Hello everyone. I need your help in choosing a tank build for my DK.
First of all - my goal and my gear. Goal is simple - farming badges in heroics. I don't care about raids (i just don't like them so there is nothing to discuss about them). Most of the time i do heroics in PuGs. About my gear - item level 200-226 full epic with 30k hp, def cap, 20% dodge, 18% parry and 25k armor (i can't tell the exact numbers cause there is a weekly maintenace atm). I've been a frost tank for a long time, but now i am considering a blood tank build. And so i need your help.
I will link my (current) frost build and 2 blood builds that came to my mind:
1) http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMZhxxxA0Izc0buzAo0xb
2) http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEGqI0IsbRboot0xZ0tG
3) http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jMEGoIhI0bMbooZhg0t0rhZ0xb
So i want to know which of them would be better for:
1) Survival
2) 1 mob threat
3) multi-mob threat
And considering those 3 factors which build should i choose for heroics? And should i adjust the 1 that is better or leave it as it is now?
Thx for your answers and sorry for my english.
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IMO, with the kind of DPS we have running heroics these days, you should focus more on multimob threat.
Frost is almost 'brainless' in this aspect.
For MultiMOb, this is what I do: DnD->HB->BB->BB, dump. This would get you enough snap threat for all your DPS to start with AOE :)
For Single, it's up to you, but mostly OB/RS/FS I suppose.
Anyway, for your Frost build, I dont think IcyTalons is worthwhile. 5 mans dont really benefit that much from the raid buff. I would rather put those 6 points elsewhere, e.g. Merciless combat, DarkConviction
Frost is almost 'brainless' in this aspect.
For MultiMOb, this is what I do: DnD->HB->BB->BB, dump. This would get you enough snap threat for all your DPS to start with AOE :)
For Single, it's up to you, but mostly OB/RS/FS I suppose.
Anyway, for your Frost build, I dont think IcyTalons is worthwhile. 5 mans dont really benefit that much from the raid buff. I would rather put those 6 points elsewhere, e.g. Merciless combat, DarkConviction
First things first, your third build will suck. Frigid Deathplate's a good tanking talent but to reach it you're throwing 15 points in frost that are all fairly useless. Except Frigid Deathplate and Toughness, nothing you've picked up in that tree will really improve your tanking. As it stands, what you've got in the frost tree is an odd variant of a PvP spec.
Then, to answer your question: frost would be better for survival, blood for single-target tanking and unholy used to be the king of AOE tanking - I haven't seen it into play since the patch, but apperantly it still is.
If it helps, here is my current blood tanking build. The reason it looks like it does is because A) I'm not a fan of Rune Tap in a tanking build, it feels like I don't really need it, B) It's focused mainly on heroics - I'll swap around some points when/if I get into raids and C) Currently, I prefer having the utility of things like Hysteria, Epidemic and Bloodworms over anything else I can currently pick - I'm not doing hardcore endgame so while the 6 points won't make too much of a difference statwise they will simply make life a lot easier for me. That said, I could probably grab DRW and do some decent DPS in the same spec as well, but I don't quite feel like I need it yet.
Aside from all that, just some random things:
-Get rid of Mark of Blood. I used to think it was alrightish, but just think about it. How many bosses (raids and heroics) actually hit you in such a way (quick low damage melee blasts) that Mark of Blood would make a difference when used on them? In Ulduar for example, there is *one* such a boss which hits so hard that the 4% heal isn't going to matter anyway since 2 seconds without heals kills you.
-Ask yourself if you need Scent of Blood. I've never ever picked it in any tanking build because I rarely find myself out of runic power. Is it worth dropping those 1/3 points there?
-Same thing for Rune Tap. If you really focus on heroics only I guess it might be more useful than in raids, but still - look up the average heroic boss and see how Rune Tap would fit into that fight.
-Get rid of Imp Blood Presence. You tank in frost presence (shamefully), and 4% healing on your damage done equals at most something like 100 hps. That's just not ever going to save your *** or be useful at all.
-Last but not least, drop Unholy Command. It's a PvP talent, nothing else. You've got another short-cooldown taunt next to Death Grip, if a DPS manages to outaggro you so bad you need 3 taunts in a row to keep the mob on you either you are or he is doing something completely wrong anyway.
-Consider Might of Mograine, Sudden Doom or Bloodworms for threat, and Ravenous Death for the little statboost.
Then, to answer your question: frost would be better for survival, blood for single-target tanking and unholy used to be the king of AOE tanking - I haven't seen it into play since the patch, but apperantly it still is.
If it helps, here is my current blood tanking build. The reason it looks like it does is because A) I'm not a fan of Rune Tap in a tanking build, it feels like I don't really need it, B) It's focused mainly on heroics - I'll swap around some points when/if I get into raids and C) Currently, I prefer having the utility of things like Hysteria, Epidemic and Bloodworms over anything else I can currently pick - I'm not doing hardcore endgame so while the 6 points won't make too much of a difference statwise they will simply make life a lot easier for me. That said, I could probably grab DRW and do some decent DPS in the same spec as well, but I don't quite feel like I need it yet.
Aside from all that, just some random things:
-Get rid of Mark of Blood. I used to think it was alrightish, but just think about it. How many bosses (raids and heroics) actually hit you in such a way (quick low damage melee blasts) that Mark of Blood would make a difference when used on them? In Ulduar for example, there is *one* such a boss which hits so hard that the 4% heal isn't going to matter anyway since 2 seconds without heals kills you.
-Ask yourself if you need Scent of Blood. I've never ever picked it in any tanking build because I rarely find myself out of runic power. Is it worth dropping those 1/3 points there?
-Same thing for Rune Tap. If you really focus on heroics only I guess it might be more useful than in raids, but still - look up the average heroic boss and see how Rune Tap would fit into that fight.
-Get rid of Imp Blood Presence. You tank in frost presence (shamefully), and 4% healing on your damage done equals at most something like 100 hps. That's just not ever going to save your *** or be useful at all.
-Last but not least, drop Unholy Command. It's a PvP talent, nothing else. You've got another short-cooldown taunt next to Death Grip, if a DPS manages to outaggro you so bad you need 3 taunts in a row to keep the mob on you either you are or he is doing something completely wrong anyway.
-Consider Might of Mograine, Sudden Doom or Bloodworms for threat, and Ravenous Death for the little statboost.
Quote:
-Get rid of Mark of Blood. I used to think it was alrightish, but just think about it. How many bosses (raids and heroics) actually hit you in such a way (quick low damage melee blasts) that Mark of Blood would make a difference when used on them? In Ulduar for example, there is *one* such a boss which hits so hard that the 4% heal isn't going to matter anyway since 2 seconds without heals kills you.
Most blood tanks take Mark of Blood. I do. This is not a great way to think about this talent. The hit doesn't have to be less than 4% of your life. If it is under 4% it heals you, if it is under, it mitigates the damage. 40k life x 4%= 1600. If you get hit for 5k, then MoB isn't wasted, you just really got hit for 3400. It doesn't have to give you more HP for it to be useful.
I use it often on XT's AoE for example. In 10 man it mitigates 2 hits person. It helps out the healers a bit.
If someone doesn't want this talent then that's fine. But think of all its uses and not just a pigeonholed example.
Quote:
Get rid of Imp Blood Presence. You tank in frost presence (shamefully), and 4% healing on your damage done equals at most something like 100 hps. That's just not ever going to save your *** or be useful at all.
I've gone over this in another post, but IBP is a valid tanking ability. Again, if someone wants it or not is up to them. But it can be useful. IBP + RT/IRT + MoB + VB all add up.
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Consider Might of Mograine, Sudden Doom or Bloodworms for threat, and Ravenous Death for the little statboost.
Blood worms do not add threat from what I've seen/read.
EDIT: added IBP and Blood worm discussion.
Edited, Aug 13th 2009 12:16pm by Gikkers
Quote:
Most blood tanks take Mark of Blood. I do. This is not a great way to think about this talent. The hit doesn't have to be less than 4% of your life. If it is under 4% it heals you, if it is under, it mitigates the damage. 40k life x 4%= 1600. If you get hit for 5k, then MoB isn't wasted, you just really got hit for 3400. It doesn't have to give you more HP for it to be useful.
I use it often on XT's AoE for example. In 10 man it mitigates 2 hits person. It helps out the healers a bit.
If someone doesn't want this talent then that's fine. But think of all its uses and not just a pigeonholed example.
I use it often on XT's AoE for example. In 10 man it mitigates 2 hits person. It helps out the healers a bit.
If someone doesn't want this talent then that's fine. But think of all its uses and not just a pigeonholed example.
I am not thinking a pigeonholed example at all, in fact. I was seriously considering picking up the talent when I went and see how much use it was in the instance I run most of the time right now (on my main), which is Ulduar. The problem with it is that you will either be parrying/dodging attacks or getting hit for such huge amounts that Mark of Blood barely has a noticeable effect. Your healers will be mostly spam healing you and you will be either stuck at 100% health or gliding from 100% to 30/40/50% and right back to 100%. A poor HoT like the mark simply isn't worth anything with the way spike damage currently works. That, and the fact that it costs you a rune makes it a pointless talent.
Also, since when does MoB work on AoE? It works only on melee hits done by the target (to you).
By all means, give it a go - it's probably better in heroics than in raids, but you're going to come to the same conclusion I've arrived at.
Quote:
I've gone over this in another post, but IBP is a valid tanking ability. Again, if someone wants it or not is up to them. But it can be useful. IBP + RT/IRT + MoB + VB all add up.
Sure, it's not per definition a negative talent, but there's better places to put those 2 points.
Quote:
Blood worms do not add threat from what I've seen/read.
Aye, that's true, my bad. I got confused with the blood DPS spec where you pick it up because they add some DPS.
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Also, since when does MoB work on AoE?
For as long as I have been using it at least. It works on AoE.
I do Ulduar 10 raids everyweek with guild. We do 25s here and there. I've come to the conclusion that with out these skills, I'm frost with less chance to be missed. It is blood's form of mitigation. I use MoB every fight (probably several times) as well as everything else.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree many of your comments (MoM, RD, etc.). We're going to disagree on MoB and IBP obviously, but to say they aren't worth it at all isn't accurate. I use these extensively and with great success.
Reread the Mark of Blood tooltip:
Place a Mark of Blood on an enemy. Whenever the marked enemy deals damage to a target, that target is healed for 4% of its maximum health. Lasts for 20 sec or up to 20 hits.
Mark of Blood is great for any AE fight to mitigate damage for your entire group or raid. XT Tantrums, ToC Black Knight Ghost stage, HoL Lokien lightning novas, etc.
Place a Mark of Blood on an enemy. Whenever the marked enemy deals damage to a target, that target is healed for 4% of its maximum health. Lasts for 20 sec or up to 20 hits.
Mark of Blood is great for any AE fight to mitigate damage for your entire group or raid. XT Tantrums, ToC Black Knight Ghost stage, HoL Lokien lightning novas, etc.
3 posts
Thx Every1!
In the end i decided to stay in frost with this build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMZhgx0AzI0f0buzAo0xh
And maybe soon i will try blood tank spec with this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMqI0IcbRfoot0xZ0thh
In the end i decided to stay in frost with this build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMZhgx0AzI0f0buzAo0xh
And maybe soon i will try blood tank spec with this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMqI0IcbRfoot0xZ0thh
Regardless of everything else, in that blood spec you'll want to swap Sudden Doom with Might of Mograine. 45% more damage on your crits is going to help you a lot more threat and DPS-wise than 15% chance on an ocassional 'weak crit'.
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