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Patch 3.2Follow

#1 Jun 18 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Death Knights

* Due to significant talent changes, all death knight talents will be reset for players.
* Blood Strike: The bonus damage this ability receives from diseases on the target has been increased to 50% per disease.
* Chains of Ice: Now reduces movement by 95% instead of 100%. The main effect of this change will be that targets of Chains of Ice will not have to re-issue a movement command to continue moving.
* Frost Presence: 10% bonus health reduced to 6% bonus stamina.
* Frost Strike: This ability can now be dodged, parried, or blocked. Weapon damage bonus reduced to 55%, down from 60%.
* Icebound Fortitude: Cooldown increased to 2 minutes.
* Talents
o Blood
+ Dancing Rune Weapon: This ability now has a fixed duration of 12 seconds (which can still be modified by its glyph) and a fixed cost of 60 runic power.
+ Veteran of the Third War: Stamina bonus reduced to 1/2/3%.
o Frost
+ Blood of the North: Reduced to a 3-point talent. Increases Blood Strike and Frost Strike damage by 5/10/15%. There is now a 33/66/100% chance whenever you hit with Blood Strike or Pestilence that the Blood Rune will become a Death Rune when it activates.
+ Lichborne: Duration reduced to 10 seconds, and cooldown reduced to 2 minutes.
+ Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.
+ Toughness: This talent now grants 2/4/6/8/10% armor instead of 3/6/9/12/15%, placing it in line with similar abilities of other classes.
o Unholy
+ Desecration: This talent has been reduced to 2 points for 25/50% snare and no longer increases damage done by the death knight. It has also been moved one tier earlier in the tree and its spell effect has been made more transparent.
+ Desolation: New talent. This talent is in the position formerly occupied by Desecration. It causes Blood Strikes to increase all damage the death knight deals by 1/2/3/4/5% for 12 seconds.
+ Scourge Strike: Weapon damage bonus reduced to 40%, down from 45%. Damage increased by 10% per disease on the target, down from 11%.
+ Summon Gargoyle: The gargoyle now flies lower to the ground, making it susceptible to melee attacks. This ability now has a fixed duration of 30 seconds and a fixed cost of 60 runic power.
+ Unholy Blight: This talent has been redesigned. It no longer deals damage to nearby targets. Instead, when you deal damage with Death Coil, the target will take periodic damage for 10 seconds equal to 30% of the damage done by Death Coil. This damage accumulates in the same way as Ignite and Deep Wounds.


Oh, hey, let's make Frost Strike dodge-, parry- and blockable. Smiley: frown
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#2 Jun 18 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Boo.

FS changes suck, it was the good, reliable DPS for tanks, plus damage is reduced.

I like the Frost tree change, 3 points in BotN.

IBF change sucks.

VotTW change ruins any idea I had for a Frost/Blood hybrid tank (probably a bad idea anyway)

The 6% Stam will be interesting...maybe stacking with Gargoyle glyph and Kings and other buffs it will come out better, since it scales?

ToT looks odd...bringing back DW..
#3 Jun 18 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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They need to figure out what the hell they want to do with DKs and do it already.
#4 Jun 18 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Can you say OUCH?

Nerfs for all tanking specs (and quite liberal ones), both in threat and mitigation.

The FS one HURTS. I suspect it is just a PvP nerf, but it hurts frost tanks a lot, too. Won't make much of a difference to PvE DpS (they should do their best to cap hit and expertise anyway).

And I HATE the new UB.
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#5 Jun 18 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Default
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+ Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.


I really like this. Sorry 2h Frost dps'ers, it's a fun tree, but I really like DW and I really like HB, so this is perfect.

Dunno how I feel about VotW Nerf for my Blood tanking though, match that up to 6% stam for FP, and I can kiss my 30k unbuffed health goodbye I guess.
#6 Jun 18 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm getting kind of tired of playing a class that radically changes every month or two...

Gah. I feel a burnout coming on.
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#7 Jun 18 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
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And I HATE the new UB.


This

Other than that

Quote:
* Frost Presence: 10% bonus health reduced to 6% bonus stamina.


Will be the only big change to my unholy tanking...
#8 Jun 18 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Will the new UB effect stack? If so, that looks nice. Otherwise a DPS loss.
#9 Jun 18 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
Wow... just wow... the tanking nerf's eh... I do like the strang buff, I do actually kinda like the new DRW. The unholy changes are interesting, I'll leave that in the wait and see category.
#10 Jun 18 2009 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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The stupidest part of the UB nerf?

Since launch (at least) Unholy has been the "AoE tanking tree." Blood has always had the highest Single Target threat. And Frost was competitive in both.

Now, with this change, Frost will be the best AoE (with high ST threat), Blood the best ST (with acceptable AoE threat) and Unholy not-so-competitive in both.

With the removal of Desecration's damage boost, Unholy will get BBs that do 10% more (through an off-tree talent) and WP. I have trouble seeing how that can compete with Blood Boils that do 45% more.

Stupid. Change.
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#11 Jun 18 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
idiggory wrote:
With the removal of Desecration's damage boost, Unholy will get BBs that do 10% more (through an off-tree talent) and WP. I have trouble seeing how that can compete with Blood Boils that do 45% more.


-20 points for not reading.

They didn't remove the damage boost, they moved it to your blood strikes instead of desecration. READ.
#12 Jun 18 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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-20 points for not reading.

They didn't remove the damage boost, they moved it to your blood strikes instead of desecration. READ.


-50 points for not comprehending.

They did remove Desecration's damage bonus and made a new talent for 5% damage boosts.

But, tell me, do you use Blood Strike when AoE tanking? I'd wager not. Do you use PS or SS? Definitely.

So, in a post specifically about AoE TpS, my point was perfectly valid. You will not be getting that 5% bonus to your AoE abilities.

In essence, they removed the damage boost from all AoE situations.
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#13 Jun 18 2009 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
There's not much you can do but roll with it, but I'm worried at how much of an impact this will have on me as a MT and on my guild overall.

I'm losing threat, hp, mitigation and well, Icebound is getting hit real hard... I don't know, it's gonna suck.
#14 Jun 18 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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this is getting ridonkulous. My Tanking specc gets changed (frost), my dmg specc gets mutilated (Unholy). Might even switch to blood just b/c Unholy doesn't feel like unholy anymore. UB change: sucks. Desecration change: sucks

Blizz needs to make up their minds FFS
#15 Jun 19 2009 at 1:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why did they nerf the health boost of Frost Presence? First the armor and now the health?

Right now I'm rolling with a Frost PvP build that includes Frost Presence (because I like the extra health). I'm getting 2k health out of it, which, you know, is one extra hit (not to mention crit) in combat.

And the Frost Strike change effectively ruined my day. Frost Strike was my only viable attack against tanks. Now they can block, parry and dodge them like crazy, not to mention once I finally get one in, it'll be at reduced damage.

Why stop here, Blizzard? Why not make Frost Strike a physical attack? And why not make it cost a Frost Rune instead? Here's an axe, why don't you chop my head off and **** down my neck while you're at it?
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#16 Jun 19 2009 at 2:34 AM Rating: Excellent
idiggory wrote:
-50 points for not comprehending.

But, tell me, do you use Blood Strike when AoE tanking? I'd wager not. Do you use PS or SS? Definitely.


-100 points for not knowing your class well enough to be flexible

Did I use BS before in aoe situations? No. Would I now? Probably. Yes unholy AoE got reduced some, but I am actually glad, it needed it. We'd actually changed whole strategies inside Ulduar because of how good it was. "oh have DKs do X, they have the best aoe." Like Thorim for example... the classes that have typically been the go-to class for AoE (mainly mages, but warlocks too) we have doing single target in the hallway because of DK AoE.

Every guild that ran hard-mode ran it with a DK. Why? Because of DK cooldowns like IBF on a 1 minute cooldown. Because, previously, DKs had those amazing cooldowns (better than any other tank in the game) PLUS a frost presence that had a passive mitigation almost as good as, if not better than (especially on magic fights) druids.

Yes, Blizzard's policy is to nerf the one, rather than buff the entire rest of the classes. If you didn't see this coming from miles away, you were just ignorant.

So much chicken little here, guess I need to just stay away for a while.
#17 Jun 19 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Default
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Hooray for the nerf-bat....

I also would like to say though....quitcherbitchin....we should have seen this coming, now it has, deal with it, make your new build and continue playing.
#18 Jun 19 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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As always, my real opinion will be reserved for when the patch goes live and I'm actually playing.

But on paper, I'm getting tired of these tanking nerfs. Maybe DK tanks are OP when they have best in slot gear, but I'm really not feeling OP in comparison to my guild's other tanks in my Naxx stuff. If it is a gear thing, they should fix the gear to scale better, not a flat nerf.

Maybe I'm just having a Chicken Little reaction here, but I'm just tired of seeing my stats fall every patch. I just can't see why they're doing it.

The changes to DRW and Garg just lost some fun too. I liked the way that the skills used to be more powerful if you were better at managing your RP, now they're just fire and forget.

I'm slightly interested to see if DW becomes viable. I've had 2 purple one-handers in my bank for a while now.
#19 Jun 19 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
+ Desolation: New talent. This talent is in the position formerly occupied by Desecration. It causes Blood Strikes to increase all damage the death knight deals by 1/2/3/4/5% for 12 seconds.


This is essentially the same as the old desecration, so the damage bonus was not removed. This is better because you can now kite the boss and keep the damage bonus. They just changed the name. So Dilbert needs his points back.

iddigory wrote:
Quote:
But, tell me, do you use Blood Strike when AoE tanking? I'd wager not. Do you use PS or SS? Definitely.


Why are you using SS and PS for AoE tanking? And as I stated above, you will get this bonus, and you will most likely see greater benefit because the target does not have to stay in the area, the bonus moves with them. Blood strike is getting a buff and is used for DRs very often, this will be a good thing for Unholy.

So Dilbert wins.
#20 Jun 19 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Why are you using SS and PS for AoE tanking?


Because they apply a disease.... that you can then pestilence and Blood Boil for AoE threat.... you have actually tanked on your DK before right?
#21 Jun 19 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Anyone know how much expertise you'd need to make Frost Strike (and everything else) unavoidable in PvP? I heard 52 or 56 for PvE, but I figure it's much higher in PvP since people tend to wear gear that increases dodge and parry.
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#22 Jun 19 2009 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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To go along with Mazra's question, how are expertise and dodge/parry related?

Example- I have 32 expertise and the guy I am targeting has 32 dodge, does it even out? do I have a higher chance to hit him than he has to dodge me or is it vice versa?

Same question for parry. Since expertise increases the chance that your enemy won't dodge or parry, will having 32 dodge AND 32 parry have the same effect as only having 32 of either or would the 32 experise cancel out one and leave the other one on the table?

I don't PvP much so I really don't care, am just curious to see the relationship between these stats.
#23 Jun 19 2009 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Anyone know how much expertise you'd need to make Frost Strike (and everything else) unavoidable in PvP?

Depends on who you're attacking, not every player has the same dodge or parry rate. But I know what you're thinking and forget it. Expertise is, and always has been, a poor PvP choice.

In other news, "I heard 52 or 56 [Expertise] for PvE" to remove dodge and parry completely from the raid boss hit table? For dodge perhaps (sorta, kinda), but for parry (which is much higher) it would more along the lines of 80ish. BUT that's assuming a static Def number for every boss, which is an inaccurate assumption.

Regardless of what the actual stat numbers are to cap it, I doubt you could gear for that much Expertise anyway. And even if there is enough gear to do it you would have to sacrifice all the other stats to do so.

See this and this.

EDIT:

Katchii wrote:
I have 32 expertise and the guy I am targeting has 32 dodge, does it even out?

No, no, no, a thousand times no. Please read the links above.

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 2:21pm by TherionSaysWhat
#24 Jun 19 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Default
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Because they apply a disease.... that you can then pestilence and Blood Boil for AoE threat.... you have actually tanked on your DK before right?


I can understand now what he meant by using these as AoE threat. Also the SS or PS would trigger the Desecrate and then boost UB damage. I was thinking too direct. Don't you worry, I've tanked extensively.

The damage is still there that can be moved around, instead of being in one place. Now it is blood strike for one rotation, so you lose on the BB in first rotation, however you will then be dealing 5% more damage while kiting or moving the group. So this is can be a huge boost. I see this as quite a bonus.

#25 Jun 19 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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+ Desolation: New talent. This talent is in the position formerly occupied by Desecration. It causes Blood Strikes to increase all damage the death knight deals by 1/2/3/4/5% for 12 seconds.


I thought Unholy death knights used Plague Strike, Icy Touch and Scourge Strike? Does this mean they'll be getting a new core ability or am I missing something here?

The UB change seems thoroughly weird to me, I don't have a good idea how it'll play yet. Sounds like a shame regardless, I liked the buzzy graphics on the original spell.
#26 Jun 19 2009 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know if I'd bother including Blood Strikes in my AoE tanking rotation, but I probably won't. Actually, the idea seems stupid. 5% more damage for only 12 seconds? At the cost of half my major burst threat? Unless your crit is insanely high, that will be a huge drop in TpS in an AoE situation.

For one thing, this makes starting fights as Unholy difficult.

You can:

DnD>PS>IT>Pest
PS>IT>Pest>BS>SS

The first option gives you AoE threat in the first 10 seconds, and you won't gain the buff.
The second gives you the buff, but minimal threat in the first 10 seconds.

And, because the buff only lasts for 12 seconds after a BS, then it still requires you to sacrifice a BB per rotation, which is a LOT of AoE threat to lose.

For single targets, I would agree that it is a buff (at least on fights that are mobile, assuming your spec takes Desecration, which mine never have).

For AoE, it is definitely a nerf.

I am flexible. I have already considered about 15 different rotations for Unholy tanking. All of my theory crafting is placing them FAR below the other two specs in terms of AoE. I haven't looked at Single-target yet. In order for an Unholy DK to hold threat now, they will HAVE to use DnD every 15 seconds, take more AP than other specs (sacrificing other stats) and take the DnD glyph. Before now, only Blood ever "had" to DnD that often (though they didn't need the glyph), and it was compounded with being able to produce far higher single-target threat.

I'll continue working on it. But, I doubt I'll be running as an Unholy tank if these changes go into the patch.
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IDrownFish wrote:
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