Okay, so earlier today some guy asked me if I wanted to come heal Trial of the Champion (5-man regular). Believing that place to be difficult as a heroic, I told him I'd like to try.
Turns out a lot of Ulduar players are gearing up their off-specs, so people were decked in epics and everything went smooth. The fresh 80's (always the goddam Warriors, seriously) were a bit hefty to keep alive, mainly due to aggro issues, but the tank was awesome and overall DPS was bearable.
Fast forward a couple of hours and I'm now sitting with five epics for my Feral spec and seven for my Resto spec. Not bad for barely a day's work. The issue, though, is that I don't know what figures I'm aiming for as a Resto Druid. I'd like to progress, but TotC is getting a bit boring (14th run and counting) and the other instances drop sub-par gear compared to it.
You can check out my gear in my signature (Melinne). If the Armory is borked, my selfbuffed stats are:
1327 healing (in ToL)
204 spell crit (14.49%)
159 spell haste (4.85%)
201 mp5 (while casting)
866 intellect
777 spirit
What numbers am I looking at for heroic entrance?
I checked the FAQ, by the way, but the Resto section is lacking compared to the Boomkin and Feral ones.
Ps. Is anyone else finding Regrowth and especially the Regrowth glyph expendable with Nourish? I seldom use Regrowth now that I have Nourish, which is faster and crits for about the same as Regrowth with a couple of HoTs running. Maybe I'm doing it wrong or something? Standard fight means keeping Rejuvenation on the tank, using Wild Growth to heal splash damage and Nourish for that spike heal when the tank dips. With Rejuv and Wild Growth, my glyphed Nourish crits for maybe 100 less than a Regrowth-on-Regrowth crit, but Nourish takes 1.43 seconds to cast with my current gear whereas Regrowth takes 1.91 seconds.
Edited, Aug 30th 2009 11:06pm by Mazra
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Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Your SP is really more than fine for heroics, and you can honestly even pull your own weight in Naxx with that. I pretty much only use Regrowth on fights where I need to heal a lot of damage and then keep people up after that (Freya, Hodir, stuff with a lot of raid wide damage).
Definitely at least run HNexus once per day, the mace from there is beautiful for healers. If you have a few hundred gold, a Faces of Doom off the AH or from a scribe friend will be a nice boost for your offhand as well. Spend your first 25 emblems on the Rejuv idol from Emblems of Valor because it's a huge boost to MP5 (depending on how often you cast Rejuv, of course, but it's definitely the most helpful for the bunch of a new healer).
Edited, Aug 30th 2009 6:42pm by CBD
Definitely at least run HNexus once per day, the mace from there is beautiful for healers. If you have a few hundred gold, a Faces of Doom off the AH or from a scribe friend will be a nice boost for your offhand as well. Spend your first 25 emblems on the Rejuv idol from Emblems of Valor because it's a huge boost to MP5 (depending on how often you cast Rejuv, of course, but it's definitely the most helpful for the bunch of a new healer).
Edited, Aug 30th 2009 6:42pm by CBD
I can't help you much as I did no healing in the time my heals jumped from about 1500 up to 2200. At the level they are at now, I heal most heroics without having to drink or innervate at all :)
Heroic TotC on the other hand is pretty tough in places. In the 1st fight, there is a fair bit of poison and it is hard to get it under control while still keeping up with the damage hitting the tank & group. The Black Knights diseases are also a nuisance and just have to be healed through. Best thing to do for this instance is make sure you have a shammy in the group and get them to keep a cleansing totem down. This brings the instance back to only slightly harder than a regular heroic to heal.
Heroic TotC on the other hand is pretty tough in places. In the 1st fight, there is a fair bit of poison and it is hard to get it under control while still keeping up with the damage hitting the tank & group. The Black Knights diseases are also a nuisance and just have to be healed through. Best thing to do for this instance is make sure you have a shammy in the group and get them to keep a cleansing totem down. This brings the instance back to only slightly harder than a regular heroic to heal.
I always keep rejuv glyphed on the tank + regrowth and toss 2 LB at the beggining of the fight just so it blooms on the middle (usually, one less nourish I have to cast on tank). Nourish when tanks need more healing, regrowth I just cast for the dot so Nourish heals for more. But, then again, I'm well equipped, I think, have 4 t7 and some stuff I get from my moonkin set.
I'm not quite sure on the numbers, not my main spec and I dont care so much, but I think you lack a little bit on the haste side. With the new Innervate you shouldnt really have a problem. Your SP is quite low, but since I'm not sure about the numbe on heroic entry, I cant really tell what you should aim for.
But if you did fine on ToC, you should do well on the other heroics overall. Maybe have some difficult here and there, but, overall, you will do fine.
edit. it was 4 am when I wrote that, so bear with me
Edited, Aug 31st 2009 11:31am by Brisin
I'm not quite sure on the numbers, not my main spec and I dont care so much, but I think you lack a little bit on the haste side. With the new Innervate you shouldnt really have a problem. Your SP is quite low, but since I'm not sure about the numbe on heroic entry, I cant really tell what you should aim for.
But if you did fine on ToC, you should do well on the other heroics overall. Maybe have some difficult here and there, but, overall, you will do fine.
edit. it was 4 am when I wrote that, so bear with me
Edited, Aug 31st 2009 11:31am by Brisin
You're perfectly fine for heroics. As already suggested, try to make a daily trip to Nexus and hope for the mace to drop for you. Collect Tournament tokens in the meantime and buy the caster dagger once you can. A decent offhand can be bought from heroic tokens.
You have to keep in mind that your gear is ready for heroics once regular instances don't drop any more upgrades, and you sure have reached that point. Everything else is just skill and decent people to play with.
You have to keep in mind that your gear is ready for heroics once regular instances don't drop any more upgrades, and you sure have reached that point. Everything else is just skill and decent people to play with.
So I'm ready for heroics with the gear I have now? It's just that bad memories of Keri enraging has left me pretty wary of that instance, especially the thought of a heroic enrage... shudder. Oh, by the way, I just got the leather helmet thing from ToC and I need to pop a Meta in it, but which one? The mana-on-cast one or the +3% crit healing effect?
About the Tournament, I have no idea how to get into all that. I know you need to joust, but where do I get a lance and start the quests? I've been to the area, of course, and it all looked awesome, but I couldn't find any quest givers.
Christ, I feel like such a numbnut for asking all these questions when I'm sure it's explained somewhere. Tried looking through EJ threads, but that thread was started back in '08 and they were still discussing Nourish vs. Regrowth at page 51.
Edit: Did a heroic Nexus run - as DPS
1300 failtastic DPS, 1600 on bosses. Seriously, my DK was pumping out numbers like these at level 71 in regulars. What's up? Uh, it's my Feral spec, by the way (Bearcat spec).
Edited, Aug 31st 2009 4:10pm by Mazra
About the Tournament, I have no idea how to get into all that. I know you need to joust, but where do I get a lance and start the quests? I've been to the area, of course, and it all looked awesome, but I couldn't find any quest givers.
Christ, I feel like such a numbnut for asking all these questions when I'm sure it's explained somewhere. Tried looking through EJ threads, but that thread was started back in '08 and they were still discussing Nourish vs. Regrowth at page 51.
Edit: Did a heroic Nexus run - as DPS
1300 failtastic DPS, 1600 on bosses. Seriously, my DK was pumping out numbers like these at level 71 in regulars. What's up? Uh, it's my Feral spec, by the way (Bearcat spec). Edited, Aug 31st 2009 4:10pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Bearcat isnt that much of a great spec for dps, plus, feral usually dont pump a lot of big numbers on heroics, since the bosses and mobs there go down pretty fast. You are lucky when you can get all your rotation on a mob.
One a side note about the healer thing, try to grab the dagger from heroic toc. Is really really good. I use it, since I didnt grabbed any staff on Ulduar (left those for the healers).
One a side note about the healer thing, try to grab the dagger from heroic toc. Is really really good. I use it, since I didnt grabbed any staff on Ulduar (left those for the healers).
My experience as a Feral in Heroic Nexus can be summed up to: "Wut?"
Stuff died before I could get Rip rolling properly (except on bosses) and often I'd find myself losing Savage Roar because I forgot to keep watch on timers. Compared to my Death Knight, this was epic fail in terms of grace and display of excess. I felt like I was mashing buttons that weren't even keybound, keeping my eye on the DoT timers, DBM and Recount while having Omen at the corner of my eye. So many things to focus on and I still couldn't pass the tank in DPS, which is, like, bad. Really bad.
Think I'm gonna focus on Boomkin and Tree and just save the melee DPS for my Death Knight. Can barely handle the pressure healing puts on my nerves. DPS was worse. Way worse.
Stuff died before I could get Rip rolling properly (except on bosses) and often I'd find myself losing Savage Roar because I forgot to keep watch on timers. Compared to my Death Knight, this was epic fail in terms of grace and display of excess. I felt like I was mashing buttons that weren't even keybound, keeping my eye on the DoT timers, DBM and Recount while having Omen at the corner of my eye. So many things to focus on and I still couldn't pass the tank in DPS, which is, like, bad. Really bad.
Think I'm gonna focus on Boomkin and Tree and just save the melee DPS for my Death Knight. Can barely handle the pressure healing puts on my nerves. DPS was worse. Way worse.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Rip is generally a waste on anything with less than 300k hp in my experience; on trash pulls I usually find myself just refreshing SR near constantly, with an errant FB here and there if I get 5cp earlier than expected. If I have to switch targets a lot (the paired ancient whatevers in Ulduar that send the spark back and forth for example) I'll also hit SR before switching targets so I don't waste CP. This usually nets me a higher SR timer than what I had, so it's generally win-win.
Feral deeps in heroics....
Trash.
Assist off the tank for first target, FFF on the way in, Rake for clearcasting procs if you have 2pcT8, if not, Mangle, SR, Swipe, wait a sec and Swipe, Tiger's Fury (kitty spec'd that is for the 60 energy), Swipe, Swipe, Mangle, SR, Swipe, Swipe.
If things aren't dead at this point, group is fail. Make sure you are positioning yourself to hit all the mobs when you use swipe for maximum dps.
Bosses.
FFF on the way in, Mangle, Rake, SR, Berserk, Shred(mangle if in bearcat without the talent to reduce shred cost) to 5cp, Rip, Refresh Rake, Mangle and Rip as you go.
None of the rotation really changes for bearcat except for the loss of Tiger's Fury and the lesser damage from hitting Mangle instead of Shred. You won't get as much dps in that spec, they've really made it so you have to spec as a kitty to get true feral dps as a kitty.
Edited, Aug 31st 2009 3:13pm by Galenmoon
Trash.
Assist off the tank for first target, FFF on the way in, Rake for clearcasting procs if you have 2pcT8, if not, Mangle, SR, Swipe, wait a sec and Swipe, Tiger's Fury (kitty spec'd that is for the 60 energy), Swipe, Swipe, Mangle, SR, Swipe, Swipe.
If things aren't dead at this point, group is fail. Make sure you are positioning yourself to hit all the mobs when you use swipe for maximum dps.
Bosses.
FFF on the way in, Mangle, Rake, SR, Berserk, Shred(mangle if in bearcat without the talent to reduce shred cost) to 5cp, Rip, Refresh Rake, Mangle and Rip as you go.
None of the rotation really changes for bearcat except for the loss of Tiger's Fury and the lesser damage from hitting Mangle instead of Shred. You won't get as much dps in that spec, they've really made it so you have to spec as a kitty to get true feral dps as a kitty.
Edited, Aug 31st 2009 3:13pm by Galenmoon
@ Mazra
My comparable numbers in resto spec
Healing 1432
crit 15.52%
regen 153 w/casting
Intel 816
Spirit 542
Not currently in tree form, but I have no problems with healing heroics. Infact I have the Mace of Unrequited Love from H Nexxus. My gear is a mixture of decent blues, some epics, and crappy greens.
GO FOR IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My comparable numbers in resto spec
Healing 1432
crit 15.52%
regen 153 w/casting
Intel 816
Spirit 542
Not currently in tree form, but I have no problems with healing heroics. Infact I have the Mace of Unrequited Love from H Nexxus. My gear is a mixture of decent blues, some epics, and crappy greens.
GO FOR IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Galenmoon wrote:
Feral deeps in heroics....
Trash.
Assist off the tank for first target, FFF on the way in, Rake for clearcasting procs if you have 2pcT8, if not, Mangle, SR, Swipe, wait a sec and Swipe, Tiger's Fury (kitty spec'd that is for the 60 energy), Swipe, Swipe, Mangle, SR, Swipe, Swipe.
If things aren't dead at this point, group is fail. Make sure you are positioning yourself to hit all the mobs when you use swipe for maximum dps.
Bosses.
FFF on the way in, Mangle, Rake, SR, Berserk, Shred(mangle if in bearcat without the talent to reduce shred cost) to 5cp, Rip, Refresh Rake, Mangle and Rip as you go.
None of the rotation really changes for bearcat except for the loss of Tiger's Fury and the lesser damage from hitting Mangle instead of Shred. You won't get as much dps in that spec, they've really made it so you have to spec as a kitty to get true feral dps as a kitty.
Trash.
Assist off the tank for first target, FFF on the way in, Rake for clearcasting procs if you have 2pcT8, if not, Mangle, SR, Swipe, wait a sec and Swipe, Tiger's Fury (kitty spec'd that is for the 60 energy), Swipe, Swipe, Mangle, SR, Swipe, Swipe.
If things aren't dead at this point, group is fail. Make sure you are positioning yourself to hit all the mobs when you use swipe for maximum dps.
Bosses.
FFF on the way in, Mangle, Rake, SR, Berserk, Shred(mangle if in bearcat without the talent to reduce shred cost) to 5cp, Rip, Refresh Rake, Mangle and Rip as you go.
None of the rotation really changes for bearcat except for the loss of Tiger's Fury and the lesser damage from hitting Mangle instead of Shred. You won't get as much dps in that spec, they've really made it so you have to spec as a kitty to get true feral dps as a kitty.
Thanks for all the advice!
At one point I was like "Rip? Mangle? No, Trauma is up. Wait, forgot Faerie Fire, oh, Warrior is applying one Sunder on targets, never mind. Shred, Shr- oh, to hell with this!" and went Tiger's Fury/Berserk Swipe happy. Increased my DPS from 1300 to around 1600, putting me slightly behind the tank. Still, I was trying to keep track of so many timers, including cooldowns, boss mods and DoTs, while still reciting the priority list from here, I was going nuts.
My Bearcat build includes Tiger's Fury improvement, because I tended to PvP with the spec. Odd mix, I know.
Anyway, I noticed I had a healing piece with 33 hit rating on, so I decided to switch to Boomkin and test it out. I have around 1500 spell power in Moonkin form, with 17% crit and less than awesome haste. Still, I managed to quest just fine, dumping some points in Balance of Power for the +6% hit thing. I figure I'll respec once I get more DPS gear, but right now it's enough to get me through quests and I can still use my Resto spec for healing pretty much anything up to heroics. Life's sweet now.
My Balance build should be updated on my Armory profile. Hints and suggestions are appreciated if anyone cares. I know I don't have Eclipse maxed and I'm not sure if Intensity is a necessary talent. I also have Owlkin Frenzy which isn't really needed for a pure DPS build, but it's very handy while soloing.
It was a sad moment when I sold all my Feral gear to buy respec and glyphs for the Boomkin build, though, but hell, I got that gear in a day of running ToC and the next time I respec to Feral, hopefully I'll have better gear. Now I just need to check my mailbox for those Goldclover auctions so I can buy Insect Swarm.
Other than Insect Swarm and Moonfire, what major glyph do you guys recommend for Boomkin? I currently have the Starfire glyph (increases Moonfire duration on hit), mostly because it seemed valuable and only cost me 9g.
Edit: I just derailed my own thread. Epic fail.. or is it win?
Edited, Aug 31st 2009 11:16pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Faerie fire stacks with Sunder Armor. It's Curse of Weakness that shares the same debuff slot.
AstarintheDruid wrote:
Faerie fire stacks with Sunder Armor. It's Curse of Weakness that shares the same debuff slot.
Wha-? But that makes no sense at all! Curse of Weakness is also -5% armor, right?
Anyway... I'm Lazerchicken now.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Wow I totally missed this one, thread derailed 2x before I spotted it :p
In an attempt not to re-write what others commented on:
*nods* Regrowth went out of style when they buffed Nourish. My use of RG now is mainly when I'm in a hurry and I want to spot-heal and leave a Swift-mendable HoT in less time then it takes to cast Nourish + RJ (with the GCD lockout), and keeping the HoT rolling on the tank when doing MT heals.
Raid healing has been reduced to mainly a 5 RJ + 1 WG spam in 25-mans, with Glyphed-Swiftmend used when needed. Most common glyphs for this are RJ + Swiftmend + WG.
Tank heals involves keeping HoTs (RJ + RG + LB usually) up on the MT while casting Glyphed-Nourish. LB can be used as a 3x stack-roll, a slow stack, or a rinse and repeat kind of thing; depending on your mana and the healing demands. The other 2 glyphs being some combo of the spells you are using, or Innverate to help with the mana-drain.
10-mans are the fun healing for me now. I tend to find a place to weave in most if not all of the spells we have, so it's a lot more enjoyable then 25s IMO. H ToC is a blast, an especially good place for people to learn the 'don't stand in green stuff' lesson ;)
I've wondered this too, may be willing to help out if there are good cookies or something perhaps?
In an attempt not to re-write what others commented on:
Quote:
Ps. Is anyone else finding Regrowth and especially the Regrowth glyph expendable with Nourish? I seldom use Regrowth now that I have Nourish, which is faster and crits for about the same as Regrowth with a couple of HoTs running. Maybe I'm doing it wrong or something? Standard fight means keeping Rejuvenation on the tank, using Wild Growth to heal splash damage and Nourish for that spike heal when the tank dips. With Rejuv and Wild Growth, my glyphed Nourish crits for maybe 100 less than a Regrowth-on-Regrowth crit, but Nourish takes 1.43 seconds to cast with my current gear whereas Regrowth takes 1.91 seconds.
*nods* Regrowth went out of style when they buffed Nourish. My use of RG now is mainly when I'm in a hurry and I want to spot-heal and leave a Swift-mendable HoT in less time then it takes to cast Nourish + RJ (with the GCD lockout), and keeping the HoT rolling on the tank when doing MT heals.
Raid healing has been reduced to mainly a 5 RJ + 1 WG spam in 25-mans, with Glyphed-Swiftmend used when needed. Most common glyphs for this are RJ + Swiftmend + WG.
Tank heals involves keeping HoTs (RJ + RG + LB usually) up on the MT while casting Glyphed-Nourish. LB can be used as a 3x stack-roll, a slow stack, or a rinse and repeat kind of thing; depending on your mana and the healing demands. The other 2 glyphs being some combo of the spells you are using, or Innverate to help with the mana-drain.
10-mans are the fun healing for me now. I tend to find a place to weave in most if not all of the spells we have, so it's a lot more enjoyable then 25s IMO. H ToC is a blast, an especially good place for people to learn the 'don't stand in green stuff' lesson ;)
Quote:
I checked the FAQ, by the way, but the Resto section is lacking compared to the Boomkin and Feral ones.
I've wondered this too, may be willing to help out if there are good cookies or something perhaps?
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
My offspec is resto, but I don't do it enough to claim to be a pro.
And as far as the cookies...I don't have any of those...
But I have beer :P
And as far as the cookies...I don't have any of those...
But I have beer :P
I personally hate ToC, I don't seem to have a group that doesn't fail horribly in some way or another (usually on dpsing the girls Nightmare thing, leading to me desperately healing everyone as they drop off one by one)
My Resto tactics for Tanks in every other H are:
Glyphed regrowth and keep it rolling (it is a nice little increase)
Rejuv
LB if the tank is really really taking a lot of damage
then just WG when there is some raid damage, or WG then nourish if it's a little stronger.
Raids (every PuG will put you on raid heals, learn to live with it) I WG on almost every cd, then hot up the tank to help the main healers and just rejuv+nourish spam everyone.
If the damage is predictable (longer than 10s between hits) I put LB on and let it slowly tick then bloom. Scares the crap out of the dps because they think you're ignoring them, but gets the job done using not much mana.
I'm mostly Ulduar geared, but I still haven't found an upgrade for these two pieces.
I swear the most over-budgeted items available to a resto druid. Especially the pants.
I don't really understand crit as a druid. I tend to get about 70-80% of my healing from hots, that cannot crit and those spells which can crit get buffed crit chances via talents.
Note: Please for the love of all that is holy do not LB roll. Stacking to 3 then keeping it topped off at 3 is just not effective anymore. It makes me cry when I see people still doing that.
I can't check armory right now, but I'm on a smidgen over 2k sp, 1000ish spirit and int, 400ish MP5 while casting (600 OOC) and maybe 10% crit at most? Link if Armory is up. (I need to respec to pick up the changes to empowered touch, those points will come out of gift of the earthmother when I stop being lazy and go do it.)
My advice to you mazra is ditch all the crit you can, stack spirit with gear and sp with gems, enchant for sp/spirit and go heal stuff.
Also if you have some spare cash I can't recommend these two enough.
Edit: wow, long long post.
For your meta, I use Ember Skyflare Diamond, but Bracing Earthseige is a good option too. I don't use the mana on spellcast one because frankly mana isn't an issue for me.
Edited, Sep 1st 2009 12:40pm by slightlysober
My Resto tactics for Tanks in every other H are:
Glyphed regrowth and keep it rolling (it is a nice little increase)
Rejuv
LB if the tank is really really taking a lot of damage
then just WG when there is some raid damage, or WG then nourish if it's a little stronger.
Raids (every PuG will put you on raid heals, learn to live with it) I WG on almost every cd, then hot up the tank to help the main healers and just rejuv+nourish spam everyone.
If the damage is predictable (longer than 10s between hits) I put LB on and let it slowly tick then bloom. Scares the crap out of the dps because they think you're ignoring them, but gets the job done using not much mana.
I'm mostly Ulduar geared, but I still haven't found an upgrade for these two pieces.
I swear the most over-budgeted items available to a resto druid. Especially the pants.
I don't really understand crit as a druid. I tend to get about 70-80% of my healing from hots, that cannot crit and those spells which can crit get buffed crit chances via talents.
Note: Please for the love of all that is holy do not LB roll. Stacking to 3 then keeping it topped off at 3 is just not effective anymore. It makes me cry when I see people still doing that.
I can't check armory right now, but I'm on a smidgen over 2k sp, 1000ish spirit and int, 400ish MP5 while casting (600 OOC) and maybe 10% crit at most? Link if Armory is up. (I need to respec to pick up the changes to empowered touch, those points will come out of gift of the earthmother when I stop being lazy and go do it.)
My advice to you mazra is ditch all the crit you can, stack spirit with gear and sp with gems, enchant for sp/spirit and go heal stuff.
Also if you have some spare cash I can't recommend these two enough.
Edit: wow, long long post.
For your meta, I use Ember Skyflare Diamond, but Bracing Earthseige is a good option too. I don't use the mana on spellcast one because frankly mana isn't an issue for me.
Edited, Sep 1st 2009 12:40pm by slightlysober
Quote:
Note: Please for the love of all that is holy do not LB roll. Stacking to 3 then keeping it topped off at 3 is just not effective anymore. It makes me cry when I see people still doing that.
RJ + RG HoT + LBx3 roll + Glyphed Nourish is the max single target HPS rotation, so there is logic behind a 3-stack roll. LBx3 also has the highest HPS, on a single target, of any of the HoTs.
That being said I think most druids will find the mana costs of keeping LBx3 rolling for long periods of time prohibitive. This means a lot of times LBx3 rolling will be limited to shorter time-frames when you need maximum healing on a target, for example during a soft-enrage in a boss fight. If you can manage to LBx3 roll for an entire fight, kudos to you, I'm jealous. :p
Quote:
But I have beer :P
mmmm.... beer....
Edited, Sep 1st 2009 9:02am by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Quote:
Note: Please for the love of all that is holy do not LB roll. Stacking to 3 then keeping it topped off at 3 is just not effective anymore. It makes me cry when I see people still doing that.
I don't raid on this toon yet. So in 5 man pugs I start off with LBx3 to see how much damage they take right off the bat. Otherwise I just use one or two depending on the tank. Keep rejuve up and WG on dps as needed.
I thinks LB is a lovely spell to have running on the tank so you can focus on the dps and not worry your tank is gonna drop dead. However, if I needed to keep LBx3 rolling for the entire time, I'd leave the group and find a different tank.
Just my 2 cents
Thanks for the advice, slightlysober (there might be something about druids and alcohol after all).
I went with the mana return meta simply because I'm scared sh*tless of running out of mana. Might have to change it to get some more spell power, though. The legguards look nice, but I got the cloth ones from ToC with a belt buckle, so I've got more spell power on that one than your legguards, plus they cost me nothing, so they're cheaper
Need to work on my spirit, spell power and haste. Not sure if 5/5 GotEM is really needed for heroics and such. Lowered global cooldown on Rejuv/Lifebloom/WG sounds nice, but is it needed when you're not rolling HoTs on multiple groups? It's five points, so I could free up a lot of points for other talents, like maxing out Tranquil Spirit which would increase my mana efficiency a lot since I'm turning away from Regrowth and towards Nourish as my direct heal.
.5 less global cooldown sounds an awful lot like min/maxing to me.
Edited, Sep 1st 2009 11:19pm by Mazra
I went with the mana return meta simply because I'm scared sh*tless of running out of mana. Might have to change it to get some more spell power, though. The legguards look nice, but I got the cloth ones from ToC with a belt buckle, so I've got more spell power on that one than your legguards, plus they cost me nothing, so they're cheaper
Need to work on my spirit, spell power and haste. Not sure if 5/5 GotEM is really needed for heroics and such. Lowered global cooldown on Rejuv/Lifebloom/WG sounds nice, but is it needed when you're not rolling HoTs on multiple groups? It's five points, so I could free up a lot of points for other talents, like maxing out Tranquil Spirit which would increase my mana efficiency a lot since I'm turning away from Regrowth and towards Nourish as my direct heal.
.5 less global cooldown sounds an awful lot like min/maxing to me.
Edited, Sep 1st 2009 11:19pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Quote:
Not sure if 5/5 GotEM is really needed for heroics and such
In general it's good to take 5/5 til you reach the haste soft-cap, and start backing off from there. Soft-cap numbers can be found here but either 360 or 400 is the number usually thrown around as a ballpark. The healing-per-second-of-cast-time numbers are highest for your HoTs, so it's usually best to max out their numbers first, and you'll generally get more HPM (healing per mana) out of them. Mana shouldn't be a problem once you are all geared up.
That being said the talent points certainly aren't essential to heal heroics. :)
Quote:
But I have beer :P
I tossed some info up in the Druid 202 thread if you'd like to look over it Galenmoon, Slightlysober, or any of the other healy-type druids. It's at least a start till I have more time to work on it.
Beer me! ;-)
Edited, Sep 1st 2009 3:10pm by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
When I said LBx3 roll I was thinking of the druid who healed me yesterday through CoS and kept it up the whole time, even for trash.
But I didn't realise that keeping it rolling on a tank was better HPS than letting it bloom, restacking then spamming nourish the whole time.
And the meta is pretty much up to you, I don't think that any of the few options stand out as being incredibly better than the others.
/thread hijack go!
Protein, everything you said looks fine to me, the only problem is that it's not how I heal.
Resto druids are one of the more 'style' friendly specs out there, and trying to write a sticky for them could be tricky.
For example you say the WG glyph is near essential. I've never had it and never felt I needed it. I tend to wg, rejuv if damage is big and then just nourish spam.
Same thing with the rejuv glyph, if I'm putting rejuv on people with less than 50% health the possibility of them falling to splash damage is higher than I would like...
I also tend to ignore revitalise because it seems such a waste of points.
The one thing I notice you don't take that I would consider almost essential is 5/5 tranquil spirit. Being able to cast nourish more is a really good tool for lots of encounters where you've hotted everyone up and they're still dieing.
But it all comes down to playstyle. I prefer more mana, so I take more of the talents that let me keep my mana longer. If you're having no mana issues but are struggling with throughput then perhaps some of the more power oriented talents are for you...
But I didn't realise that keeping it rolling on a tank was better HPS than letting it bloom, restacking then spamming nourish the whole time.
And the meta is pretty much up to you, I don't think that any of the few options stand out as being incredibly better than the others.
/thread hijack go!
Protein, everything you said looks fine to me, the only problem is that it's not how I heal.
Resto druids are one of the more 'style' friendly specs out there, and trying to write a sticky for them could be tricky.
For example you say the WG glyph is near essential. I've never had it and never felt I needed it. I tend to wg, rejuv if damage is big and then just nourish spam.
Same thing with the rejuv glyph, if I'm putting rejuv on people with less than 50% health the possibility of them falling to splash damage is higher than I would like...
I also tend to ignore revitalise because it seems such a waste of points.
The one thing I notice you don't take that I would consider almost essential is 5/5 tranquil spirit. Being able to cast nourish more is a really good tool for lots of encounters where you've hotted everyone up and they're still dieing.
But it all comes down to playstyle. I prefer more mana, so I take more of the talents that let me keep my mana longer. If you're having no mana issues but are struggling with throughput then perhaps some of the more power oriented talents are for you...
@ sober
Ya it's kind of interesting trying to put it together. There's quite simply a lot of different methods for druid healing that will work reasonably well. I can read EJ and put down the numbers they have, and some of the number crunching I've done myself, but that doesn't capture of totality of what we can do.
Blizzard, for better or for worse, has balanced druid healing to the point where every one of the spells we have seems to have, at minimum, situational usefulness, which is great. However this leads to a variety of play styles, all of which it's really hard to capture in a single sticky. I'm guessing this is part of the reason it has been incomplete for so long, and the reason the base build I listed has 16 unused talent points...
There's some good numbers on this here, and post 1309 on the previous page is actually a bit better. It turns out to be a surprisingly strong talent, I know I was surprised when I first saw the numbers. Really though it is still more or less optional, like most of the talents. I simply chose it because I needed points to get to WG, and if your trying to maximize your raid-wide HPS you are using 5 RJ + WG, which means Living Seed, and Natural Perfection don't really do you any good.
For example you say the WG glyph is near essential. I've never had it and never felt I needed it. I tend to wg, rejuv if damage is big and then just nourish spam.
WG is the one glyph I've seen probably the most commonly in raid-healing builds. There are certainly instances where it isn't needed. It's likely most important if you have a melee-heavy raid. Certainly fights where spreading out is essential it's basically useless, given that you'll be lucky if your WG hits 2 targets, much less 6. That being said though, if you are in to going min/max on your raid healing potential the WG glyph is necessary, as is RJ and Swiftmend. But as we all know mix/max isn't everything,. Being tops on the healing meters and losing people to spike damage doesn't = progression.
The thought with this glyph is that you are pre-hotting the entire raid with RJ and this gives you a buffer when someone's health drops below 50%. That being said < 50% is where most people react with a direct heal, instead of letting them linger with low health. Usually the benefit of this glyph is minor, but given the fact you'll likely be rolling RJ on the whole raid it gets proc'd enough to make it worthwhile.
5/5 tranquil spirit is almost needed if you are largely using your direct heals (Nourish, etc.). I used to have several points here myself, till I moved them to the new improved empowered touch. However I assumed for 25s raid healing, you'd be using a 5 RJ + WG rotation, and having this account for 90%+ of your healing in order to maximize your output. Meaning that the points in Tranquil Spirit would likely be underutilized.
Again though, (do I sound like a broken record yet? :p) healing in 25s is different then healing in 10s, which is different then healing in 5s... I almost feel the need to have different builds of each situation myself, but I don't feel like re-specing that much. Direct healing talents certainly play a larger role in 10s where you are likely to be using them more frequently.
Edited to add:
If it helps the increase in HPS is partly due to the fact it takes 1 GCD to roll LB and 3 to re-stack it. It the time it takes to apply the 2 additional stacks you could have cast Nourish about 2 times. However in general it's better to keep the HoTs up as a first priority as the 1) increase the strength of Nourish, and 2) all have a better HPSC (Healing per second of cast-time).
There is a similar argument for doing the RJ + WG spam. Let's say Nourish can heal for about 6-11k (it can crit ;-))right now, but RJ, at a similar spellpower, will do 13-15k over it's duration. They both take a similar about of time to cast (RJ is usually a little faster due to GotEM talent points), so your overall amount of potential healing will go up if you, for example, spam RJ instead of Nourish. Which one ends up higher in practice will likely depend on the encounter and the amount of over-healing.
Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 12:18pm by someproteinguy
Ya it's kind of interesting trying to put it together. There's quite simply a lot of different methods for druid healing that will work reasonably well. I can read EJ and put down the numbers they have, and some of the number crunching I've done myself, but that doesn't capture of totality of what we can do.
Blizzard, for better or for worse, has balanced druid healing to the point where every one of the spells we have seems to have, at minimum, situational usefulness, which is great. However this leads to a variety of play styles, all of which it's really hard to capture in a single sticky. I'm guessing this is part of the reason it has been incomplete for so long, and the reason the base build I listed has 16 unused talent points...
Quote:
I also tend to ignore revitalize because it seems such a waste of points.
There's some good numbers on this here, and post 1309 on the previous page is actually a bit better. It turns out to be a surprisingly strong talent, I know I was surprised when I first saw the numbers. Really though it is still more or less optional, like most of the talents. I simply chose it because I needed points to get to WG, and if your trying to maximize your raid-wide HPS you are using 5 RJ + WG, which means Living Seed, and Natural Perfection don't really do you any good.
Quote:
For example you say the WG glyph is near essential. I've never had it and never felt I needed it. I tend to wg, rejuv if damage is big and then just nourish spam.
WG is the one glyph I've seen probably the most commonly in raid-healing builds. There are certainly instances where it isn't needed. It's likely most important if you have a melee-heavy raid. Certainly fights where spreading out is essential it's basically useless, given that you'll be lucky if your WG hits 2 targets, much less 6. That being said though, if you are in to going min/max on your raid healing potential the WG glyph is necessary, as is RJ and Swiftmend. But as we all know mix/max isn't everything,. Being tops on the healing meters and losing people to spike damage doesn't = progression.
Quote:
Same thing with the rejuv glyph, if I'm putting rejuv on people with less than 50% health the possibility of them falling to splash damage is higher than I would like...
The thought with this glyph is that you are pre-hotting the entire raid with RJ and this gives you a buffer when someone's health drops below 50%. That being said < 50% is where most people react with a direct heal, instead of letting them linger with low health. Usually the benefit of this glyph is minor, but given the fact you'll likely be rolling RJ on the whole raid it gets proc'd enough to make it worthwhile.
Quote:
The one thing I notice you don't take that I would consider almost essential is 5/5 tranquil spirit. Being able to cast nourish more is a really good tool for lots of encounters where you've hotted everyone up and they're still dieing.
5/5 tranquil spirit is almost needed if you are largely using your direct heals (Nourish, etc.). I used to have several points here myself, till I moved them to the new improved empowered touch. However I assumed for 25s raid healing, you'd be using a 5 RJ + WG rotation, and having this account for 90%+ of your healing in order to maximize your output. Meaning that the points in Tranquil Spirit would likely be underutilized.
Again though, (do I sound like a broken record yet? :p) healing in 25s is different then healing in 10s, which is different then healing in 5s... I almost feel the need to have different builds of each situation myself, but I don't feel like re-specing that much. Direct healing talents certainly play a larger role in 10s where you are likely to be using them more frequently.
Edited to add:
Quote:
When I said LBx3 roll I was thinking of the druid who healed me yesterday through CoS and kept it up the whole time, even for trash.
But I didn't realise that keeping it rolling on a tank was better HPS than letting it bloom, restacking then spamming nourish the whole time.
But I didn't realise that keeping it rolling on a tank was better HPS than letting it bloom, restacking then spamming nourish the whole time.
If it helps the increase in HPS is partly due to the fact it takes 1 GCD to roll LB and 3 to re-stack it. It the time it takes to apply the 2 additional stacks you could have cast Nourish about 2 times. However in general it's better to keep the HoTs up as a first priority as the 1) increase the strength of Nourish, and 2) all have a better HPSC (Healing per second of cast-time).
There is a similar argument for doing the RJ + WG spam. Let's say Nourish can heal for about 6-11k (it can crit ;-))right now, but RJ, at a similar spellpower, will do 13-15k over it's duration. They both take a similar about of time to cast (RJ is usually a little faster due to GotEM talent points), so your overall amount of potential healing will go up if you, for example, spam RJ instead of Nourish. Which one ends up higher in practice will likely depend on the encounter and the amount of over-healing.
Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 12:18pm by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
A great thread that has given me lots of ideas - especially someproteinguy. Very insightful, thanks. I have been healing as a druid for a while but have begun to doubt my 'method'. Essentially it boils down to what a lot of people have touched on but arose because we recently recruited another druid healer who stacks SP and crit (more boomkin?) while I am more int, spirit and haste. As a consequence he seems to heal hard and fast and pops an innervate nearly every combat round. While I chug along healing but never innervating (except for extreme boss fights where the DPS goes AWOL). Also he tends to fire off RJ alot while I'm more of RG kinda-tree. His HPS is currently 300 or so more than me and tbh I'm feeling a bit left behind (both our gear is suitable for Naxx-25). I notice some of the new gear (from heroic ToC 5-man) has +crit and +haste - does this seem a valid solution to try and get more crits or am I wasting time and should re-evaluate my whole healing strategy?
Anyway I have a lot of reading to do so thanks for all the info!
Protein wrote:
The thought with this glyph is that you are pre-hotting the entire raid with RJ and this gives you a buffer when someone's health drops below 50%. That being said < 50% is where most people react with a direct heal, instead of letting them linger with low health. Usually the benefit of this glyph is minor, but given the fact you'll likely be rolling RJ on the whole raid it gets proc'd enough to make it worthwhile.
I really never bother about min-maxing, my guild is a bunch of semi-talented idiots, but I have fun and really like some of the core people, so I hang around :)
And real life > WoW, which has annoyed some of the more serious guilds I've joined.
I took a look at the EJ's thread and I'm still not convinced on the power of revatilise, it offers a small dps increase to non-mana classes but frankly 25-30mp5 is not worth the points.
My Guild is ranged heavy though, so taking the WG glyph always seemed such a waste (we had only ranged dps in Uld the other night)
I take your point on the rolling LB's though, I might experiment with that sometime
Quote:
my guild is a bunch of semi-talented idiots
Made me laugh, sounds like a good group! :)
My guild is mostly a bunch of semi-retired raider types. Several of us raided seriously in the past, but now due to family, jobs, and other time constraints we're limited to only a few hours a week, and don't have the time to keep up attendance in a more serious guild. Adult rec. soccer league meets the internet kinda thing. :p
Quote:
(we had only ranged dps in Uld the other night)
I'm so jealous right now. We're always melee heavy. In a sense that's probably part of the reason I make good use out of the WG glyph, it's unusual that it doesn't hit 6 targets even in our 10 mans.
WTB someone who can hit the dragon without having to stand in the fire...
@ dashwoe
In general for a druid Haste > Crit until you are soft-capped, however this partly assumes you are getting the majority of your healing from non-critable spells (RJ, WG, LB ticks). I'm not sure where the tipping point is for this. My understanding is that at about 85% non-critable healing, haste was about 3x as good as crit for druids. Either way once you hit the soft cap on haste you have the option of:
1) continuing to stack haste, and moving some of the talent points from Gift of the Earthmother to other places, or
2) stacking critical to boost the healing on your critable spells
Both are reasonable decisions at that point, and what you choose to do will likely come down to playstyle, and luck with gear drops. ;)
Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 9:16am by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
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