Hey Warriors, here is the story. Today after I completed the daily heroic in UP, me and most of the group that stayed went on to do Heroic CoS. A problem that I had encountered that I have had a few healers, not all, mention that I get hit pretty hard.. harder than most tanks I suppose. So, now that I am freaked out about whether or not I am tank-able for heroics and raids, I wanted to hear all your opinions first, especially from you experienced Warrior tanks.
My armory is Ghafgarian
Quick Facts:
Health: 27.3k
Defense: 553
Dodge: 21%
Parry: 17%
Block: 13%
Armor: 23k (60% physical damage reduction)
Any and all replies would be helpful including some tips to increase my mitigation. I tend to use all cooldowns I have available throughout every instance save some important ones such as shield wall and last stand. Thanks!
Edited, Jul 12th 2009 3:50pm by EpicUnderwear
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So... am I getting hit too hard?Follow
Make sure the mobs are in front of you - can't dodge or parry if they are behind you. Thunderclap should always be up, and Shield Block on CD. Other than that, gear looks fine for heroics. Don't forget to use your stuns (Shockwave, Concussion Blow) when available. Also, stagger Shield Block with Shockwave to make the first 15 seconds of a pull easy for a healer.
Some of the mobs in UP just hit hard though -- it can be tough on a healer.
Some of the mobs in UP just hit hard though -- it can be tough on a healer.
#3REDACTED,
Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 4:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Your gear is not good for UP , thats all.
geotank wrote:
Your gear is not good for UP , thats all.
His gear is more than fine for UP, or any heroic.
Just to clarify some things. Culling of Stratholme is the instance where healers had a problem healing me, not Utgarde's Pinnacle.
Okay, thats where I think things started to go wrong. In all the craziness that is CoS, rushing to each and every pull it is a possibility that I was not positioned right for a lot of those fights. (I ran and completed H CoS for the second time yesterday, my first time I missed the timed run by less then a minute... Arthas is so damn slow, and the second time I kept dieing.) The dragonkin in the town hall apparently were hitting me for a little bit over 5k, and well.... with 4 of them beating on me at once, I can see that as a problem.
I run UP with my eyes closed lol. That instance is so easy. :P
Edited, Jul 13th 2009 8:53am by EpicUnderwear
Quote:
Make sure the mobs are in front of you - can't dodge or parry if they are behind you.
Okay, thats where I think things started to go wrong. In all the craziness that is CoS, rushing to each and every pull it is a possibility that I was not positioned right for a lot of those fights. (I ran and completed H CoS for the second time yesterday, my first time I missed the timed run by less then a minute... Arthas is so damn slow, and the second time I kept dieing.) The dragonkin in the town hall apparently were hitting me for a little bit over 5k, and well.... with 4 of them beating on me at once, I can see that as a problem.
Quote:
Your gear is not good for UP , thats all.
I run UP with my eyes closed lol. That instance is so easy. :P
Edited, Jul 13th 2009 8:53am by EpicUnderwear
Quote:
Your gear is not good for UP , thats all.
This guy has no idea what he's talking about. You're more than geared enough to run any heroic. And probably could tank Naxxaramas 10 and 25 man depending on the group.
And you say you're getting hit for 5k? Yeah that's pretty normal, welcome to heroics. Mobs hit hard.
Epicunderwear wrote:
In all the craziness that is CoS, rushing to each and every pull it is a possibility that I was not positioned right for a lot of those fights.
Shockwave requires "good" positioning to be effective anyway -- definitely make sure you're doing it. As long as you have strong DPS, all a timed run requires is moving quickly between pulls. A lot of groups get in trouble because they're trying to rush and pull too much at once (read: you don't have to pull the whole gauntlet at once).
Kill order is important for CoS. Casters need to go down first as they're squishy and their attacks aren't mitigated by armor. Don't forget to Spell Reflect back at them, and interrupt on CD.
Geotank wrote:
Your gear is not good for UP , thats all.
You are absolutely retarded. I main tanked and cleared all heroic content with the exception of Sarth+3D with less than he's got, so he's very capable of tanking any and all heroics.
OP, you're doing fine. If anything, just work on positioning and not giving your back to mobs. That or you probably had some crappy healers. It happens to all of us from time to time.
By the way, one of the spider mobs in CoS puts a poison on you that does 15% of your health per tick. Was it perhaps on these pulls that you took so much damage? I remember that thing being able to rock me initially if it didn't get cleansed, in addition to all the other damage.
Edited, Jul 13th 2009 12:43pm by FletusSanguine
Quote:
By the way, one of the spider mobs in CoS puts a poison on you that does 15% of your health per tick. Was it perhaps on these pulls that you took so much damage?
Nope, it was the dragonkin inside the town hall after you get done clearing the waves. I didn't even know about the spider dot, I'll have to watch out for that one from now on. I assume that it has always been cleansed, because I never ran into that issue... yet lol. I think it just pretty much boils down to my positioning. I have ran at least 10 heroics and a 25 man raid since that CoS run, and have had no trouble at all. I had a discussion with the healer after that particular CoS run, and it pretty much went like..
"I heal 25 mans every week, my guild tanks never get hit that hard." etc etc etc "The dps was low, maybe I had to over heal you, thats why my mana kept running out so fast."
I am not one to call someone out for being a bad player, because I know I am no pro. In fact, if I do happen to pug a bad player, I always just suck it up and do my best to finish the instance anyway, no matter what, to at least give the player more dungeon experience. So, when this healer said this to me, I just felt like he was trying to place blame on everyone but himself, but didn't want to get into an argument or nothing about it. I am glad I didn't though, because I am almost positive, that it was indeed, just poor positioning. It actually happend again during a Gundrak run, and I immediately started paying attention to where I was standing opposed to the mobs, and it was like day and night difference.
Quote:
And you say you're getting hit for 5k? Yeah that's pretty normal, welcome to heroics. Mobs hit hard.
Yeah, of course. To be honest, I wouldn't be able to tell you what normal incoming damage is or not, I look up online what requirements I need to tank, I meet the requirements, I run dungeons. I knew I met the requirements, yet somehow I was still giving healers a difficult time healing me. That is why I come to this forum, to get help from Warriors who have been there, and done it already. Which by the way, I want to thank all of you for your input, the whole poor positioning thing was a bonehead mistake, and I should have realized right away through common sense.
Quote:
Kill order is important for CoS.
I pug all of my heroics, nobody listens to kill order sadly. I shouldn't say nobody, but you will always have that special snowflake dps who is too good for kill orders. I know it might have been a bad move, but I even picked up a Glyph of Cleaving for the added cleave target, just so I could hold onto as many targets as I could while tanking the primary targets because of dps who pull that crap on me.
Sorry, made a triple post, my post wasn't showing up at first for some strange reason.
Edited, Jul 13th 2009 9:35pm by EpicUnderwear
Edited, Jul 13th 2009 9:35pm by EpicUnderwear
:(
Edited, Jul 13th 2009 9:35pm by EpicUnderwear
Edited, Jul 13th 2009 9:35pm by EpicUnderwear
Scholar
28 posts
Yeah, see, if you run with decent dps, mobs die more quickly, healer has to heal you less. Blame is always projected from one role to another.
#14REDACTED,
Posted: Jul 15 2009 at 6:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I was doing a heroic and the healer complained because i was hitting so hard, i was pulling aggro from the tank. Didnt understand that at all. Hit less?
The difference in your two complaints is that in his case, it seemed like his healer was stupid. He's more than geared for heroics, so it sounds like he just didn't have that great of a healer. It happens sometimes.
In your case, the complaints resulted from the fact that you're an idiot. If you pull threat, it's your fault. The tank may well have been an idiot as well, but if you consistently pull threat just stop attacking. The healer yelled at you for a reason. If you're taking damage as a DPS that you don't NEED to be tanking, you're doing it wrong.
In your case, the complaints resulted from the fact that you're an idiot. If you pull threat, it's your fault. The tank may well have been an idiot as well, but if you consistently pull threat just stop attacking. The healer yelled at you for a reason. If you're taking damage as a DPS that you don't NEED to be tanking, you're doing it wrong.
senoralec wrote:
I was doing a heroic and the healer complained because i was hitting so hard, i was pulling aggro from the tank. Didnt understand that at all. Hit less?
Bonus points for senoralec!
Hit less or die. Your call. Or you could dump threat, but I'm assuming you're a DPS Warrior?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
You're not getting hit too hard. Warrior damage mitigation is awesome and as long as you have a comfortable amount of HP and your def is capped, There shouldn't be an issue. The problem is idiot healers. I heal and tank. When I heal, I constantly keep heals on the tank. PoM and renew are constantly in effect on the tank. Most healers will wait for you to lose half your life before they even start healing. Good healers are incredibly hard to find. Back in BC, I healed tanks wearing nothing but greens through heroics several times.
And as far as tanking goes, I gave up. To many DK's using death and decay and death grip make my and the healers job way too difficult. And you just can't seem to find a group without at least 1 ******* DK in it. And in the end it ends up being my fault for holding aggro. Nobody ever holds DPS accountable for the tank losing threat.
And as far as tanking goes, I gave up. To many DK's using death and decay and death grip make my and the healers job way too difficult. And you just can't seem to find a group without at least 1 ******* DK in it. And in the end it ends up being my fault for holding aggro. Nobody ever holds DPS accountable for the tank losing threat.
Quote:
And as far as tanking goes, I gave up. To many DK's using death and decay and death grip make my and the healers job way too difficult.
Wow... I have been wondering about this. I very rarely have any trouble holding aggro for the most part... except when I am grouped with DK's. It seems that every time I go to pull I immediately lose all aggro (until I get a Thunderclap in and a cleave). I am not savvy with DK's, is Death and Decay what is causing this problem? Is it normal for them to use this as their dps rotation? Or should I put a stop to that as soon as I see it?
I ask because I have only -ever- met one DK who DID NOT pull aggro from me at the beginning of each trash pull and boss fight, it seems like some sort of taunt ability, but a lot of DK's use it. I have held my tongue about so far because it doesn't take long to recover threat, but it's still pretty annoying.
Death grip is a ranged agro ability, it is a taunt and pulls the target to them. A dps Dk should only use this in special circumstance; maly sparks for example.
Death and decay should not be used for dps, with very special circumstance again. It's high threat even in blood/unholy stance. It uses a lot of runes to use, which prevents higher dps abilities from being applied.
I see lots of Dk's using DnD while soloing, and it nerd rages me that people use it at all for dps.
To compare it to warriors, it's like using taunt and shield slam while fury specced for dps...
If a dps character pulls threat and the tank is still up, it's absolutely the dps's fault for pulling agro.
Period.
Anyone who blames a tank for this in a pug is banned from playing wow for life.
Pugging Dk's shouldn't be pulling agro. If they are, they are not very good players.
If your threat seems low, but your survivability is fine (which I think your survivability is just fine if not overly good) then maybe switching out a tank item to dps item (you only need 535 defense skill to tank heroics) will help.
But, your expertise and hit rating are not low, and your AP is nice. You shouldn't have threat problems if your rotation/priority is good enough.
What are your rotations and could you give us a combat log (wws?)
Death and decay should not be used for dps, with very special circumstance again. It's high threat even in blood/unholy stance. It uses a lot of runes to use, which prevents higher dps abilities from being applied.
I see lots of Dk's using DnD while soloing, and it nerd rages me that people use it at all for dps.
To compare it to warriors, it's like using taunt and shield slam while fury specced for dps...
If a dps character pulls threat and the tank is still up, it's absolutely the dps's fault for pulling agro.
Period.
Anyone who blames a tank for this in a pug is banned from playing wow for life.
Pugging Dk's shouldn't be pulling agro. If they are, they are not very good players.
If your threat seems low, but your survivability is fine (which I think your survivability is just fine if not overly good) then maybe switching out a tank item to dps item (you only need 535 defense skill to tank heroics) will help.
But, your expertise and hit rating are not low, and your AP is nice. You shouldn't have threat problems if your rotation/priority is good enough.
What are your rotations and could you give us a combat log (wws?)
From the time of the post up until now I have come across a few upgrades, and I don't have a log to share, but I can tell you my rotation. It varies depending if I have rage or not, obviously. For an average instance I usually open up with a charge and a thunderclap just to have them on me to start. I immediately put up shield block (berserker rage if it's a large pull for extra rage), then whatever target I am attacking I usually hit shield slam (revenge if it is up) while spamming the hell out of cleave. Thunderclap whenever it is off cooldown and I only use shock wave if I have a good amount of rage (like 50+). I don't like to use shock wave too often because if I happen to have a group that puts out a lot of dps, I run out of rage while they are stunned from the shock wave and puts me at risk of losing aggro. I don't normally lose aggro ever unless a dps gets a lucky (or unlucky for me) string of crits.
For bosses I open up with a heroic throw, devastate, shield slam, and spam heroic strike (again, revenge if it is up). I never miss the free shield slam proc, that is a lot of threat to miss out on. I stack on devastates whenever the prior one is halfway up. That is basically it really.
For bosses I open up with a heroic throw, devastate, shield slam, and spam heroic strike (again, revenge if it is up). I never miss the free shield slam proc, that is a lot of threat to miss out on. I stack on devastates whenever the prior one is halfway up. That is basically it really.
EpicUnderwear wrote:
From the time of the post up until now I have come across a few upgrades, and I don't have a log to share, but I can tell you my rotation. It varies depending if I have rage or not, obviously. For an average instance I usually open up with a charge and a thunderclap just to have them on me to start. I immediately put up shield block (berserker rage if it's a large pull for extra rage), then whatever target I am attacking I usually hit shield slam (revenge if it is up) while spamming the hell out of cleave. Thunderclap whenever it is off cooldown and I only use shock wave if I have a good amount of rage (like 50+). I don't like to use shock wave too often because if I happen to have a group that puts out a lot of dps, I run out of rage while they are stunned from the shock wave and puts me at risk of losing aggro. I don't normally lose aggro ever unless a dps gets a lucky (or unlucky for me) string of crits.
For bosses I open up with a heroic throw, devastate, shield slam, and spam heroic strike (again, revenge if it is up). I never miss the free shield slam proc, that is a lot of threat to miss out on. I stack on devastates whenever the prior one is halfway up. That is basically it really.
For bosses I open up with a heroic throw, devastate, shield slam, and spam heroic strike (again, revenge if it is up). I never miss the free shield slam proc, that is a lot of threat to miss out on. I stack on devastates whenever the prior one is halfway up. That is basically it really.
Put shockwave in your rotation, it's high threat and damage and worth it. I used to save it too and tried not to use it too often. After reading EJ forums it went into my rotation. Even before I didn't have a problem with losing threat but it definitely should be in your rotations.
Concur with Mental. Shockwave should come immediately after your initial thunderclap. Charge in or do whatever you do to initiate combat, thunderclap for initial threat, and then take a second to position the mobs and shockwave them all. It's extremely high threat for the entire pack. If you're trying to maximize threat caused, make sure you don't pop shield block until after the shockwave has worn off, or you're wasting damage shield procs.
Now your gear looks much better :)
being bizzy in hc's batman ?
awesome progress
Take the 110 stamina trinket. Dont neglect to take dps gear also from anywhere you can. You never know when you ll need to DPS.(A lot of times in Naxx)
Naxx (more heroes gear), OS (ring),OS hc(valorous hands) your way up:)
gratz
being bizzy in hc's batman ?
awesome progress
Take the 110 stamina trinket. Dont neglect to take dps gear also from anywhere you can. You never know when you ll need to DPS.(A lot of times in Naxx)
Naxx (more heroes gear), OS (ring),OS hc(valorous hands) your way up:)
gratz
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