As the title says, I want to switch from Frost to Blood tanking.
I have been running instances as a Frost Tank from ~72-80 (Nexus, AN, Old Kingdom, VH, DTK, Gundrak) and have liked it alot, easy snap aggro, good ST threat, it's pretty easy for me keep a group of guys on me regardless of DPS, but I may have to Death Grip or Dark Command sometimes if the DPS doesn't attack the right target, but that's no big deal and is part of being a good tank in my eyes.
The reason I want to switch is because my guild wants to use me as the MT for Heroics and 10 man raid content and I want to be the best tank I can be and I have heard and seen that Blood Tanks can be the best ST threat generators as well as have the most health and can make healing them easier due to talents and such. So the first order of business is the spec I made... but haven't seen anything close to it online and am wondering why.
Blood Tank Build
I made this build with the understanding that a tanks role is to produce the most amount of threat and survive while doing it. I got Corpse Explosion because I know Blood builds suffer in the AoE threat department and it seemed like a good tool to help alleviate that. Let me know why this would work or why it sucks compared to other builds, but this just seems like it should work well given a tanks role.
The second problem I have is the blood tank rotation. What is the best way to start a trash fight with multiple enemies (read more than 2)to get snap threat? DnD, IT, PS, Pest...RP Dump...BB, BB? Seems like the only way to get decent AoE threat... but that takes one full rotation plus some.
Anyway, thanks for the info ahead of time and I'm sorry for asking a question that I know has been asked 1000 times already.
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Switching from Frost to Blood TankingFollow
I have my blood tanking build in my sig. You might be interested in looking over that. It's not for everyone, but I love it. There are definitely some points in there that can be moved around, and I would not complain a bit. A lot of people have issues with my build. But my view is that if you're going to self heal, go all out. I usually have around 650hps in boss fights, that's about a free 1/3rd healer putting out 2.4k dps (10mans). Partial healing isn't for me. I like your build for that reason.
For your build, I think there are some things you can consider.
1)Blood gorged is great for threat. I highly recommend this talent.
2)Blood worms don't create threat and aren't out enough to heal you for much. They have bumped up the healing, but I personally don't think it's worth it. I have considered this talent, and when I dps blood and see them heal me, I do entertain that thought from time to time.
3) Spell deflection, most people believe this is not worth it. I agree. Some people swear by it. Used to have this, took it out later, have never noticed a difference. Low chance to proc some damage mitigation on a type of attack that isn't used that often.
4)Will of the necropolis. I'm so sad they put a 15sec cooldown on this. I tried it, it seemed more like a waste of 3 points than it ever actually helped. A lot of people do take this though. Watching my deaths and what killed me, I can probably count on one hand the amount of times this would actually save me. In DK Q&A, GC says they overnerfed it, so obviously it can't be that good if Blizzard feels they overnerfed it.
5)Scent of blood. I have it, I really like it. I always have a ton of RP for DC dumps, RS, AMS, IBF at any given time. If you are RP starved, I suggest this.
6)Corpse Explosion, with DnD and BB (now buffed), I never needed to use this. This point could go other places.
I don't like answering rotation questions because that is something every player needs to figure out for themselves. When it comes to hands on, it's best to let the man fish.
FWIW, My build is very similar to Satorri on Tankspot.com, mostly coincidence and it shouldn't persuade you to do as I say, but should prove I do more than spam mouse buttons on my talent tree and validate it later.
Just my humble opinions. =D
Edited for proper build in sig.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 12:12pm by Gikkers
For your build, I think there are some things you can consider.
1)Blood gorged is great for threat. I highly recommend this talent.
2)Blood worms don't create threat and aren't out enough to heal you for much. They have bumped up the healing, but I personally don't think it's worth it. I have considered this talent, and when I dps blood and see them heal me, I do entertain that thought from time to time.
3) Spell deflection, most people believe this is not worth it. I agree. Some people swear by it. Used to have this, took it out later, have never noticed a difference. Low chance to proc some damage mitigation on a type of attack that isn't used that often.
4)Will of the necropolis. I'm so sad they put a 15sec cooldown on this. I tried it, it seemed more like a waste of 3 points than it ever actually helped. A lot of people do take this though. Watching my deaths and what killed me, I can probably count on one hand the amount of times this would actually save me. In DK Q&A, GC says they overnerfed it, so obviously it can't be that good if Blizzard feels they overnerfed it.
5)Scent of blood. I have it, I really like it. I always have a ton of RP for DC dumps, RS, AMS, IBF at any given time. If you are RP starved, I suggest this.
6)Corpse Explosion, with DnD and BB (now buffed), I never needed to use this. This point could go other places.
I don't like answering rotation questions because that is something every player needs to figure out for themselves. When it comes to hands on, it's best to let the man fish.
FWIW, My build is very similar to Satorri on Tankspot.com, mostly coincidence and it shouldn't persuade you to do as I say, but should prove I do more than spam mouse buttons on my talent tree and validate it later.
Just my humble opinions. =D
Edited for proper build in sig.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 12:12pm by Gikkers
Thanks for the reply, I was really looking for someone who does Blood tank and could say why which talents were useful or useless as the case may be and this did help a bit, now I can make up a better spec... and probably end up cookie cutter, but it's cookie cutter because it works I guess.
Came up with a new spec, think I'll stick with it unless some tells me it really is just retarded... but I don't see that happening.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0xGqI0IsbMfosxhxZ0thh:ohpMmV
Thanks again for the insight.
Edited, Jul 21st 2009 4:59pm by Katchii
Edited, Jul 21st 2009 5:01pm by Katchii
Came up with a new spec, think I'll stick with it unless some tells me it really is just retarded... but I don't see that happening.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0xGqI0IsbMfosxhxZ0thh:ohpMmV
Thanks again for the insight.
Edited, Jul 21st 2009 4:59pm by Katchii
Edited, Jul 21st 2009 5:01pm by Katchii
You really want bladed armor. Far more TPS than sudden doom. Sudden doom is cool, but not anything to write home about, the tps on this ability is negligible.
Edited for proper build in sig.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 11:55am by Gikkers
Edited for proper build in sig.
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 11:55am by Gikkers
This is the build I use for Blood Tanking.
This sucker provides insane threat for ST tanking, and is moderately good for AoE. So long as you have a disease on your target, you've got Death Strike healing for you.
Here is my initial rotation against a pack of elite mobs. DnD to grab initial threat, IT, PS, Pest. You know have everything pissed off at you. Chances are pretty good you've got close to 50% avoidance, So by now you have a Rune Strike ready. I use it on the mob with the least threat. Once they refill, try HS HS DS DS, with Rune Strikes when you get it. When I do the Heart Strike's though, I'm constantly tabbing so I can make the most of it.
I really really love this build. This build has turned total cluster effs into situations of epic win.
Rotation however, is something you'll have to work with. Somehow, this works well for me. I take pride in my tanking, I hate it when there's a wipe, and people that die when I'm tanking do something insanely stupid to pull it off. If you have to, sub out a Heart Strike with a Pestilence. The way this baby works, after the initial rotation, you shouldn't have to ever use IT+PS again in a fight.
So long as you have a sharp eye and some solid AoE support, you should do fine. Work with it though a little.
You may also ask "Why did you skip over Rune Tap and Improved Blood Presence"? I will tell you why. The health bonus' I get from the Death Strikes and my worms is plenty to keep me alive. I have solo'd lots of nasty elites without both, for a period I wondered how I would life without the extra Oh S*** button. You got one. If things get nasty, and by nasty I mean you have a not so great healer, there's always health potions. For some odd reason though, I only need these when a Priest is healing, can't quite figure that one out. Second, aside from Health Potions, you also have the old reliable "Raise Dead+Dark Pact" combo, that restores more than Rune Tap ever could. Third, Vampiric Blood. This thing can save your butt in tough fights, works wonders when used with a glyphed Blood Tap.
The Self-Healing of Blood, simply put, is awesome. But you have to remember though, unless you're off soloing big bad dudes, it's not your concern. All the above ways I wrote down to save your butt in a fight won't help you in the least bit against the likes of Patchwork or an overcharged Emalon. Just give it a whirl, and let me know how it turns out.
This sucker provides insane threat for ST tanking, and is moderately good for AoE. So long as you have a disease on your target, you've got Death Strike healing for you.
Here is my initial rotation against a pack of elite mobs. DnD to grab initial threat, IT, PS, Pest. You know have everything pissed off at you. Chances are pretty good you've got close to 50% avoidance, So by now you have a Rune Strike ready. I use it on the mob with the least threat. Once they refill, try HS HS DS DS, with Rune Strikes when you get it. When I do the Heart Strike's though, I'm constantly tabbing so I can make the most of it.
I really really love this build. This build has turned total cluster effs into situations of epic win.
Rotation however, is something you'll have to work with. Somehow, this works well for me. I take pride in my tanking, I hate it when there's a wipe, and people that die when I'm tanking do something insanely stupid to pull it off. If you have to, sub out a Heart Strike with a Pestilence. The way this baby works, after the initial rotation, you shouldn't have to ever use IT+PS again in a fight.
So long as you have a sharp eye and some solid AoE support, you should do fine. Work with it though a little.
You may also ask "Why did you skip over Rune Tap and Improved Blood Presence"? I will tell you why. The health bonus' I get from the Death Strikes and my worms is plenty to keep me alive. I have solo'd lots of nasty elites without both, for a period I wondered how I would life without the extra Oh S*** button. You got one. If things get nasty, and by nasty I mean you have a not so great healer, there's always health potions. For some odd reason though, I only need these when a Priest is healing, can't quite figure that one out. Second, aside from Health Potions, you also have the old reliable "Raise Dead+Dark Pact" combo, that restores more than Rune Tap ever could. Third, Vampiric Blood. This thing can save your butt in tough fights, works wonders when used with a glyphed Blood Tap.
The Self-Healing of Blood, simply put, is awesome. But you have to remember though, unless you're off soloing big bad dudes, it's not your concern. All the above ways I wrote down to save your butt in a fight won't help you in the least bit against the likes of Patchwork or an overcharged Emalon. Just give it a whirl, and let me know how it turns out.
"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible c*** : me."
I do Blood on my DK, see sig, and I like it so far. I was Frost for awhile, then decided to try the others. I went to Blood maybe a month or two ago and still haven't gotten around to Unholy.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGoIhIosRbssx0xZ0gu0z:hipVM0
That's the spec I use. I made it to get the most healing I could while still having some other utilities.
IT+IRT, MoB, Bloodworms, ImBP and GoRT are all awesome in my opinion. While I lack some in AoE just being Blood, I've found that overall I like it more, for a few reasons.
1. Heroics. Sometimes I don't even need a healer. Healer dies at 50%, we still down the boss because I can live on my own.
2. Raids. The self healing is nice, and with some fancy foot work using DnD, IT+PS and BB, AoE can be handled well enough. On raid bosses Bloodworms don't have much of any difference, ImBP is along the same lines, but for Heroic's and other things they are great.
3. Time wasting. Want to farm Zul'Gurub for those rare mounts? Want to do random, miscellaneous old world content? TBC Heroic's, maybe some Karazhan? Nothing beats Blood. I very easily do the tiger and raptor bosses on my own every week for 2 or 3 weeks so far, and I can tell it would just be much harder as Frost.
4. Solo. A rare, elite mob, a group quest, anything you do on your own, Blood tanking will be able to solo it most likely.
As much as I love Frost, Blood is just so convenient.
For rotations, on a group I will do much the same thing. Only difference with mine is I rely on that Heroism badge sigil (You know, Icy Touch and you get +54 or something defense rating for 30 seconds) to be crit immune. So I start with IT+PS, Pest, DnD. For groups that push high DPS, I will IT, DnD, PS, Pest. After those, BB, and going through and hitting with DS/RS.
Single target goes IT+PS, DS, HS, HS. Then, next time I go DS, DS, HS, HS. On the third go 'round though, I must use IT again, for the buff, so might as well refresh PS as well. Pestilence used at the best time, replacing a HS to keep diseases up when my buff is not going to wear off soon.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGoIhIosRbssx0xZ0gu0z:hipVM0
That's the spec I use. I made it to get the most healing I could while still having some other utilities.
IT+IRT, MoB, Bloodworms, ImBP and GoRT are all awesome in my opinion. While I lack some in AoE just being Blood, I've found that overall I like it more, for a few reasons.
1. Heroics. Sometimes I don't even need a healer. Healer dies at 50%, we still down the boss because I can live on my own.
2. Raids. The self healing is nice, and with some fancy foot work using DnD, IT+PS and BB, AoE can be handled well enough. On raid bosses Bloodworms don't have much of any difference, ImBP is along the same lines, but for Heroic's and other things they are great.
3. Time wasting. Want to farm Zul'Gurub for those rare mounts? Want to do random, miscellaneous old world content? TBC Heroic's, maybe some Karazhan? Nothing beats Blood. I very easily do the tiger and raptor bosses on my own every week for 2 or 3 weeks so far, and I can tell it would just be much harder as Frost.
4. Solo. A rare, elite mob, a group quest, anything you do on your own, Blood tanking will be able to solo it most likely.
As much as I love Frost, Blood is just so convenient.
For rotations, on a group I will do much the same thing. Only difference with mine is I rely on that Heroism badge sigil (You know, Icy Touch and you get +54 or something defense rating for 30 seconds) to be crit immune. So I start with IT+PS, Pest, DnD. For groups that push high DPS, I will IT, DnD, PS, Pest. After those, BB, and going through and hitting with DS/RS.
Single target goes IT+PS, DS, HS, HS. Then, next time I go DS, DS, HS, HS. On the third go 'round though, I must use IT again, for the buff, so might as well refresh PS as well. Pestilence used at the best time, replacing a HS to keep diseases up when my buff is not going to wear off soon.
BillyRayValentine wrote:
If your build works great for you, cool, nothing wrong with it. But this statement can be a bit misleading. Blood replaces a lot of mitigation with self healing, and mitigation is our concern. If you feel you heal yourself enough, then there is no problem. But that statement is not 100% accurate.
Billy Ray Valentine wrote:
Again, not 100% accurate. They may not save YOU. But I've saved myself many many times with all these abilities on a wide variety of fights.
Also a lot of people like to use Patchwerk and tank and spanks as standards. I think that's a good way to figure out dps, but it's terrible for tanking. Tanks need to be ready when things go wrong, not when everything is going right. 1) Most fights are not tank and spanks, 2) Tank and spanks are the easiest encounters for tanks. When healers are healing the raid, you have to save yourself sometimes. There is little reason to heal yourself on Patch. There is no AoE damage to the dps. All healers are focusing on you. Now Gluth and Loatheb are better bench marks (as well as Freya, Hodir, etc.). I take every decimate because I can fill myself up instantly. When we can heal in Loatheb, I can pop up to max while healers deal with the raid. A few HoTs are all I need to be tended to.
I have been considering blood worms, but lack of control is what annoys me on top of the low % they actually come out. Blood worms are not going to be out when you need them on Gluth and Loatheb. Rune tap is controllable.
Again, if it works for you, cool. But I like the discussion. =D
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 12:35pm by Gikkers
Quote:
But you have to remember though, unless you're off soloing big bad dudes, it's not your concern
If your build works great for you, cool, nothing wrong with it. But this statement can be a bit misleading. Blood replaces a lot of mitigation with self healing, and mitigation is our concern. If you feel you heal yourself enough, then there is no problem. But that statement is not 100% accurate.
Billy Ray Valentine wrote:
Quote:
All the above ways I wrote down to save your butt in a fight won't help you in the least bit against the likes of Patchwork or an overcharged Emalon.
Again, not 100% accurate. They may not save YOU. But I've saved myself many many times with all these abilities on a wide variety of fights.
Also a lot of people like to use Patchwerk and tank and spanks as standards. I think that's a good way to figure out dps, but it's terrible for tanking. Tanks need to be ready when things go wrong, not when everything is going right. 1) Most fights are not tank and spanks, 2) Tank and spanks are the easiest encounters for tanks. When healers are healing the raid, you have to save yourself sometimes. There is little reason to heal yourself on Patch. There is no AoE damage to the dps. All healers are focusing on you. Now Gluth and Loatheb are better bench marks (as well as Freya, Hodir, etc.). I take every decimate because I can fill myself up instantly. When we can heal in Loatheb, I can pop up to max while healers deal with the raid. A few HoTs are all I need to be tended to.
I have been considering blood worms, but lack of control is what annoys me on top of the low % they actually come out. Blood worms are not going to be out when you need them on Gluth and Loatheb. Rune tap is controllable.
Again, if it works for you, cool. But I like the discussion. =D
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 12:35pm by Gikkers
I just realized I have the wrong spec in my signuture. IGNORE VENDETTA. I do not have that talent, nor should anyone for tanking. I'll be correcting sig soon.
Edited: proper build now!
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 11:55am by Gikkers
Edited: proper build now!
Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 11:55am by Gikkers
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGqI0IobMbosxhxZ0thhz:ohpMmV
How about this build? Took out Bloody Vengeance and Sudden Doom and got Bladed armor and Corpse explosion instead.. since after I filled out Bladed armor I only had one point left and I felt the benefits from corpse explosion would be more than the benefits from 1 point in Bloody Vengeance.
I didn't get a chance to spec yesterday... started the Sons of Hodir questline....which takes forever, so I was a little distracted.
Anyway, I'll try and spec into it today and see how I do, if I get an invite to takn something.
How about this build? Took out Bloody Vengeance and Sudden Doom and got Bladed armor and Corpse explosion instead.. since after I filled out Bladed armor I only had one point left and I felt the benefits from corpse explosion would be more than the benefits from 1 point in Bloody Vengeance.
I didn't get a chance to spec yesterday... started the Sons of Hodir questline....which takes forever, so I was a little distracted.
Anyway, I'll try and spec into it today and see how I do, if I get an invite to takn something.
Obviously I use blood for tanking as well and I've used it on everything from soloing daily quests to tanking on Yogg-Saron. I see very few people take spell deflection, but I know on fights like in OS or Naxx (KT) it really cuts down on the magic damage taken, which is something that DK tanks can do that other tanks WISH they could do.
I also don't take improved blood presence, because the tiny amount of healing that it will do in frost presence is just not worth spending points on. I DO use sudden doom, because heart strike is still the core and most common strike that I use, and the death coil is free threat for a small 3 points (I thought it was good with 5 points). I also never have had aoe threat issues as blood, I will typically use blood boil (without diseases) once for snap aggro, then get diseases up and spread them, then blood boil a bunch. Between that and death and decay, I rarely ever lose a single mob, even when aoe begins right away (eg. kologarn).
The current version of scent of blood is better, but I've never had RP problems while tanking, and so I've never really needed it.
I also don't take improved blood presence, because the tiny amount of healing that it will do in frost presence is just not worth spending points on. I DO use sudden doom, because heart strike is still the core and most common strike that I use, and the death coil is free threat for a small 3 points (I thought it was good with 5 points). I also never have had aoe threat issues as blood, I will typically use blood boil (without diseases) once for snap aggro, then get diseases up and spread them, then blood boil a bunch. Between that and death and decay, I rarely ever lose a single mob, even when aoe begins right away (eg. kologarn).
The current version of scent of blood is better, but I've never had RP problems while tanking, and so I've never really needed it.
So I finally respecced, and this is what I decided to go with.
Armory Link
I left out Bloody Vengeance because my crit rating is abismal anyway, got Bladed Armor AND Sudden Doom, Scent of Blood so I can spam Rune Strike without worrying about Runic Power along with Death Coil for the times I need/ want to use a ranged attack.
I like having Improved Icy Touch because slower enemies=less incoming damage=less enemy parry chance=...less incoming damage...yeah
I had 1 leftover point that I put into Ravenous Dead in teh Unholy tree for the 1% Strength increase, just seemed like an easy way to increase parry chance along with DPS and therefore TPS.
I linked my Armory so that you could see my gear if you wanted to, I left my tank gear on and am in Frost Presence... I think. I am just really starting to put together a serious tank set, but I think I am doing pretty good so far, my defense is close, but my expertise rating and hit rating are low...I know...but any help or advice for what to get sooner than later besides enchants (I know I need them, I'm workin on it along with Rep for Hodir, Wyrmrest Accord and Kirin Tor) like a quest item I may have overlooked or something.
Any advice is appreciated and encouraged, my guild will be running heroics soon enough and I just want to be good enough to run those with them as a tank, since while running those, gearing up for 10 man raids will come naturally. Thanks again.
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 11:31am by Katchii
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 1:58pm by Katchii
Armory Link
I left out Bloody Vengeance because my crit rating is abismal anyway, got Bladed Armor AND Sudden Doom, Scent of Blood so I can spam Rune Strike without worrying about Runic Power along with Death Coil for the times I need/ want to use a ranged attack.
I like having Improved Icy Touch because slower enemies=less incoming damage=less enemy parry chance=...less incoming damage...yeah
I had 1 leftover point that I put into Ravenous Dead in teh Unholy tree for the 1% Strength increase, just seemed like an easy way to increase parry chance along with DPS and therefore TPS.
I linked my Armory so that you could see my gear if you wanted to, I left my tank gear on and am in Frost Presence... I think. I am just really starting to put together a serious tank set, but I think I am doing pretty good so far, my defense is close, but my expertise rating and hit rating are low...I know...but any help or advice for what to get sooner than later besides enchants (I know I need them, I'm workin on it along with Rep for Hodir, Wyrmrest Accord and Kirin Tor) like a quest item I may have overlooked or something.
Any advice is appreciated and encouraged, my guild will be running heroics soon enough and I just want to be good enough to run those with them as a tank, since while running those, gearing up for 10 man raids will come naturally. Thanks again.
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 11:31am by Katchii
Edited, Jul 23rd 2009 1:58pm by Katchii
If you had an extra point why not fill out epidemic? The extra time could mean a better rotation which is more threat.
Are you just doing 5-mans with that, or are you raiding? If you're raiding with a feral druid, prot warrior (or warrior that uses thunderclap), prot paladin, or dps DK that specs into it, improved icy touch is kinda a waste. If you have no other way to get the debuff, I still think it's meh at best.
I still don't understand why you don't have spell deflection, unless you're only planning on doing bosses that are 100% pure physical damage. It really does make a difference. Same goes with Will of the Necropolis, which can save your life if things are hitting hard.
Lastly, improved blood presence is debatable as a dps talent, but near worthless as a tank. The healing is not worth much, and there are far better places to put those points.
I see you're working on sons of hodir, that's good, continue to do that every day. You also might want to throw some enchants on your gear. No, not the most expensive versions, but honestly enchants have more impact when you have a lack of gear than when you have the best gear in the game. Get the cheap stuff like health to chest, a little stam to bracer, probably icewalker to boots (super cheap), get a belt buckle... stuff like that. Doing those little things at this stage in your gear will have a significant impact on what you can and can't tank.
Are you just doing 5-mans with that, or are you raiding? If you're raiding with a feral druid, prot warrior (or warrior that uses thunderclap), prot paladin, or dps DK that specs into it, improved icy touch is kinda a waste. If you have no other way to get the debuff, I still think it's meh at best.
I still don't understand why you don't have spell deflection, unless you're only planning on doing bosses that are 100% pure physical damage. It really does make a difference. Same goes with Will of the Necropolis, which can save your life if things are hitting hard.
Lastly, improved blood presence is debatable as a dps talent, but near worthless as a tank. The healing is not worth much, and there are far better places to put those points.
I see you're working on sons of hodir, that's good, continue to do that every day. You also might want to throw some enchants on your gear. No, not the most expensive versions, but honestly enchants have more impact when you have a lack of gear than when you have the best gear in the game. Get the cheap stuff like health to chest, a little stam to bracer, probably icewalker to boots (super cheap), get a belt buckle... stuff like that. Doing those little things at this stage in your gear will have a significant impact on what you can and can't tank.
The problem with spell deflect is that it requires direct damage. Since most magic in raids is AoE, this talent is a waste 99% of the time. In a single fight, IBP will (effectively) heal you for more than this talent will mitigate, even more so over the course of a raid. And IBP will be only 2 points used (always), instead of 3 being wasted most of the time. That's why most people skip this.
Will of the Necropolis vs IBP is something I can understand. I can go more into the math, but I'll try to keep this quick. Last raid, IBP was healing me for 80hps (10man ulduar). In a 7 minute fight that's 33,600. I'm fair enough to say some of that is probably overhealing. WotN saves you for 15% of damage. In my 10man Ulda (which hits a LOT harder than Naxx10 or heroics) I see bursts of 22k, they probably happen less often than 30secs. That means, if it happens every 30secs for 22k, damage mitigated is 46,200, So the talents come up about even until you add a per point math. 2 IBP talent points do 33,600 (16,800per talent point), 3 WotN talent points doing 46,200 (15,400per talent point). Take IBP and get an extra talent point.
The real problem is that usually these spikes do not happen once every 15seconds (WotN CD) or even as regularly as 30secs in my example. In Ulduar, I usually see a quick volley of hits, but it will only work on one of the hits. So you may take 30,000 damage, but when broken into several hits, then you aren't gettin 15% of that 30k. If you take one big crunch, like 25,000, WotN will save you for 3750. But what if you get 3 hits for 10k each? Now it's 1500 because only one of the hits will be absorbed. This doesn't happen every 15secs. If you are in Naxx10 or heroics, you won't be taking hits that big either. So WotN isn't a great talent at all. Since the 15sec nerf, this is really not much more than a placebo. 3points is too steep imo. If they put it down to 1 talent point, I would probably take this.
In my raids, I review my information, and never has WotN had the potential to out perform IBP. Mabye in one particular situation, but very rarely would it save me from dying.
Another interesting thing is as your gear improves, and you have better armor and dps, WotN will mitigate less (less damage taken) and IBP will start to heal more (higher dps).
Now this post is not a be all end all of WotNSUX. If people want it, go for it. But IBP is a very valid tanking talent (and not a necessity). One or the other to be taken should not confuse anyone.
If I have overlooked something, let me know, I don't want people taking this as a bible by any means. Those numbers are not exact. Those are examples that I have noticed from my personal data.
Will of the Necropolis vs IBP is something I can understand. I can go more into the math, but I'll try to keep this quick. Last raid, IBP was healing me for 80hps (10man ulduar). In a 7 minute fight that's 33,600. I'm fair enough to say some of that is probably overhealing. WotN saves you for 15% of damage. In my 10man Ulda (which hits a LOT harder than Naxx10 or heroics) I see bursts of 22k, they probably happen less often than 30secs. That means, if it happens every 30secs for 22k, damage mitigated is 46,200, So the talents come up about even until you add a per point math. 2 IBP talent points do 33,600 (16,800per talent point), 3 WotN talent points doing 46,200 (15,400per talent point). Take IBP and get an extra talent point.
The real problem is that usually these spikes do not happen once every 15seconds (WotN CD) or even as regularly as 30secs in my example. In Ulduar, I usually see a quick volley of hits, but it will only work on one of the hits. So you may take 30,000 damage, but when broken into several hits, then you aren't gettin 15% of that 30k. If you take one big crunch, like 25,000, WotN will save you for 3750. But what if you get 3 hits for 10k each? Now it's 1500 because only one of the hits will be absorbed. This doesn't happen every 15secs. If you are in Naxx10 or heroics, you won't be taking hits that big either. So WotN isn't a great talent at all. Since the 15sec nerf, this is really not much more than a placebo. 3points is too steep imo. If they put it down to 1 talent point, I would probably take this.
In my raids, I review my information, and never has WotN had the potential to out perform IBP. Mabye in one particular situation, but very rarely would it save me from dying.
Another interesting thing is as your gear improves, and you have better armor and dps, WotN will mitigate less (less damage taken) and IBP will start to heal more (higher dps).
Now this post is not a be all end all of WotNSUX. If people want it, go for it. But IBP is a very valid tanking talent (and not a necessity). One or the other to be taken should not confuse anyone.
If I have overlooked something, let me know, I don't want people taking this as a bible by any means. Those numbers are not exact. Those are examples that I have noticed from my personal data.
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When we can heal in Loatheb, I can pop up to max while healers deal with the raid. A few HoTs are all I need to be tended to.
Great post Gikkers, but I'd just like to pick out that little bit - any healer using a HoT on Loatheb (with the exception of perhaps a druid) isn't doing his job well.
I agree with you on the Spell Deflection bit, as I've posted in the other tanking topic.
Alright, I decided to change my spec to this testing out some of the stuff ya'll like in your tanking specs (and also test the disease glyph over the AMS one). Last night I got a chance to use it in BT, and honestly I had TOO MUCH RP. It was all I could do to keep from sitting at 100 RP the entire time... however I guess if I had to have a problem, having too much is better than having too little.
I still don't know if it's an idea raid tanking spec because I'm giving up a TON of mitigation for extra self healing, but it would be a very nice spec for doing 5-mans and soloing, that's for sure.
I still don't know if it's an idea raid tanking spec because I'm giving up a TON of mitigation for extra self healing, but it would be a very nice spec for doing 5-mans and soloing, that's for sure.
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I still don't know if it's an idea raid tanking spec because I'm giving up a TON of mitigation for extra self healing
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because I'm giving up a TON of mitigation
Wait, what? Help me out here, I don't see the ton of mitigation you're giving up. You can't be solely talking about Will of the Necropolis? You seem to give up threat for self-healing, not mitigation. If you could hold aggro with that spec, it'd be fine for raids, imo.
While we're on it, I've got another question to add to the list. As a blood tank, would one need to pick up Death Rune Mastery? As DPS it seems an obvious talent to grab because DS damage = HS damage and DS = 2 runes while HS = 1 rune. I'm just not sure whether you'd need it as blood - as long as you can hold aggro you wouldn't need the extra death strikes, would you?
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Alright, I decided to change my spec to this testing out some of the stuff ya'll like in your tanking specs (and also test the disease glyph over the AMS one). Last night I got a chance to use it in BT, and honestly I had TOO MUCH RP. It was all I could do to keep from sitting at 100 RP the entire time... however I guess if I had to have a problem, having too much is better than having too little.
I still don't know if it's an idea raid tanking spec because I'm giving up a TON of mitigation for extra self healing, but it would be a very nice spec for doing 5-mans and soloing, that's for sure.
I still don't know if it's an idea raid tanking spec because I'm giving up a TON of mitigation for extra self healing, but it would be a very nice spec for doing 5-mans and soloing, that's for sure.
I agree with SoB. I am full most of the time. But with out it, it seemed like I was out of it when I needed it. So if I'm going to have a problem, I'd rather have too much. For nothing else your DS will be stronger more often.
Like I said, I use it in my raids and I love it. Let us know how it turns out for you, not only are you unbiased, but you are leaning away from it, so good to get a counter view to what may be a biased one (me!).
From an earlier discussion: I also prefer Subversion over SD b/c the 9% crit on HS is really nice, especially on cleaves. But I figure they are 1 for 1 on tps over all.
I like Death Rune Mastery because I'll be using Death Strikes a lot in my rotations anyway, which will then give me death runes for use as blood boils, pestilence, DnD when my blood runes might be on cooldown, icy touch when frost are on cooldown, plague strike for when uholy are on cooldown.... in short, having that talent just gives the rotations much more versatility and variability for when things don't go exactly the way you planned.... which is like every trash pull in a PuG'd group/ raid.
Mozared wrote:
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I still don't know if it's an idea raid tanking spec because I'm giving up a TON of mitigation for extra self healing
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because I'm giving up a TON of mitigation
Wait, what? Help me out here, I don't see the ton of mitigation you're giving up. You can't be solely talking about Will of the Necropolis? You seem to give up threat for self-healing, not mitigation. If you could hold aggro with that spec, it'd be fine for raids, imo.
While we're on it, I've got another question to add to the list. As a blood tank, would one need to pick up Death Rune Mastery? As DPS it seems an obvious talent to grab because DS damage = HS damage and DS = 2 runes while HS = 1 rune. I'm just not sure whether you'd need it as blood - as long as you can hold aggro you wouldn't need the extra death strikes, would you?
No I was talking in general Yes WotN and spell deflection are the two mitigation talents in blood, but I was also comparing it to say frost/unholy which have a lot more mitigation down the tree and it seemed that I was doing something that is nothing but threat generation and self healing... well I guess you could look at the self healing as a mitigation alternative, healing myself where the mitigation talents would reduce my damage, reducing the amount healers do either way. I guess I can look at it that way.
As for the death rune mastery, the extra threat of doing lots of heart strikes does help, especially when you have dps doing 7-8k dps on a regular basis and 13-15k (we run 4-5 mages pulling this too) on hodir hard mode, I need all the threat I can get. Threat was the main reason I went blood for tanking in the first place. In addition, I also want my tanking rotation to be really similar to my dps one so that it is a comfortable switch, since I switch between the two all the time.
I could see your point with subversion, and if I were going to give anything up for it, I'd give the bloodworms up for it but if I don't need the threat from the extra crit from subversion, like... if it didn't matter either way, bloodworms would end up better just because of the extra self healing. So I'm gonna stick with this spec until I start losing aggro, then I might drop the worms for subversion.
Edited, Jul 27th 2009 1:32pm by Dilbrt
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I could see your point with subversion, and if I were going to give anything up for it, I'd give the bloodworms up for it but if I don't need the threat from the extra crit from subversion, like... if it didn't matter either way, bloodworms would end up better just because of the extra self healing. So I'm gonna stick with this spec until I start losing aggro, then I might drop the worms for subversion.
I always peek over the fence to blood worms, but with out control, I KNOW they are going to be subject to Murphy's law. Trash and full life they will always be out, when I need them, no where to be found. I wish they produced threat.
That's actually a really interesting idea. I wish they'd grant threat if you were in frost presence. Would be a blizzard-like change, make the talent more valuable for tanks and not just leveling and fairly interesting as well.
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