Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

3 Tree Paladin Changes for 3.2Follow

#1 Jun 18 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Eyonix on O-boards wrote:
We have several big changes coming up for the paladin class in patch 3.2. The paladin class Q&A is still in progress, so rather than making you wait, we wanted to give you a preview of what we’re trying to do with all three paladin talent trees. We thought some of the patch notes might not make sense until you understand the design goals.

Caveats: Some of these changes are still in progress and may ultimately end up in a different form or with different numbers. We definitely want to see these changes in action on the PTR and we will iterate on them accordingly based on player testing and feedback. None of this is set in stone. Furthermore, assume that talents, glyphs or set bonuses that affect any impacted abilities will also be changed accordingly. Finally, don’t expect that every class will see this many changes. We are making far fewer changes to class mechanics overall in 3.2, but paladins in particular have some issues we feel are in need of being addressed.

Protection

Currently, we think paladin tanks are almost there and that they just need slightly better cooldowns to handle some of the tougher boss fights. Rather than add a new ability that felt like a clone of another class’s ability, we decided to buff an existing talent that was no longer cutting it. Ardent Defender has two important changes. The first is that the damage can no longer “skip over” the 35% health level – it will always be reduced. Secondly, it has a new effect that if a blow would kill you, it instead sets you to 30% health. This portion of the ability cannot occur more than once every 2 minutes. Think of it as a Last Stand that you don’t have to push.

A second change to Protection is we want to make sure Blessing of Sanctuary is always the tanking blessing of choice. A likely change here is to have it boost stamina as well.

We also recognize that block does not provide the mitigation it once did. While we have long-term plans to change the way block works entirely, in the short term we are doubling the effect of bonus block value on items (so jewelry, but not shields).

Holy

We like that Holy paladins have a niche as single-target healers. The problem is we think this niche is a little too narrow at the moment. Furthermore, paladins don’t have a wide ******* of healing spells so it’s important that all of them are being used.

First, we are changing Flash of Light so that it places a heal-over-time effect on any target with Sacred Shield on them (the effect will be similar to Sheathe of Light). This should make Flash see a little more use.

Second, and more importantly, we are changing the way Beacon of Light works. Currently, it does not count over-healing on the target. We are changing that. In other words, if you place Holy Light on a rogue who is already at full health, it will still have the full effect on a tank with Beacon of Light on them. This is a huge buff, particularly when you consider the Holy Light glyph which allows for a small amount of “splash” healing. This effect isn’t common when you use Holy Light on a tank because the tank is often standing alone. But if you heal the melee, you are likely to get a lot more total healing from this effect (while still healing the tank through Beacon of Light). We are also going to try to allow a target to have more than one beacon (i.e. from different paladins) on them.

Many players may surmise that this change would make paladins far and away the best healers in the game. This is partially because paladin mana regeneration is so potent. That isn’t an issue when the paladin can generally only heal the tank. With the Beacon of Light change, the paladin can provide a lot more raid or party healing. To adjust for this, we are going to reduce the amount of mana returned by Illumination. If you use Holy Light too recklessly (such as on targets who don’t require that much healing) you do risk burning out of mana too quickly. Of course, they will still have Divine Plea and other mana regeneration mechanics.

As a footnote, we are also likely to slightly adjust Replenishment and buff the amount of MP5 on gear.

These changes should lead to healing as Holy being more dynamic – you are going to be targeting a lot more group members than just the tank, while still providing massive healing on the tank. However, you won’t be able to just constantly spam your biggest heals, at least not on the more challenging encounters. There is an opportunity here for skilled players to really do some outstanding healing as paladins, but it’s going to take a little more effort. This is something a lot of players have been asking for so we hope that it delivers without completely changing what some paladins enjoy about their healing style.

Retribution

Depending on who you ask, Retribution paladins are either perceived as being in need of improvements to make them stronger or are in need of changes to make them less powerful. We are really happy with the overall changes to the Seal and Judgement system from Lich King. However, Ret still has some problems. There aren’t enough buttons to push and they are all limited by cooldowns, allowing Ret paladins to have a lot of up-front burst without requiring a lot of skill or timing to actually hit those buttons (now after the opening moves of a fight, we think things get a lot more interesting because now the paladin’s defenses, healing and dispelling can come into play). We have other problems to fix as well. Exorcism currently can’t be used on players, which we think is a weak design. We have also become less enamored with the drawback to Seal of Blood / Seal of the Martyr causing damage to the paladin.

Here are the design changes we hope will fix all of these problems:

First, Exorcism has a cast time of 1.5 seconds but can be used on players again. This will let paladins use it in PvP, but not while moving towards a target.

Second, we are changing The Art of War to make not only Flash of Light instant, but also Exorcism. Choose healing or damage. Paladins will have to watch for this proc and use Exorcism when it happens. The spell itself is still ranged, but the proc will only occur when the paladin is already in melee.

Third, we are lowering the cooldown and damage of Crusader Strike to four seconds from six seconds. This accomplishes a few things. It lowers burst, it gives the paladins more buttons to push since they aren’t always waiting on cooldowns, it requires a little more skill since the player will have to choose between Crusader Strike and other attacks more often (such as the new Exorcism procs), and it gives Retribution a chance to get more damage out of their Seals (providing a sustained DPS boost for PvE).

Fourth, we are removing Seal of Blood and Seal of the Martyr. The damage recoil increasingly felt like a liability in PvE, and wasn’t serving to offset the massive burst damage capable in PvP. We are buffing Seal of Vengeance / Corruption and redesigning Seal of Command with the expectation that these are now the seals of choice for PvP and PvE. Righteousness can remain a tanking seal.

Finally, we are replacing the current effect of Vindication with an attack power debuff that works like Demoralizing Shout. In PvP, Ret paladins can still debuff melee targets, while in PvE they can provide another necessary debuff in the case that the tank is not a warrior or druid. In addition, the talent may be more attractive to Protection paladins.

These changes do not close the door on adding additional attacks, PvP utility or even the oft-requested Crusader Strike debuff. If the changes outlined above finally accomplish the goal of balancing Retribution in PvE and PvP, then we can start exploring those other design issues.

Again, these are our current plans and they may change based on testing and feedback. The changes to all three trees are things we are working on right now. Some of them might not work out quite the way we intended and will have to undergo iteration before finally showing up in 3.2. Even once the patch goes live, we are still likely to have to tweak numbers. This is simply a preview of what may yet come and we hope that it will be viewed as such.
#2 Jun 18 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,909 posts
Tanking changes sound good. Don't know about holy.

A cast time on Exorcism means it resets the swing timer, which makes it useless. Tying it to Art of War is a neat way of bypassing that, but I'd still prefer a different option.

Lowered CD on Crusader Strike is...well, a straight-up buff. Means I'll be hitting another button more often, too. I'd prefer it if they'd set up some sort of debuff system so we had to think about our PvP moves, but whatever. Vindication change is well deserved. Makes it useful for PvE and changes its PvP imbalance.

Removing Seal of Blood? I don't like that. We don't want less seals, we want more seals with more utility so we're forced to choose between them and actually think about it like we had to in the old system. SoB was ludicrously good at everything, but removing it entirely just means we fall back on SoComm. And I don't think anyone uses Righteousness for tanking. I sure as hell don't.

The Ret changes are mostly positive, but I find them somewhat confusing. They don't seem like what Ret needs at the moment. Prot changes sound lovely, though. More stamina for me. And that Ardent Defender change is ******* tits.
#3 Jun 18 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
****
7,732 posts
Quote:
Think of it as a Last Stand that you don’t have to push.


/jealous

____________________________
Hellbanned

idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
#4 Jun 18 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
Horsemouth wrote:
/jealous


We can't complain, Bears have their no-button shield. Smiley: laugh



I know, it doesn't make it any easier to swallow...like Protadin's needed a buff...
#5 Jun 18 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
***
1,634 posts
I am Tank First, DPS Second, Never Heals.


Tanking changes sound great.

1. 35% thing looks good
2. B.Sanc is already my tanking Buff - so buffing it is great.
3. Not sure what "Items" means but I doubt it will have a huge impact. I think I have a Trinket that boosts by block by about 50... Now that's 100. So instead of dropping the incoming blow by 50 - it will now drop it by 100... Ehhh... that's not a fix to the poor value of block mechanics, but it's better than nothing.


Ret is my solo/DPS spec.

I see no massive problems with this. I really wannt another attack, but the 6 second to 4 second will be good.
#6 Jun 18 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
**
370 posts
whats that you say? another major content patch coming up?

well, gee, guess we better gut retribution and redesign it from scratch in a haphazard poorly though out fashion! tweeks are for the meek.
#7 Jun 18 2009 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
***
3,909 posts
Tsarducci wrote:
well, gee, guess we better gut retribution and redesign it from scratch in a haphazard poorly though out fashion! tweeks are for the meek.


They do do this often, don't they.
#8 Jun 18 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,443 posts
They're buffing Seal of Vengeance, removing Seal of Blood and redesigning Seal of Command, but they still want us to use Seal of Righteousness for tanking?

What's Seal of Vengeance used for then?

And how can they change Seal of Command to be just half as useful as Seal of Blood? Okay, so it procs on every hit? Now we've got a Seal of Blood with no recoil. Doubt it.

Crusader Strike gets a cooldown and damage reduction, meaning we get less burst and thus fail miserably at pretty much any healing class in the game currently. Discipline Priests and Restoration Druids are freakin' tough to take out if you can't spell lock them for the entire fight. They get off one heal and it's back to base one.

Exorcism gains PvP use, but at the cost of insta-heals.

All of this and they still can't figure out how to balance our mana regen? Three Mana Burns and I'm out. No mana, no sugar, baby. Having more buttons to push means diddly-squat if our mana pool is zero. I guess I should stack intellect?
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#9 Jun 18 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
****
4,074 posts
Quote:
First, we are changing Flash of Light so that it places a heal-over-time effect on any target with Sacred Shield on them (the effect will be similar to Sheathe of Light). This should make Flash see a little more use.


There's my HOT! Yay for my HOT!


Quote:
we are going to reduce the amount of mana returned by Illumination


This will make deep Holy even less viable for PVP than it is now. I'll be interested to see how much it affects those of us who are already relying primarily on JoTW or Divine Plea for our mana anyway.

The Beacon of Light change sounds huge, but I don't do PVE enough to have a really informed opinion. I don't normally spec for it.

Overall, I'm pretty happy. They'd been talking so sinisterly about redesigning the class mechanics that I was scared.
#10 Jun 18 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
**
889 posts
Quote:
we are going to reduce the amount of mana returned by Illumination

60% mana returned -> 30% mana returned

"Reduce" doesn't quite do that justice.
#11 Jun 18 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,443 posts
I just noticed that Seal of Command is being redesigned to do 36% weapon damage on every hit (like Blood/Martyr), but without recoil effect and with reduced judgement damage.

36% compared to Blood/Martyr's 48% makes me sad.
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#12 Jun 18 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
*
170 posts
Last I knew if someone, or a team, kept f*cking things up as often as Blizz seem to do with Ret they got sacked.

I do not think that I like any of the rubbish that they seem to think is an awesome idea. I know that things are subject to change prior to 3.2 but I think the way it appears to be going I will retire my pally.

Opinions are going to be divided of course, the non pallies will love it as with those who have a pally as an alt (an alt they don't really care about which I am sure is quite common) others will probably like the idea. So far the majority seem to be nerfs and as it is I see pally use plummeting.

The rate it is going, soon Blizz will have to pay me to play wow.
#13 Jun 18 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
*
170 posts
Also, just noticed this:

Quote:
Depending on who you ask, Retribution paladins are either perceived as being in need of improvements to make them stronger or are in need of changes to make them less powerful.


Really????? FFS, you can say that about any class and spec in the game, but it appears pallies again, get some 'special attention' on the basis of this will they redesign every class?
#14 Jun 18 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,761 posts
I'm torn on holy, but I guess I'll have to adapt. I think I'll still be fine on mana if I play smart and don't just spam overheals the whole time.

My PVE glyphs will probably be Beacon of Light, Holy Light, Seal of Wisdom. I think for shorter fights Divinity beats Beacon of Light, it depends how many times you cast beacon, and how many times you cast it with divine illumination up.

Illumination nerf itself is harsh, and replenishment is nerfed a bit as well. Mp5 gets buffed and crit isn't as important for holy anymore. The up side is I'll take way more pieces from Ulduar that I would have passed on before because I didn't like the old stat allocation. Now that I don't feel so reliant on crit I'll probably wind up with mp5 on almost every piece of gear I have, which is probably fine. I wonder how much mana per fight I'll actually gain from all that mp5 though, I guess I'd have to see how much I'm working with first.

The one thing that is pretty cool is beacon OVERHEAL transfers, not that I'll just be sitting there spamming overheal on the rogues, but sometimes you do get sniped, and the heal you thought was going to transfer to your tank doesn't transfer. Now you don't have to worry about a heal being sniped and letting your tank die so we can contribute alot more on raid healing. In Naxx this was kind of my healing style, minus the overheal transfer portion. But in Ulduar I was so scared to heal anyone but the tank because they get hit so hard and fast.


The ones who just spam overheals on the rogues will go OOM for sure. The name of the game will be minimizing your overhealing done (not counting beacon overhealing or JoL). Oh speaking of JoL, we can finally cast it again! Now we get to fight over who keeps it up on the boss. Those freaking ret paladins better not cast it though, but holy will be spamming back and forth trying to overwrite eachother. Which is lame in some ways, we shouldn't be fighting eachother wasting GCDs like that. But at least our JoL heals the same as a ret/prot does finally. Rets all love their improved might so much, I'm just going to drop it and shave 2 seconds off my judgement again. They can do might on the raid.

So thats my thoughts on holy, Illumination cut in half, replenishment nerfed, mp5 buffed a little, beacon overheal transfers to tank. I'd say we have a bit of a new healing style, a little more flexible, a fair bit more punishment for sloppy healing. Maybe I'm a sloppy healer, Bode always talks about ending fights with full mana but I never do that. We'll see I'll try to tighten my game up for 3.2


A few things I want to download for 3.2, maybe someone can help me out?

A good, small little UI element that's easily draggable, tracks who my SS and Beacon are on, how much time is left

Another method of checking who's judgement of light is on the boss (ie: is mine up? for how much longer?)

Finally if anyone has the target-of-target judge macro, so I can hit my judgements without actually targetting the boss. But something that will also work normally while soloing as well.
#15 Jun 18 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,882 posts
I have to agree. These great ideas have me royally PO'd. Didn't they promise a month ago to stop totally redesigning classes? Back the hell off my paladin.

Seal of Righteousness...a tanking seal? What? Are you on crack?! I don't know ANY paladin who has even half an idea of what they are doing use righteousness. Even back in BC. Do these people actually play their game? What kind of comment is that?

I don't understand how they feel beacon of light is actually an improvement... what do they expect us to do? Not put it on the tank anymore? Recast it continually on different melee? What? I don't understand.

#16 Jun 18 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
Ghost in the Machine
Avatar
******
36,443 posts
A final thing that bugs the hell out of me is that they're going to make changes that affect a lot of talent builds (I don't have Seal of Command in my build, for instance), but they don't offer a respec. The Death Knights, however, get one.
____________________________
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#17 Jun 18 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,912 posts
Quote:
Removing Seal of Blood? I don't like that. We don't want less seals, we want more seals with more utility so we're forced to choose between them and actually think about it like we had to in the old system. SoB was ludicrously good at everything, but removing it entirely just means we fall back on SoComm. And I don't think anyone uses Righteousness for tanking. I sure as hell don't.


SoB removed.
SoC replaced with a redundant version of SoR.

For those who used SoB = Net burst loss + net DPS loss.
For those who used SoC = Net burst loss + net DPS loss.

Quote:
Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage.


While it's a complete loss of burst you're not going to burst anything anymore with the new versions of the seals. And this will have more sustained DPS for long fights (and I predict your fights will become long fights now...) so you'll probably use this for both PvE and PvP unless they put SoC back in.

This is why you can't have a main, you need many level 80's so that you can switch each time your main gets broken. Well, for some classes this is easier. Warriors just respec to arms when they nerfed TG, but Paladins just have 1 spec.


Edited, Jun 18th 2009 6:52pm by xorq
#18 Jun 18 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
Holy paladin changes are pretty much trash.

Divine Int nerf was a good move, as well as the doubling of Mp5 gear, that was a good way of enforcing a shift in itemization.

Divine Shield HoT is trash, pretty much through and through. The procced shield contains the buff, not the actual Sacred Shield 30 second buffage. So how much you will get off it is questionable and its only one target. Basically think 2 piece T8, which right now is about 0.05% of your total healing for the avg boss fight. I am sure in 1-2 patches after 3.2 they will get it right, until then its pretty much a non event and will not change how you heal to any great extent.

Illumination Crit is going to suck for hardmodes where we were just chugging along with barely enough regen to get by. Especially since they are so Holy Light intensive and Crit has always been the primary mana regen stat that goes with HL, (where Mp5 balanced well with FoL spam).

Beacon of Light is not used as they intended it, with perhaps the exception of Sapphirron, mostly you will be placing it on yourself (think Mirmiron) and raid healing or MT healing. The change to Overhealing was good because it will allow for a shift to Beaconing the MT, before it was too unreliable to be used on a lot of Ulduar fights.

End of the day we are going to have to start picking up MP5 gear, shifting off some haste/crit and will end up less reliable MT healers, with the ability to do some sub par raid healing.


End of the day its a mixed bag, the change to Beacon was HUGE, the rest was pretty much the biggest nerf we have taken in 18 months. We also got ANOTHER semi useless hot. We will be able to raid heal more while providing a focus on the tank, but we are still as uninteresting as we were before compared to Druids and Disc Priests. They really need to sit down and revamp Resto Shammy and Paladin healing from the ground up for the next expac because in comparison to those two we are playing pretty boring heal classes that are uninspired and showing their age.

Edited, Jun 18th 2009 7:03pm by bodhisattva
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#19 Jun 18 2009 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,074 posts
bodhisattva wrote:
Holy paladin changes are pretty much trash.


Well that is a bummer. I didn't realize how bad it is for PVE. Over at Arena Junkies all the talk is about how godly prot healers are going to be. Smiley: lol Which, even for PVP, one might consider that the healing tree ought to hold the best spec for, yanno, healing. Most good PVP healers (of which I am not one) are still using some variation of 52/19 but I have a feeling the passionate minorities for prot and hybrid builds are going to gain momentum.

Personally, I've preferred those weird builds for a long time now, so these inexplicable buffs to them will be good for me.

However, my Ret husband is... going back to his rogue.
#20 Jun 18 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
**
889 posts
Quote:
Finally if anyone has the target-of-target judge macro, so I can hit my judgements without actually targetting the boss. But something that will also work normally while soloing as well.


This is the one I made, I think I've updated it since the last time I posted it:

#showtooltip Judgement of Light
/cast [harm] [target=targettarget, harm] Judgement of Light
/targetlasttarget [harm]


A) It will Judge your target's target the first time you hit it.
B) The 2nd time it will bounce back to the target you were healing.
C) If you don't have Judgment ready while targeting an ally, it does nothing.
D) If you are already targeting an enemy it will Judge it (for soloing, but the bounce back part will target yourself if Judgment is on cooldown and you hit it)
#21 Jun 18 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
The ardent defender change has gotten shamefully little attention. This thing is ridiculous. The "prot healers" in PvP are already ridiculously hard to kill. For PvE it's a huge change. For PvP it's basically asking for a nerf.
#22 Jun 18 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
I need to look and see if -5% mana cost still beats Seal of Command which gives 8% of base mana per judgement, 7.5 judgements per minute, works out to something like 84 mp5. But you are using GCD's for that.
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#23 Jun 18 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,761 posts
2v2 is going to be dead anyways, since your rating won't give you access to gear. In any other bracket it's a non-existant spec. Even in 2s people are just jumping on the QQ bandwagon, holy is literally 3x as strong where are the complaints there?
#24 Jun 18 2009 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
It was better in 3s than 2s in the first place. It lacked the damage output to really help out against a healer, although it has great utility. Played right I've seen it over 1800 in all brackets. Something about a 38k HP healer is just wrong.
#25 Jun 18 2009 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,761 posts
Loki wrote:
It was better in 3s than 2s in the first place. It lacked the damage output to really help out against a healer, although it has great utility. Played right I've seen it over 1800 in all brackets. Something about a 38k HP healer is just wrong.


In my 800 resilience gear as holy I have 19500hp with kings. Tell me where the other 18,000 comes from by respecing and swapping a handful of gems from int to stam.
#26 Jun 18 2009 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
**
889 posts
Quote:
In my 800 resilience gear as holy I have 19500hp with kings. Tell me where the other 18,000 comes from by respecing and swapping a handful of gems from int to stam.

Tenacity? XD

But yeah, how many tanks do you know with 38k hp who aren't druids? =/
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 300 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (300)