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3.2 socketingFollow
So is crit or agi going to become the new socket for PvP? I know the best right now is +32 ap, but with resil change might it be better to stack agi and crit?
Right now, it is AP for double dps, AGI for dps/healer. Always has since s2.
3.2 is just going to put further emphasis on it.
3.2 is just going to put further emphasis on it.
Well, the value of AP is going to go down, while the value of crit stays the same.
How do you figure that the value of AP is going to go down?
Currently AP benefits white hits and yellow hits, white crits and yellow crits.
As a rogue, your chance to crit on yellow hits is higher than white hits talented for pvp because first you are (most likely) hit capped for yellow damage, and with white hits you may miss attacks that would've been crits. Also, certain talents like Puncturing Wounds increase the critical chance of your yellow abilities.
The resilience change is adding the xx bonus damage reduction against crit damage and DoT/mana drain damage to non-crits.
Yellow hits are going to become better, white hits are going to become worse, and crits are just as gimped as they usually are, whereas AP is now nerfed in all 2 areas: hits and crits.
That's how I figure the value of AP is going down.
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 12:12pm by morgorg
As a rogue, your chance to crit on yellow hits is higher than white hits talented for pvp because first you are (most likely) hit capped for yellow damage, and with white hits you may miss attacks that would've been crits. Also, certain talents like Puncturing Wounds increase the critical chance of your yellow abilities.
The resilience change is adding the xx bonus damage reduction against crit damage and DoT/mana drain damage to non-crits.
Yellow hits are going to become better, white hits are going to become worse, and crits are just as gimped as they usually are, whereas AP is now nerfed in all 2 areas: hits and crits.
That's how I figure the value of AP is going down.
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 12:12pm by morgorg
morgorg wrote:
Currently AP benefits white hits and yellow hits, white hits and crits.
As a rogue, your chance to crit on yellow hits is higher than white hits talented for pvp because first you are (most likely) hit capped for yellow damage, and with white hits you may miss attacks that would've been crits. Also, certain talents like Puncturing Wounds increase the critical chance of your yellow abilities.
The resilience change is adding the xx bonus damage reduction against crit damage and DoT/mana drain damage to non-crits.
Yellow hits are going to become better, white hits are going to become worse, and crits are just as gimped as they usually are, whereas AP is now nerfed in all 2 areas: hits and crits.
That's how I figure the value of AP is going down.
As a rogue, your chance to crit on yellow hits is higher than white hits talented for pvp because first you are (most likely) hit capped for yellow damage, and with white hits you may miss attacks that would've been crits. Also, certain talents like Puncturing Wounds increase the critical chance of your yellow abilities.
The resilience change is adding the xx bonus damage reduction against crit damage and DoT/mana drain damage to non-crits.
Yellow hits are going to become better, white hits are going to become worse, and crits are just as gimped as they usually are, whereas AP is now nerfed in all 2 areas: hits and crits.
That's how I figure the value of AP is going down.
Er, that doesn't make AP less valuable.
So you're saying that because of resilience, you shouldn't stack AP after the patch?
Yeah, good one. Let's just stop stacking AP altogether and go back to stacking Stam; that really worked well for people in S1 and S2, when rogues had their lowest representation.
Basically, even if AP is getting nerfed for white damage, Agi is getting nerfed harder, as it gives less AP. That you don't understand that blows my mind.
His half-assed understanding of the one-roll combat system blows my mind lol.
Also, yellow hits are getting nerfed just as much as dots/crits vs. high resil targets. So you fail.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 10:30pm by Banatu
Also, yellow hits are getting nerfed just as much as dots/crits vs. high resil targets. So you fail.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 10:30pm by Banatu
Banatu wrote:
His half-assed understanding of the one-roll combat system blows my mind lol.
Also, yellow hits are getting nerfed just as much as dots/crits vs. high resil targets. So you fail.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 10:30pm by Banatu
Also, yellow hits are getting nerfed just as much as dots/crits vs. high resil targets. So you fail.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 10:30pm by Banatu
His understanding of yellow attacks in PvP is correct, he was just making a stupid assumption that Agi wasn't getting nerfed.
It's AP that's getting nerfed, but it's also Agi that's getting nerfed, because Agi gives rogues AP.
Ergo, AP is still better, because it gives a larger damage increase.
AP is and still will be best stat to socket for pvp. AP gems/enchants give double that of agility 16agi to 32ap, whilst agility gives some crit and dodge I still see AP to be the best.
Dodge in 3.2 means we actually need more agility to get the same amount of dodge, about 15% more afiak.
Also with the new resillience changes in 3.2 agility becomes nerfed in pvp as resillience will effect crit chance reduction, crit dmg reduction and overall dmg reduction. Whereas with AP you only lose overall dmg reduction.
Dodge in 3.2 means we actually need more agility to get the same amount of dodge, about 15% more afiak.
Also with the new resillience changes in 3.2 agility becomes nerfed in pvp as resillience will effect crit chance reduction, crit dmg reduction and overall dmg reduction. Whereas with AP you only lose overall dmg reduction.
No, I'm not saying we should suddenly switch all of our socketing drastically. I'm wondering if the value of AP went down enough while the value of crit (and not agi) went up enough to make it more beneficial to socket crit instead of AP, but if my reasoning why AP is less valuable with the changes to resilience isn't sound, please explain in terms that a 10 year old could understand, because I don't understand this:
This seems untrue because if you're getting 32 AP and it gets nerfed by some arbitrary value like 20%, then the benefit of that gem is at 80%, whereas the benefit of AP weighed against the benefit of crit dodge and armor is not 100% with a +16 agi gem, so it's getting nerfed by less than 20%- Only the AP value is getting nerfed. If AP makes up for 75% of the agi gem's value, then the AP value goes to 60% and the rest of the gem makes the total value at 85%.
Knowing Theo, he's probably right, so please explain.
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 12:13pm by morgorg
Quote:
Basically, even if AP is getting nerfed for white damage, Agi is getting nerfed harder, as it gives less AP
This seems untrue because if you're getting 32 AP and it gets nerfed by some arbitrary value like 20%, then the benefit of that gem is at 80%, whereas the benefit of AP weighed against the benefit of crit dodge and armor is not 100% with a +16 agi gem, so it's getting nerfed by less than 20%- Only the AP value is getting nerfed. If AP makes up for 75% of the agi gem's value, then the AP value goes to 60% and the rest of the gem makes the total value at 85%.
Knowing Theo, he's probably right, so please explain.
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 12:13pm by morgorg
Seriously tho.
No math needed. AP for double dps, AGI for healers.
No math needed. AP for double dps, AGI for healers.
morgorg wrote:
Quote:
Basically, even if AP is getting nerfed for white damage, Agi is getting nerfed harder, as it gives less AP
This seems untrue because if you're getting 32 AP and it gets nerfed by some arbitrary value like 20%, then the benefit of that gem is at 80%, whereas the benefit of AP weighed against the benefit of crit dodge and armor is not 100% with a +16 agi gem, so it's getting nerfed by less than 20%- Only the AP value is getting nerfed. If AP makes up for 75% of the agi gem's value, then the AP value goes to 60% and the rest of the gem makes the total value at 85%.
Knowing Theo, he's probably right, so please explain.
Basically, you've got two results on a yellow attack for a hit:
Normal hit, and crit.
Agi and AP both effect these two results; AP has a larger increase in the damage (ergo why it's used in double DPS), and Agi will increase the damage at half the rate that AP does, but will also increase the frequency that crits occur.
Now, before 3.2, crit% and crit damage (hereafter referred to as critD) were the only things effected by resilience for rogues on direct damage. That means that anything that boosts crit (in terms of gear) is less valuable than something that boosts straight damage (i.e. Agi vs AP).
After 3.2, crit% and critD will still be effected by resilience. Normal hits will also be effected, though.
The reason that Agi is still inferior to AP, though, is that normal hits do not gain any benefit from Agi other than the AP gained.
By that same token, crits do not gain any more or less benefit from Agi vs AP than they did before the patch.
Agi:AP ratio is a 1:1 ratio for rogues.
Itemization is a 1:2 ratio, though.
With Agi and AP being valued the same for normal yellow hits just as before the patch, even though normal yellow hits are still getting their damage reduced by resilience, AP will still boost the damage by the same amount relative to Agi, as both will be effected by resilience.
Basically, think of this (completely hypothetical, simplified, and arbitrary) example:
Your normal yellow hits do 100 damage.
You have 40 itemization points. You can spend it on 40 AP or 20 Agi.
You choose 40 AP. Your damage increases by 40 on your normal hits, and is reduced by 20 because of resilience.
You choose 20 Agi. Your damage increases by 20 on your normal hits, and is reduced by 20 because of resilience.
See the difference? This is the only thing changing in the patch; nothing to do with crit is changing at all; your crit% and critD are both still reduced by resilience.
Now, if there were a cap that resilience placed on how much damage you could do, Agi would be infinitely more useful, but then again that's not how the system works.
Quote:
You have 40 itemization points. You can spend it on 40 AP or 20 Agi.
You choose 40 AP. Your damage increases by 40 on your normal hits, and is reduced by 20 because of resilience.
You choose 20 Agi. Your damage increases by 20 on your normal hits, and is reduced by 20 because of resilience.
You choose 40 AP. Your damage increases by 40 on your normal hits, and is reduced by 20 because of resilience.
You choose 20 Agi. Your damage increases by 20 on your normal hits, and is reduced by 20 because of resilience.
Okay, so say we have (again, using arbitrary numbers) a druid with 10% reduced chance to be crit, 20% reduced damage from crits, and 10% reduced damage to everything else.
Your yellow damage is again 100 on average.
You have 40 itemization points.
You choose 40 AP. You do 140 damage, and then it is reduced to 126 (-10%) because of the druid's resilience.
You choose 20 Agi. You do 120 damage and then it is reduced to 108 (-10%) because of the druid's resilience.
It seems like you are trying to say that resil reduces a flat amount of damage (in your case 20) from everything- something like one of those tanking trinkets that on use reduce damage taken by X.
Well, with my understanding of the mechanic, resil functions more like a permanent bone shield- Reduces percentage of damage taken. So the less damage you do on hits (not crits), you're having less damage reduced and the enemy benefits less, numbers wise and not percentage wise, from their resil.
Well, you can also take the added crit into effect.
Wowwiki says 83.33 agi points are needed to give a rogue at 80 1% crit.
So 20 agility is roughly .25% crit. .25% of the time, you do double (240) damage and it is reduced by 20% to 192.
Well it's pretty obvious at this point that you'd rather take the (126-108) 18 flat damage increase instead of taking the .25% chance of doing (192-126) 66 bonus damage (a flat .165 damage increase, meaning that if you take the crit gained from agi into account, you're still dealing (126-108-.165) 17.835 more damage overall than the crit.
I forgot to factor in the fact that rogues benefit on their crits from certain talents like Lethality, but the difference is so negligible it doesn't matter.
How about socketing crit vs AP?
Same variables.
I choose 40 AP. 126 damage done.
I choose 20 crit. 100 damage done.
Wowwiki says 45.91 crit rating is needed to give a player at 80 1% crit.
That's about .4% crit. Well, the amount of flat damage we gained from .25% crit was .165 damage, and .4% is slightly less than twice as much as .25%... So let's be generous, say it's twice as much and get .33 flat damage increase... Still the difference is obviously less than the flat damage increase from AP, thus proving your point.
I don't know what I was thinking. T___T
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 6:30pm by morgorg
Quote:
His understanding of yellow attacks in PvP is correct, he was just making a stupid assumption that Agi wasn't getting nerfed.
It's AP that's getting nerfed, but it's also Agi that's getting nerfed, because Agi gives rogues AP.
Ergo, AP is still better, because it gives a larger damage increase.
It's AP that's getting nerfed, but it's also Agi that's getting nerfed, because Agi gives rogues AP.
Ergo, AP is still better, because it gives a larger damage increase.
I meant his understanding of white hits. You don't lose white damage crits to misses.
Yeah, I forgot that resilience was a percent of the damage done, but it's still negligible compared to how much more AP increases damage than Agi.
Quote:
I meant his understanding of white hits. You don't lose white damage crits to misses.
That's good to know, thanks.
It's on a one-roll system. Say you have 25% crit, a 5% chance to miss, a 5% chance to be dodged and 25% chance to have glancing blows. You're behind the target so no parry.
1-5 Miss
6-10 Dodge
11-35 Glancing Blow
36-60 Crit
61-100 Normal hit
1-5 Miss
6-10 Dodge
11-35 Glancing Blow
36-60 Crit
61-100 Normal hit
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