DPS: hybrids vs puresFollow

it has long been the feeling of most that pure dps classes should outperform hybrid classes. this has been echoed by the Devs in recent times. most recently GC:



it has been said that the difference in dps should be up to and around 10%.

my issue is this: if all classes bring buffs now, why should there be a dps disparity? why should hybrids be taxed 10% because of the class they chose? in PvE, a dps is a dps. take a Ret paladin in raid. he will dps. he will not tank. he will not heal(other than his exclusive buffs).

a warlock can heal to an extent, a rogue and hunter can tank to an extent, a mage...is cute. should a Holy paladin take a 10% healing tax because he can spec into Prot? should a warrior also be penalized because he has a talent tree with alot of defensive skills?

i think this way of thinking should have went out during the end of tBC. one might consider the balance issue of PvP when arguing this point. like how a rogue needs to put out more damage in lue of his lack of healing. pretty valid point, however PvP has so many more factors like: teammates, burst, defensive abilities, offensive abilities, etc.

in PvE, dps is dps. /discuss

Because you're going to get an incredibly objective response lacking any bias whatsoever in a hybrid class forum.

Agree with the comments so far. For free I can switch between tank and DPS and for 50g I can slip into my holy gear and heal. It's a small price to pay for being so versatile, irrespective of the whining that I've done in the past.

Except the hybrids are adding magical buffs and boss debuffs that add up to much much more raid damage than having an extra "rogue" or "mage" level dps.

That raidcomp thing you linked to is interesting, but very flawed. It's claiming rogues provide poison and finisher move debuffs that in reality will never be present because no rogue is going to use expose armor instead of envenom, or wound instead of instant/deadly. If they did, their personal dps would be way below the tanks let alone other dps raid members. Concordantly, all retribution buffs and debuffs are completely passive.

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 8:40am by ArtemisEnteri

This is exactly right and exactly why I quit my Mage.

My Paladin can tank OR DPS. On my server(a very over populated one) we have enough DPS to demand perfection and ignore the scrubs. This means finding groups on DPS = tough unless you only group with people you know.

My Paladin is invite prone just by logging in because of being a tank. Why would anyone "gimp" themselves by not having any versatility and still do the same damage as a class with 2-3 uses?

<Not useful, removed it.>

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 1:38pm by tabstopper

Except no, that is not how the world works. If you "effin like it more" then you shouldn't care about the DPS discrepancy. Obviously if you play for fun only(not min/maxing, raiding) then you're casual. As much as Blizz caters to casuals entirely too much, the high end of the game is not meant for you and never will be.

If you play to enjoy something, go ahead. You could make an Elemental Mage and focus on ALL THREE TREES or be a Hunter who melees. Either way you're having fun(I guess) but you will be terrible. Same thing applies. Blizz designed certain classes to run certain specs for certain situations. If you don't like it, solo or quit. :D

If I sacrifice everything to play a class that can only DPS, I'd be right pissed if I couldn't top meters or come damn close, assuming I am geared, know my class, and play it to its full potential.


Actually, they're trying to make classes balanced (on purpose). Your class is just balanced around doing marginally less damage than classes that can only DPS. Balanced != same DPS.


Really? You call ****** up beyond all recognition on the fact that your class, which can tank, heal, or DPS, and brings some awesome raid buffs, has its damage potential marginally limited compared to a class that can only do damage and brings lesser buffs? You have some strange standards.

Just for fun, I put together a list (from your source) of the common buffs /debuffs a combat rogue brings and compared them with a retribution paladin:

 
Combat Rogue		   Retribution Paladin 
Healing Debuff (WP)	   Passive Healing (JoL) 
4% Dmg Taken Debuff	   3% Damage Buff 
			   AP debuff 
			   Blessings (AP, MP5, Stat% depending) 
			   3% Haste Buff 
			   Replenishment 
			   3% Crit taken debuff

So they bring two, to your seven. And several of your's (JoL, Replenishment) are absolutely huge. This doesn't begin to touch the ridiculous utility that a well-played ret brings to a raid through Hands, Cleansing, and healing if need be. Or the auras that you can provide.

Put yourself in a rogue's shoes for a second. If you saw that list, and knew that you couldn't do more DPS that a ret (though even right now, it's not automatic, unlike past expansions), you'd go through the roof, and rightly so.

kinda my point. wouldn't it make sense if pures were given a better assortment of combat buffs/debuffs rather than a straight % dmg increase. i will not argue that pallies bring a retarded amount of combined buffs...they always have.

and here's the catch: once that one Ret spot is filled, a second Ret brings only his hammer. same holds true if all of those buffs are already represented by other classes. however, after the rogue brings his buffs, a second rogue would still add hybrid dps + 10%.

also, if we compare what a Fury warrior brings to the table vs Combat rogue, you will find it's very similar. however the rogue is still potentially doing warrior dmg + 10%.

edit: i realize that there are fights where warriors will just pwn...this is either a favorable fight or temporary unintended class design. same for DKs.

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 11:35pm by tommyguns

The second Ret also brings additional blessings, more passive mana regen through JoW, and a second aura if needed. As well as more hands, cleanses, and if need be healing.

As for buffs being provided by other classes, there isn't one class that single-handedly provides all of a ret pally's buffs; both of the rogue's buffs are also provided by arms warriors (the mortal strike effect can also be provided by fury warriors and most hunters, never mind that reduced healing is not even useful in most PvE encounters). The chances that a raid will have other people who between them cover every single buff a ret pally can provide are fairly slim.


To cover the vindication debuff, they'd need warrior, druid, warlock, or possibly a prot pally. (And even then, 2/2 vindication is stronger than all of them without 5/5 improvement talents. Demoralizing Roar requires bear form, so in practice only feral tanks will use it.)

For the damage buff, they'd need a BM hunter. (Especially unlikely, since BM is not a particularly good raid spec compared to marks and survival.)

For the haste, they'd need a boomkin.

For replenishment, they'd need a survival hunter, shadow priest, destro lock, or frost mage. (And again, frost is the worst raid spec for mages. Also, since replenishment only affects 10 raid members each time it procs, it doesn't hurt to have 2 people who can provide it in 25-mans.)

For the crit taken debuff, they'd need an elemental shammy, an assassination rogue, or possibly another pally.

The passive healing from JoL can only be provided by another pally (which still gives you the option of using JoW for the passive mana regen); the same goes for JoW.

Blessing of Kings can only be provided by another pally; Might can only be provided by a warrior or another pally, but unlike battle shout doesn't need to be refreshed every 2-3 minutes, and holy and prot pallies are less likely to have the improved version; and Wisdom can only be provided by a shammy or another paladin, though resto shammies and holy pallies are likely to have the improved version (though the shammy can't drop cleansing or healing stream totems if the have to use mana spring instead).


In all, you need at least 6 people to cover every buff a ret pally provides, at least 4 of which are themselves hybrid classes, and 1 of which is not a spectacular raid build. (Warrior, elemental shammy, BM hunter, boomkin, holy or prot pally, and one of: survival hunter, frost mage, S priest, or destro lock.) And even with those 6, a ret pally still has a place: adding a ret pally means that both JoW and JoL are up and allows the shammy to drop healing stream or cleansing totems. It's extremely rare to have all 6 of those in a 10-man, and it's pretty damn uncommon even in 25-man (it's obviously impossible in 5-man).

Not to mention the mana regeneration issues. Or the fact you were brought along to 25mans for only your leet +3% crit buff.