Posit: discipline priests should never gem or enchant for haste (except for haste to cloak, as it is the only viable cloak enchant), and should generally avoid it on gear.
Reasoning: discipline priests frequently find themselves in situations where they are haste capped, rendering additional haste wasted.
To expound:
Haste reduces the global cooldown (GCD) from a nominal 1.5 seconds to a minimum of 1 second. This means instant-cast spells cap haste at 33%. Past that point, only spells with a significant cast time (Penance, GHeal, and Prayer of Healing, along with Hymns) benefit from additional haste. Thus you can say that haste is "soft-capped" at 33%.
33% sounds like a lot, but isn't. Borrowed Time is the key.
Borrowed Time grants 25% haste to your next spell or for five seconds. The funny thing is, instant-casts and Penance do not consume the haste effect. So long as you don't cast Flash, GHeal, PoHealing, or a Hymn, the haste effect lasts the full duration. For a discipline priest in high-end raiding, you spend much of your time casting Shield, Renew, PoMending, and Penance, with Flash and the rare Prayer thrown in (possibly GHeal in 10-mans). Thus, you maintain very high Borrowed Time uptime.
Sure, the first Shield will not have a hasted global cooldown, but so long as you keep casting Shield, you'll maintain the haste.
For a very high amount of time in-combat, Borrowed Time will be active. Therefore, you maintain 25% haste. Then toss in Enlightenment, which is 6% flat haste. That puts you at 31%. That means your gear must contribute a measly 2% haste to cap your instants.
Priest t8 and t9 sets contain more than 2% haste. Therefore, no haste is needed from gems or enchants, or from supplemental pieces of gear like rings or bracers.
I except the 23 haste to cloak enchant. The only other caster cloak enchant is Wisdom; since threat is a non-issue, if you get the enchant you're paying an exorbitant cost for 10 spirit. That's dumb. So get 23 haste.
Additional haste past 2% isn't a complete waste. It'll affect longer cast times, the first shield, and any shield cast after a Flash or PoHealing. It's just far less effective than you would hope. (Side note: it's not even great for Penance. Penance's first tick is instant; only the second and third ticks benefit from haste.)
I'm not totally happy with crit at the moment, either. I find myself using Renew more, which can't crit; plus the Shields I'm spamming can't themselves crit. When Cataclysm rolls we need talents to let Renew and Shield crit. But that's for another day.
I was never wild about haste, as it improves throughput but not efficiency, while crit and spellpower do both. But this realization makes me ever-more-firmly against haste as a discipline priest stat.
By the way, ignore all this as a holy priest. Holy priests get a lot of benefit from haste, and they only need enough crit to keep Holy Conc rolling and Surge of Light available, so haste is a splendid secondary stat for them.
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While I agree with what you're saying in principle, the practicalities of the situation can create cases where haste can be a desirable stat for disc priests. This primarily happens when you're healing tanks on high damage output bosses. If you're healing a tank in this situation your priority should be healing the tank continuously. If you intend to take advantage of borrowed time as much as possible you would need to be shielding other members of the raid. While this isn't the end of the world, that does cause cases where you are using a valuable (unhasted) global cooldown to shield someone that doesn't need it when you could be flash healing the tank.
This isn't to say that using the borrowed time effect isn't worthwhile in this situation. however I tend to limit myself to shielding only tanks. Firstly because they are likely to benefit from the shield the most. Secondly because I keep our tanks in group 1 meaning they're close together on my grid, and thirdly, because there are never more than 3 in a 25 man raid. Limiting myself to 2 of those helps to balance out the hasting benefit as well as keeping the weakened soul crit benefit rolling on the relevant tanks.
In the situation I'm describing I don't mind having a bit of haste on my gear (not that I'm saying I'd ever actually gem for it), but up to around 400 or so can be quite nice from a throughput standpoint when healing in this way.
This isn't to say that using the borrowed time effect isn't worthwhile in this situation. however I tend to limit myself to shielding only tanks. Firstly because they are likely to benefit from the shield the most. Secondly because I keep our tanks in group 1 meaning they're close together on my grid, and thirdly, because there are never more than 3 in a 25 man raid. Limiting myself to 2 of those helps to balance out the hasting benefit as well as keeping the weakened soul crit benefit rolling on the relevant tanks.
In the situation I'm describing I don't mind having a bit of haste on my gear (not that I'm saying I'd ever actually gem for it), but up to around 400 or so can be quite nice from a throughput standpoint when healing in this way.
Quote:
a nominal 1.5 seconds to a minimum of 1 second.
I disagree a bit. From my perspective things are a lot smoother when you have 1 gcd over 1.5
Quote:
For a discipline priest in high-end raiding, you spend much of your time casting Renew
I don't know about hardmode raiding but I've used renew about 5 times in toc so far, mostly during impale or faction champs...with druids out of control right now it seems like you will get sniped, I'd rather toss a shield on someone.
You will get enough haste from gear it doesn't really become an issue. You don't need to go out of your way for haste it comes to you. I use my borrowed time for either a greater heal (like almost never), PoH (in 25 man like almost never), but most of the time it gets used on a flash.. 0.75 is fun, but not game breaking or anything.
1.7 penance ftw...haste is a nice stat, but like you said its not something you want to go out of your way and lose spellpower/crit for
ChahDresh wrote:
(except for haste to cloak, as it is the only viable cloak enchant)
Every raiding priest should have tailoring. It's really that much better than any other profession.
I agree with your reasoning, but your math is flawed.
Hastereduces increases the rate, not reduces the time for a spell to cast.
Formula from wiki.
Haste = ( ( BaseCastTime / DesiredCastTime ) - 1) * 100
Haste works more like adding a reduction to, rather than just simply removing time. This keeps spells from achieving a 0 second cast time.
In essence, 100% haste doubles the number of spells you can cast in a certain amount of time. Let's say you have a spell that has a 3 second cast time. 100% haste would allow you to cast 2 spells in 3 seconds.
Following this through would lead you to conclude that 50% haste would allow you to cast 1.5 spells in the same amount of time, or a 2 second cast time. Cut the value of those cast times in half and we are now tallking about the gcd and the desired cast time.
So, in order to drop a 1.5 second spell (such as the gcd) to 1 second, you need 50% haste.
*edit* Gotta use teh right words
Edited, Sep 29th 2009 2:04pm by Trylofer
Edited, Sep 29th 2009 2:05pm by Trylofer
Haste
Formula from wiki.
Haste = ( ( BaseCastTime / DesiredCastTime ) - 1) * 100
Haste works more like adding a reduction to, rather than just simply removing time. This keeps spells from achieving a 0 second cast time.
In essence, 100% haste doubles the number of spells you can cast in a certain amount of time. Let's say you have a spell that has a 3 second cast time. 100% haste would allow you to cast 2 spells in 3 seconds.
Following this through would lead you to conclude that 50% haste would allow you to cast 1.5 spells in the same amount of time, or a 2 second cast time. Cut the value of those cast times in half and we are now tallking about the gcd and the desired cast time.
So, in order to drop a 1.5 second spell (such as the gcd) to 1 second, you need 50% haste.
*edit* Gotta use teh right words
Edited, Sep 29th 2009 2:04pm by Trylofer
Edited, Sep 29th 2009 2:05pm by Trylofer
Or in just a few words:
Haste is a nice to have stat, it never hurts getting it but you don't want to gear/gem/enchant for it.
Haste is a nice to have stat, it never hurts getting it but you don't want to gear/gem/enchant for it.
Oh and I forgot to add, haste percentages stacks muliplicatively. 6% haste from Enlightenment and 25% from Borrowed Time will give you a total of 32.5% haste
1.25*1.06=1.325
Which leaves you with 17.5% haste from gear, or 574 haste rating for a 1 second gcd w/BT.
If you have a ret pally with Swift Retribution, or a Moonkin with the Imp form, there's another 3%.
1.325*1.03=1.36475, or 36.475%
I am not sure if these two stack, if they do, then it brings the total haste up to 1.4056925, or 40.57%
Going with the 36.475%, you need to make up the rest with haste rating (50% is the goal). 13.525%, or 443 haste rating to achieve a 1 second gcd with use of BT. (If they do stack, 309 haste rating is all you need.)
Now if you consider selfcasting PI and Heroism/Bloodlust... O_O
Actually PI and Bloodlust/Heroism will allow your gcd to fall below 1 second, so no need for further math (thank God!!)
I don't really concern myself with reaching that softcap of 50% total haste. I do consider it wasteful of iLevel points if disc surpasses it though.
*edit- math hurts
*edit2- Pretty sure my math on this is still a little off, and I never took Wrath totem into account. Still, I am satisfied with the point made by this post in pointing out the right direction to those that want to mathematically determine their haste budget. Not going to necro this post for a correction, it seems pointless to do so.
Edited, Sep 29th 2009 8:24pm by Trylofer
Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 10:16am by Trylofer
1.25*1.06=1.325
Which leaves you with 17.5% haste from gear, or 574 haste rating for a 1 second gcd w/BT.
If you have a ret pally with Swift Retribution, or a Moonkin with the Imp form, there's another 3%.
1.325*1.03=1.36475, or 36.475%
I am not sure if these two stack, if they do, then it brings the total haste up to 1.4056925, or 40.57%
Going with the 36.475%, you need to make up the rest with haste rating (50% is the goal). 13.525%, or 443 haste rating to achieve a 1 second gcd with use of BT. (If they do stack, 309 haste rating is all you need.)
Now if you consider selfcasting PI and Heroism/Bloodlust... O_O
Actually PI and Bloodlust/Heroism will allow your gcd to fall below 1 second, so no need for further math (thank God!!)
I don't really concern myself with reaching that softcap of 50% total haste. I do consider it wasteful of iLevel points if disc surpasses it though.
*edit- math hurts
*edit2- Pretty sure my math on this is still a little off, and I never took Wrath totem into account. Still, I am satisfied with the point made by this post in pointing out the right direction to those that want to mathematically determine their haste budget. Not going to necro this post for a correction, it seems pointless to do so.
Edited, Sep 29th 2009 8:24pm by Trylofer
Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 10:16am by Trylofer
Smoopie wrote:
ChahDresh wrote:
(except for haste to cloak, as it is the only viable cloak enchant)
Every raiding priest should have tailoring. It's really that much better than any other profession.
Why? I personally went Tailor but more for the "feel". I keep things "in class" (Mage = Chanter, Pally = BSmith/JC, Priest = Tailor, Hunter = Skinner/LW)
Does the 400mp on cast chance REALLY outdo JC and BSmith?
Quote:
Does the 400mp on cast chance REALLY outdo JC and BSmith?
No. But 295 spellpower does
It's not game breakingly better than JC or BS so I wouldn't drop one of those for it. But a fresh 80 might look at this and decide against it.
JC is 48 spellpower (if you use 3x)
BS is 46 spellpower
The proc rate on this enchant has been out of control since day one
The mana return has a 60 second ICD, and a procrate of 35%.
So we can estimate that it procs every 65 seconds.
400 mana per 65 seconds = 30.769... Mp5.
The spellpower proc gives 295 spellpower for 15 seconds on a ~50% procrate and a 45 second ICD.
We'll assume it procs roughly every 50 seconds, which gives you 295 spellpower for 15 out of every 50 seconds.
That gives it a 30% uptime so on average it is 295x0.3= 88.5 spellpower.
I'm not sure on the itemvalue of spellpower and Mp5, but if you know you can substract the itemvalue of the +23 haste cloak enchant and then compare it to how much itemvalue wortg of stats other professions give.
So we can estimate that it procs every 65 seconds.
400 mana per 65 seconds = 30.769... Mp5.
The spellpower proc gives 295 spellpower for 15 seconds on a ~50% procrate and a 45 second ICD.
We'll assume it procs roughly every 50 seconds, which gives you 295 spellpower for 15 out of every 50 seconds.
That gives it a 30% uptime so on average it is 295x0.3= 88.5 spellpower.
I'm not sure on the itemvalue of spellpower and Mp5, but if you know you can substract the itemvalue of the +23 haste cloak enchant and then compare it to how much itemvalue wortg of stats other professions give.
Alternatively, you drop Enlightenment for Absolution and find a way to squeeze in the glyph of Mass Dispel, allowing you to focus on haste a bit more if you've got plenty of crit already and making up for the loss of spirit with a seriously cheap Mass Dispel. I actually recently did this vice versa because now that I'm entering heroic TotC I'm finally beginning to see the actual benefit of haste.
@Aethien; Mp5 : Spellpower would generally be weighed about 1 : 4, considering the average priest will roughly have 4 times as much spellpower as he has MP5ooc. Until the point where running OOM becomes rare, anyway; then the weighing becomes closer to 1 : 2 instead.
@Aethien; Mp5 : Spellpower would generally be weighed about 1 : 4, considering the average priest will roughly have 4 times as much spellpower as he has MP5ooc. Until the point where running OOM becomes rare, anyway; then the weighing becomes closer to 1 : 2 instead.
I'm not talking about how important it is but more how much it is worth in itemvalue.
It's best shown by gems, where it's 20 agility, 23 spellpower or 30 stamina.
I was just too lazy to go figure it all out, but I'll do now.
Cloak enchant: 23 haste.
In itemvalue, 1 haste = 1.15 spellpower = 0.5 Mp5
So 23 haste is worth 26.45 SP or 11.5 Mp5
Since those are the amounts you'd get if there was a cloak enchant of those stats we'll deduct that from the amount the embroidery gives.
That leaves us with 42.05 SP or 19.73Mp5, which is in fact weaker than your average other profession will give you.
The simple conclusion is thus not that Tailoring is so strong, it's that the normal cloak enchant is just that weak.
Edit: Professions generally give 2 gems worth of stats, jewelcrafting is the exception as it gives a little more than that because of the 3 gems.
Edited, Oct 1st 2009 3:24am by Aethien
It's best shown by gems, where it's 20 agility, 23 spellpower or 30 stamina.
I was just too lazy to go figure it all out, but I'll do now.
Cloak enchant: 23 haste.
In itemvalue, 1 haste = 1.15 spellpower = 0.5 Mp5
So 23 haste is worth 26.45 SP or 11.5 Mp5
Since those are the amounts you'd get if there was a cloak enchant of those stats we'll deduct that from the amount the embroidery gives.
That leaves us with 42.05 SP or 19.73Mp5, which is in fact weaker than your average other profession will give you.
The simple conclusion is thus not that Tailoring is so strong, it's that the normal cloak enchant is just that weak.
Edit: Professions generally give 2 gems worth of stats, jewelcrafting is the exception as it gives a little more than that because of the 3 gems.
Edited, Oct 1st 2009 3:24am by Aethien
Yeahwell, I'm putting spellpen on my cloak, so ***** you all. 
I'll put haste on the PVE one.
I remember when I was in college lo these many years ago. I had reading-heavy majors, and it would often come to pass that I kind of had to sacrifice one class a little, and take the B+ so I'd have time to get A's in the other four. For me in WoW, haste is that class.
I'll put haste on the PVE one.
I remember when I was in college lo these many years ago. I had reading-heavy majors, and it would often come to pass that I kind of had to sacrifice one class a little, and take the B+ so I'd have time to get A's in the other four. For me in WoW, haste is that class.
That raises a question for me, how do tailors handle getting 130 spellpen? :3
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