Tanked for a long time as a Paly. Huge part of tanking is hitting that magic 540 Def number. I realize that Druids simply talent to avoid crits. So - some general questions:
1. Do I need to focus on Def at all?
2. What are the stat priorities.
3. Does Def add anything? (Does it make sense to Gem or 'chant for it?)
4. As a Paly there was a hard/fast rule for entering Heroics - what are the baseline stats for a Bear?
5. What is the big "Problem" for Bear tanks? For Paly it was always a lack of Stamina...
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1- Focus on it? Not really; eschew it entirely? Definitely not; you still get avoidance from Defense. I wouldn't stack it but don't look at a ring or something and say "ew, defense rating" (conversely, "ew, parry/block rating" is something you ought to say unless it's a massive buff otherwise).
2- Stamina/Agility are the two biggest ones, as they contribute generously to the other two major factors of our tanking methodology: crit and dodge. Getting more AP in there doesn't hurt either for added threat. Gems/enchants and such will generally always be stam/agi.
3- Already covered this, it adds slight amounts of avoidance so it's not an entirely wasted stat, but shouldn't be aimed for. Never gem for it.
4- No idea tbh, I bought the polar boots/chest and the trollwoven shoulders/belt, gemmed/enchanted everything I had (~R187 or better) with some extra stamina, and had no problem tanking heroics personally.
5- I think our effective avoidance is a bit lower than any other tank. I'm not sure, I'm not currently tanking raids (much as I'd like to). We can also have problems keeping aggro on aoe packs if dps is trigger happy.
2- Stamina/Agility are the two biggest ones, as they contribute generously to the other two major factors of our tanking methodology: crit and dodge. Getting more AP in there doesn't hurt either for added threat. Gems/enchants and such will generally always be stam/agi.
3- Already covered this, it adds slight amounts of avoidance so it's not an entirely wasted stat, but shouldn't be aimed for. Never gem for it.
4- No idea tbh, I bought the polar boots/chest and the trollwoven shoulders/belt, gemmed/enchanted everything I had (~R187 or better) with some extra stamina, and had no problem tanking heroics personally.
5- I think our effective avoidance is a bit lower than any other tank. I'm not sure, I'm not currently tanking raids (much as I'd like to). We can also have problems keeping aggro on aoe packs if dps is trigger happy.
Read the Druid 202 sticky if you get the chance. Druidsock is wise. :)
But to answer your questions:
Defense is fine if it's on gear, but there's usually no point at going out of your way to get it. You'll still get some benefit from the +dodge component.
Depends on what you feel you need. In general Stamina and Agility are great. Any item that has +armor rocks, dodge is good. Attack power and Critical increase the power and up-time of Savage Defense, but there's not much reason to stack them. Expertise and Hit are a lot like the pally. Parry and Block do nothing for you.
I don't know. There are a lot of geared DPS with bad attitudes these days, so getting started tanking heriocs is harder then it used to be. In theory as long as you have mostly blues with the occasional epic or green you should be fine, but you may have a hard time holding threat over a ToC geared DPS.
My biggest problem in the beginning was learning rage management. You can't generate much rage unless something is hitting you, so it can take a couple of seconds to 'grab' a group in the beginning; once Maul hits you should be home free though. Also assume you aren't going to be dodging much stuff; avoidance stats are low on bears. On the plus side awesome stamina and armor modifiers help make up for this! :)
I'm sure other bears will have some advice too, and can add some to what I wrote here. I still consider bear my off-spec, so I can imagine I may I missed something...
Edited, Oct 9th 2009 8:00am by someproteinguy
Edited, Oct 9th 2009 8:00am by someproteinguy
But to answer your questions:
Quote:
1. Do I need to focus on Def at all?
Defense is fine if it's on gear, but there's usually no point at going out of your way to get it. You'll still get some benefit from the +dodge component.
Quote:
2. What are the stat priorities.
Depends on what you feel you need. In general Stamina and Agility are great. Any item that has +armor rocks, dodge is good. Attack power and Critical increase the power and up-time of Savage Defense, but there's not much reason to stack them. Expertise and Hit are a lot like the pally. Parry and Block do nothing for you.
Quote:
4. As a Paly there was a hard/fast rule for entering Heroics - what are the baseline stats for a Bear?
I don't know. There are a lot of geared DPS with bad attitudes these days, so getting started tanking heriocs is harder then it used to be. In theory as long as you have mostly blues with the occasional epic or green you should be fine, but you may have a hard time holding threat over a ToC geared DPS.
Quote:
5. What is the big "Problem" for Bear tanks? For Paly it was always a lack of Stamina...
My biggest problem in the beginning was learning rage management. You can't generate much rage unless something is hitting you, so it can take a couple of seconds to 'grab' a group in the beginning; once Maul hits you should be home free though. Also assume you aren't going to be dodging much stuff; avoidance stats are low on bears. On the plus side awesome stamina and armor modifiers help make up for this! :)
I'm sure other bears will have some advice too, and can add some to what I wrote here. I still consider bear my off-spec, so I can imagine I may I missed something...
Edited, Oct 9th 2009 8:00am by someproteinguy
Edited, Oct 9th 2009 8:00am by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
I kept Thrusting Bands for a long time because of the hit and expertise. It is missing on a good deal of the better tank pieces.
Some druids stack Stam. I have never been into Stam stacking. Before ToC I was all Agility. When they released the Shifting gems I started to use them in blue slots if I would get a decent socket bonus. Moving from Uld into ToC I have been going all epic Shifting ems to try and keep my health up while not gimping my dodge.
I like keeping my expertise as high as possible to reduce parry and also for the threat. Hit helps but not as much as expertise in my experience.
Now onto your questions.
1. Do I need to focus on Def at all?
No, it come on your non-leather pieces and more is better. But in general you are looking for high Sta, dodge, armor and expertise on those pieces.
2. What are the stat priorities.
Stam is king until you have enough health. Enough varies by instance. Naxx would be like 25k, Uld 30k and ToC pushing 40k. This is 10 mans btw. After health is at a decent place pile on Agility until it hurts. Armor on non-leather is something to watch for and grabbed when ever you can. At the same time you can't neglect expertise and hit. It will ***** you over. The crit and AP just comes with better gear. I tend to think of them as an after thought.
3. Does Def add anything? (Does it make sense to Gem or 'chant for it?)
Yes, Def adds dodge and to your chance to have mobs miss. Don't go out of your way for it though. Look for Armor, Dodge, Expertise and to a lesser extent Hit on non-leather stuff. The Def will typically be there any way.
4. As a Paly there was a hard/fast rule for entering Heroics - what are the baseline stats for a Bear?
I forget. When I hit 80 and now are two completely different games. What ever stats I had, which I forget, I would say you would have to 1.5 them. Sorry.
5. What is the big "Problem" for Bear tanks? For Paly it was always a lack of Stamina...
Threat not scaling as rapidly as with other tanks. We gain less per point of Str than other tanks since we just gain AP whereas other tanks gain Block and Parry. This can lead to threat issues if you don't get new weapons as fast as the DPS. I was starting to have threat issues before I got Fordragon Blades. OiN just wasn't cutting it in the threat department.
Otherwise problems are Rogues stealing my leather and Hunters taking my weapons.
Some druids stack Stam. I have never been into Stam stacking. Before ToC I was all Agility. When they released the Shifting gems I started to use them in blue slots if I would get a decent socket bonus. Moving from Uld into ToC I have been going all epic Shifting ems to try and keep my health up while not gimping my dodge.
I like keeping my expertise as high as possible to reduce parry and also for the threat. Hit helps but not as much as expertise in my experience.
Now onto your questions.
1. Do I need to focus on Def at all?
No, it come on your non-leather pieces and more is better. But in general you are looking for high Sta, dodge, armor and expertise on those pieces.
2. What are the stat priorities.
Stam is king until you have enough health. Enough varies by instance. Naxx would be like 25k, Uld 30k and ToC pushing 40k. This is 10 mans btw. After health is at a decent place pile on Agility until it hurts. Armor on non-leather is something to watch for and grabbed when ever you can. At the same time you can't neglect expertise and hit. It will ***** you over. The crit and AP just comes with better gear. I tend to think of them as an after thought.
3. Does Def add anything? (Does it make sense to Gem or 'chant for it?)
Yes, Def adds dodge and to your chance to have mobs miss. Don't go out of your way for it though. Look for Armor, Dodge, Expertise and to a lesser extent Hit on non-leather stuff. The Def will typically be there any way.
4. As a Paly there was a hard/fast rule for entering Heroics - what are the baseline stats for a Bear?
I forget. When I hit 80 and now are two completely different games. What ever stats I had, which I forget, I would say you would have to 1.5 them. Sorry.
5. What is the big "Problem" for Bear tanks? For Paly it was always a lack of Stamina...
Threat not scaling as rapidly as with other tanks. We gain less per point of Str than other tanks since we just gain AP whereas other tanks gain Block and Parry. This can lead to threat issues if you don't get new weapons as fast as the DPS. I was starting to have threat issues before I got Fordragon Blades. OiN just wasn't cutting it in the threat department.
Otherwise problems are Rogues stealing my leather and Hunters taking my weapons.
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I think 40k is probably a little much for ToC 10-mans. Our blood DK has 42k heath, our prot warrior has 44-45k, and that's fully raid buffed, fed, and flasked. I tank 10-man normals in my off-spec gear, have maybe 35k health with just MotW. I have a lot of 25-man gear from Uld and ToC, although I'm using more than a few of my DPS pieces that are gemmed/chanted for DPS.
For me, the biggest problem I had when I first started tanking heroics was snap threat. Pallys start with a full mana bar, DKs have all their runes up. Druids bleed rage if you don't chain pull. Although Enrage works much better now, so this might not be much of an issue.
I never had problems with threat scaling poorly with my gear, but since tanking is my off-spec, I'm usually using a few DPS pieces from the next tier of content up from what I'm tanking. YMMV.
For me, the biggest problem I had when I first started tanking heroics was snap threat. Pallys start with a full mana bar, DKs have all their runes up. Druids bleed rage if you don't chain pull. Although Enrage works much better now, so this might not be much of an issue.
I never had problems with threat scaling poorly with my gear, but since tanking is my off-spec, I'm usually using a few DPS pieces from the next tier of content up from what I'm tanking. YMMV.
The biggest problem for druid tanks is gear. It's easier for plate to progress gear-wise, there are more drops with their bread and butter stats (sta, str, def, parry, block) and fewer with ours (sta, agi, dodge). I'm still wearing my durable nerubhide cape, because I've yet to get a tank cloak that doesnt lose me almost a whole point of dodge in the process (the ones I've seen in Naxx25 and Uld10 didn't cut it, theres one in Uld 25 that hasnt dropped for me and I don't believe anything in ToC 10). Snap aggro is the other issue -- there are hardly any warrior tanks anymore, and dps is used to running with dk and pally tanks who start with pretty close to a full "rage" bar. That's why blizz is tinkering with Enrage imo.
The advantage of druid tanking is that a) you can go kitty and do decent dps in situations where you only need one tank (I always go kitty on Icehowl, for example) b) You are just insanely durable with that health pool and armor c) Once you get your threat running it's very, very hard to tear it off of a single target and even aoe.
Edit: Re ToC, I started with 38k raid-buffed health, no problems. (So about 32k in bear, self-buffed.) I'm at 47k raid-buffed now and about to enter hard mode, I'll let you know.
Edited, Oct 10th 2009 8:30pm by tuskerdu
Edited, Oct 10th 2009 8:32pm by tuskerdu
The advantage of druid tanking is that a) you can go kitty and do decent dps in situations where you only need one tank (I always go kitty on Icehowl, for example) b) You are just insanely durable with that health pool and armor c) Once you get your threat running it's very, very hard to tear it off of a single target and even aoe.
Edit: Re ToC, I started with 38k raid-buffed health, no problems. (So about 32k in bear, self-buffed.) I'm at 47k raid-buffed now and about to enter hard mode, I'll let you know.
Edited, Oct 10th 2009 8:30pm by tuskerdu
Edited, Oct 10th 2009 8:32pm by tuskerdu
Cloaks to get.
This one. It has armor and is in Naxx25.
Otherwise hard mode Uld25 has a few that are better, Titanskin Cloak, Drape of Icy Intent.
I got Pride of the Eredar of 25 man ToC. The only better ones are from hard ToC.
I have no issue losing dodge if I gain big elsewhere.
This one. It has armor and is in Naxx25.
Otherwise hard mode Uld25 has a few that are better, Titanskin Cloak, Drape of Icy Intent.
I got Pride of the Eredar of 25 man ToC. The only better ones are from hard ToC.
I have no issue losing dodge if I gain big elsewhere.
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