with a Disc priest and the run was fail... we did finish the instance but not until I wracked up 60g in repairs. I popped every CD when possible, kited, asked other party members to use their interrupts/stuns/purges but it still was dismal.
I am at 25k armor, 25 dodge and 20 parry. I am at 30k health unbuffed. I really don't know what else I can do to make the encounters easier for my healers.
I am at 25k armor, 25 dodge and 20 parry. I am at 30k health unbuffed. I really don't know what else I can do to make the encounters easier for my healers.
First of all, Heroic ToC is not an instance to be used for comparison - ever. That instance is haunted, evil and out to no good. I've gone there several times with my Druid, both as healer and tank and I've also gone there my share of times with my DK as both DPS and tank. It all evolves around so much RNG that it's sickening. I've run it as a DK tank (31k health, 26k armor, don't remember my dodge/parry) with an undergeared Shaman healer and we did just fine. I've healed it myself with DK tanks and we did just fine (the Anti-Magic Shell also makes you immune to the fear during Confessor, btw). I've healed it with overgeared Paladin tanks and things went to crap. I've tanked it with overgeared healers and... well, actually, I've never wiped since I started tanking it instead of healing it.
Hmm...
Point is, ToC is such a crap instance that you shouldn't use it to base anything on. If your healer gets feared and triple-hit (it has happened to me) by the Confessor during that encounter, your healer will fold, unless it's a Paladin with Divine Shield ready. If your healer gets the mark in TBK P3, you're in for a hell of a ride. If your healer gets it twice in a row (has also happened to me), your healer will fold, unless it's a Paladin with Divine Shield ready.
I've tried healing The Black Knight P3 where I got the mark, had two ghouls on me (they're supposed to go boom in P2) and died before I could heal myself. I had a soulstone on, so I resurrected, got marked the instant I did and died before I could get off an instant cast heal.
That place is just 100% pure crap.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
There are stats you can look at that will potentially change your survivability. Balancing stamina with avoidance is always tricky. Your actual defense stat (the one adjusted by defense rating) serves only one general purpose, and that's crit immunity. (Before people start screaming, "Nooo! It gives avoidance, too!!" read on.")
As you upgrade and change gear and bounce around here and there, 540 defense always remains the goal. It's not difficult to get and/or maintain, and there's no reason to not have it. If you're geared for heroic ToC5, believe it or not you're also geared to tank Naxx10 and OS10 (and quite possibly the 25-man versions as well, just no hardmodes). Would be a shame to drop a defense gem or enchant in favor of stamina and then have to swap again because you decided to join a Naxx10 PUG. In addition, sometimes your next biggest upgrade will have less defense rating on it than your current piece, but loads more stamina and/or direct avoidance stats. 545 defense means you have a bit of a buffer against having to regem/enchant a bunch of different gear just to make one upgrade truly viable. 540-545 is a great place to be. Keep it.
After every upgrade, once you've confirmed 540 defense, the next two things you're looking at are health and avoidance. Tanks who talk only about their health and defense scare me a bit. In truth, your avoidance in many cases is largely out of your control. Tanks don't gem for parry/dodge or block (where applicable) so your avoidance is sort of what you end up with once you've taken care of your defense and as a function of the explicit avoidance stats on your gear, but it's still important.
Once you've looked after the stats, you have to look at the mechanics of different encounters. Faction champs can be a bit tricky because they like to move around a lot, and the last thing you want is a warrior or a rogue at your back taking free shots at you while bypassing your avoidance entirely. That's often a substantial contributing factor to tank death is taking too many hits from behind. At that point, you're not much better off than a dps warrior or DK in terms of survivability. I see a disturbing number of tanks zero in on the kill target while another mob is turning their *** cheeks into hamburger.
If you're prioritizing kill targets to address the greatest threats, not letting mobs get your back, and your defense is keeping you crit immune, anything that's left leading healers to the impression that you're "hard to heal" boils down largely to class mechanics and leaves you with very little you can do to correct it. If your healers are used to healing T9 raiders, obviously there's going to be a difference between that and healing you.
As you upgrade and change gear and bounce around here and there, 540 defense always remains the goal. It's not difficult to get and/or maintain, and there's no reason to not have it. If you're geared for heroic ToC5, believe it or not you're also geared to tank Naxx10 and OS10 (and quite possibly the 25-man versions as well, just no hardmodes). Would be a shame to drop a defense gem or enchant in favor of stamina and then have to swap again because you decided to join a Naxx10 PUG. In addition, sometimes your next biggest upgrade will have less defense rating on it than your current piece, but loads more stamina and/or direct avoidance stats. 545 defense means you have a bit of a buffer against having to regem/enchant a bunch of different gear just to make one upgrade truly viable. 540-545 is a great place to be. Keep it.
After every upgrade, once you've confirmed 540 defense, the next two things you're looking at are health and avoidance. Tanks who talk only about their health and defense scare me a bit. In truth, your avoidance in many cases is largely out of your control. Tanks don't gem for parry/dodge or block (where applicable) so your avoidance is sort of what you end up with once you've taken care of your defense and as a function of the explicit avoidance stats on your gear, but it's still important.
Once you've looked after the stats, you have to look at the mechanics of different encounters. Faction champs can be a bit tricky because they like to move around a lot, and the last thing you want is a warrior or a rogue at your back taking free shots at you while bypassing your avoidance entirely. That's often a substantial contributing factor to tank death is taking too many hits from behind. At that point, you're not much better off than a dps warrior or DK in terms of survivability. I see a disturbing number of tanks zero in on the kill target while another mob is turning their *** cheeks into hamburger.
If you're prioritizing kill targets to address the greatest threats, not letting mobs get your back, and your defense is keeping you crit immune, anything that's left leading healers to the impression that you're "hard to heal" boils down largely to class mechanics and leaves you with very little you can do to correct it. If your healers are used to healing T9 raiders, obviously there's going to be a difference between that and healing you.
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Tanks don't gem for parry/dodge or block (where applicable) so your avoidance is sort of what you end up with once you've taken care of your defense and as a function of the explicit avoidance stats on your gear, but it's still important.
Wait, are you saying I shouldn't have the dodge/stamina gems? Once I hit 540def and 30k health, I have been playing with my gems to increase my avoidance.
The other thing that does worry me was the debuff I read about that will decrease your dodge by 20%, but that bosses will do less damage to get rid of spike damage. This is going to really cripple the DK Tank IMO, and was wondering what your thoughts were on this.
browningguns wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Tanks don't gem for parry/dodge or block (where applicable) so your avoidance is sort of what you end up with once you've taken care of your defense and as a function of the explicit avoidance stats on your gear, but it's still important.
Wait, are you saying I shouldn't have the dodge/stamina gems? Once I hit 540def and 30k health, I have been playing with my gems to increase my avoidance.
The other thing that does worry me was the debuff I read about that will decrease your dodge by 20%, but that bosses will do less damage to get rid of spike damage. This is going to really cripple the DK Tank IMO, and was wondering what your thoughts were on this.
With the amount of damage flying around in WotLK raids where avoidance stats offer no benefit, most tanks prefer to focus on stamina as long as they're crit immune. Truly dedicated tanks will often develop avoidance sets for certain kinds of encounters but for most balanced builds, the avoidance stats you need already come on the gear. If you're looking at a case where you've got a piece of gear with a red socket and a +9/+12 stam socket bonus, I would consider throwing in a +10 dodge/+15 stam purple gem. The difference in stamina isn't likely to make or break you but as a general rule stamina is always 100% applicable to all forms of damage, dodge is not.
The primary complaint from DK tanks about the 20% dodge nerf had little to do with survivability and more to do with the reduction in availability of Rune Strike. All tanks will feel the pinch, though it will actually be prot pallies (or, more specifically, healers of prot pallies) who will feel it the most because of the way the damage will be spread out. Even the concern over Rune Strike is questionable, with dual wielding DK tanks the most likely to see any significant reduction in threat as a result of the debuff, and just how substantial that reduction might be is yet to be seen.
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