Vindication nerf.Follow

I just saw on the main page where vindication would no longer reduce strength and int. What the heck is the problem? That's the point of the talent, to reduce attributes by 10%/20%. I don't roll Ret at all, so I don't know how important it is to "yall" (not lawl).

What is the logic behind this? Are Ret paladins that OP in PvP now that Blizzard actually sat around and brainstormed (like, 2 seconds, on a good day, if the wind is right) to cut a couple pretty important stats out of it? I mean, if it was something like spirit, who would really care that much

(As I am typing this I am sure someone will come in here and be like, "Oh yure sooo newb! XXXX uses spirt sooo mcuh! roflcopter, leet, epeen!")

Personally, I am prot, and have seen several builds that use Vindication as a form of damage reduction. 20% less strength is translating into less AP, correct? Anyways, I do imagince most bosses would be quite immune to this effect, so it is probably mostly for trash.

I would love to hear any PvP'ers take on this, as I assume it is way more important to them than a PvE'er.

I wonder if they will increase the effect to 20%/40% to compensate? Or make it reduce players interest rate on all savings/bonds by 10%/20%, now THAT would be OP.

I don't think it was very big on PVE (Never seen a paly drop a raid boss for 20% stamina/HP) but I think it was intended to fix PVP.

As a Prot/Ret - I don't really mind this.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 3:42pm by Borsuk

Thank you mike for the correction on it being stam/int instead of strength/int.

Isn't that kinda the point of a Ret Paladin though, to blow through HP quickly?

That's the whole mantra of a DPS class, do more damage to them than they do to you.

Is Ret Paladin the most powerful DPS class in the game right now? Prolly not. Each one of us could name at least 3 face rolling DKs who would top an average Ret DPS'er. I understand that probably most of the people who take time to come to the boards and learn and work on their builds and tweak their rotations can probably make a Ret Pally very competitive with the other classes.

Oh wait, wait, wait. I just remembered something not too long ago about Blizzard wanting to either lower burst damage/ lengthen PvP matches. I guess that would tone down a Ret Pally, without really nerfing a vital DPS tool.

Thanks fellas.

Yeah I think now vindication has become optional in the PVP ret spec, so feel free to spend the 2 points elsewhere. It can help, lowering the targets damage, but I don't think it's mandatory anymore. Where to put the points now? Kind of depends on your current spec, hehe.

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to see some class wide shield block type ability on a cooldown, sort of a bonus for the "skilled" rets who realize they're being bursted hard and pop sword + board. We have no defensive stance, but maybe some class wide cooldown should be added that reduces damage or melee damage taken when you have a shield equipped.

I know theres glyph of salv which I use in both my specs (ret + holy), maybe that's enough, maybe it's not. I still rarely see rets pop sword + board like warriors though. It's alot of setup to go full defensive as well, like you'd want to pull up seal of light for a little, get a good fast 1h swapped in with a shield, probably put up devo armor, that would lower melee damage taken by around 13-14% in my gear, in addition to numerous self heals from SoL. But so many globals just to setup. If you popped glyph of salv here, thats a 4th global.


I just saw yet another nerf, and I can't help but feel they are just gutting the spec and not going to add anything new to sort of raise the skill cap or make it viable at high ratings. I kind of ranted in another thread about how easy ret is, but that's only against your average BG bads. Arena is a different story, ret is kind of a joke against healers, now they nerfed vindication into near uselessness, and the most recent nerf is removing the interupt portion of HoJ.

Edited, Jun 9th 2009 5:39pm by mikelolol

It'll reduce the target's strength and agility by 20%. That's pretty defensive, no?

Also,



O hai thar mr. Seal of Command. Damage reduced to 70% weapon damage just because? Kk, thx.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 9:16pm by Mazra

How about this:



Cause there's no way the target you are attacking is able to fight back, amirite? I think a talent that allows you to lower a target's damage makes perfect sense.

And you mentioned making it more like Frost Armor or Nature's Grasp: no. Too much class homogenization already. Let some differences stay different.

Vindicate according to dictionary.com has the following as one possible definition:



Implies action, not reaction, so again this talent does indeed make sense.

Part of the problem of people's perception of the "hammer of justice wtf-dead kill" came from Vindication. As soon as the ret touches you, -20% hp. As soon as you are below 20% hp, instant crit hammer of wrath. Having a 40% hp disadvantage against a ret was rather huge, i had been discussing vindication a lot before this change.

What i would like to see next is some balancing of the inherent health advantage of certain classes in pvp; namely warriors and death knights naturally having 28k or so health in pvp gear.

Stamina accounts for 15k of my 21k hp. 35% hp advantage then, it's not very different. And i'm not talking about self-buffs, i mean classes with +%stam talents that give them a lot more hp in pvp gear.

Ah, my bad for failing at reading comprehension then. And I agree with you, for the record.

Blizzard isn't really that pedantic. I mean...Retribution Aura?