Armor penetration, does that help dps, when he/she(hunter) is at ranged distance? or is it only wenn we melee?
Thx.
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Armor penetrationFollow
ArP applies to both ranged and melee physical attacks, however it is still not a good stat for hunters.
Lady isyris wrote:
ArP applies to both ranged and melee physical attacks, however it is still not a good stat for hunters.
Why?
This is exactly the sort of response that frustrates me. (I'm not ranting, just stating my feelings on these relatively vague answers that often pop up in threads)
I'd love to hear more about why armor penetration isn't a good stat for hunters.
Despite the high level of my toons, I still consider myself a "noob" since I so rarely get to group and do instances and what-not.
Which means I don't really get to discover these things on my own. (To be perfectly honest, I don't think I'm the brightest bulb in the chandelier, either)
And to be quite frank, when I DO try to look up this sort of info online, I more often than not fall on those acronym-laden webpages written in what SEEMS to be English and yet remains pure gibberish to me.
capcanuk wrote:
I'd love to hear more about why armor penetration isn't a good stat for hunters.
It's not that armor penetration is bad, per se. It's that when the math is done, it doesn't provide as much damage as pretty much every other stat hunters can get.
If you can't read the sites that don't seem to be in English to you, you're not going to be able to understand the detailed explanation. If you could read them, you wouldn't be asking. If you don't like these simple responses, you need to read about the math.
CBD wrote:
capcanuk wrote:
I'd love to hear more about why armor penetration isn't a good stat for hunters.
It's not that armor penetration is bad, per se. It's that when the math is done, it doesn't provide as much damage as pretty much every other stat hunters can get.
This is exactly it.
Hit (up to cap), Crit, AP, Agi, Intellect, and Stamina (for SV hunters) offer more bang for your buck--you shouldn't be going for ArP over any of those stats. It falls more into the category of filler stats along with Haste: stats that tend to come with gear but that shouldn't be gemmed or enchanted for. It's a bit more useful for a BM hunter than Haste is, as BM gets steady shot haste capped from talents alone, but for MM or SV even Haste would likely be better to help in tightening up their shot rotations (rotation meaning "stuff you do to kill stuff here", not so much a strict pattern).
To clarify,
Agility
Attack Power*
Critical Strike Rating
Hit Rating* (only to cap)
Intellect (especially with talents)
Stamina* (especially with talents)
Armor Penetration Rating
Haste Rating
Stamina* (in low-stress situations for non-SV hunters)
Defense Rating
Dodge Rating
Expertise Rating
Spell Power
Spirit
Strength
Resilience
Spell Penetration
Green: Good stat. Gear for it, gem for it, enchant for it.
Yellow-green: Still good, but situational. Gear for it, but enchant and gem better stats.
Yellow: Filler. Comes on gear designed for Hunters, helps a little, but not worth gemming or enchanting for.
Red: Bad stat. Hunters get almost no use out of it--only choose gear with this stat when the other stats on the piece would make it a significant upgrade even without this stat present.
Blue: Useful mainly in PvP. Be cautious about allowing any significant amount of this stat in your PvE gear.
*This stat transfers directly to the Hunter's pet either partially or fully.
edit: and I am NOT a math person. I just pay attention to the folks who are.
So, if you need a more detailed explanation of why this is so, go pester Aethien or someone, okay? Edited, Jun 6th 2009 9:03pm by isyris
capcanuk wrote:
Lady isyris wrote:
ArP applies to both ranged and melee physical attacks, however it is still not a good stat for hunters.
Why?
This is exactly the sort of response that frustrates me. (I'm not ranting, just stating my feelings on these relatively vague answers that often pop up in threads)
That leaves about 30-35% of our damage that is affected by Armor Penetration.
Quote:
Intellect (especially with talents)
Stamina* (especially with talents)
Armor Penetration Rating
Haste Rating
Stamina* (in low-stress situations for non-SV hunters)
Stamina* (especially with talents)
Armor Penetration Rating
Haste Rating
Stamina* (in low-stress situations for non-SV hunters)
Uhh, what the ****?
ArP is far above Stamina in all situations. Stamina never contributes to DPS (and don't give me the "dead player=no DPS" argument).
Yuppley wrote:
Stamina never contributes to DPS (and don't give me the "dead player=no DPS" argument).
This seems kinda like trying to claim the run speed enchant on boots is awful because it doesn't provide DPS.
Edited, Jun 7th 2009 1:05pm by CBD
1 stam = 0.3 AP.
But yeah, ArP is probably still better 1 for 1.
Neither is something you're going do try and get though they're just nice to haves.
But yeah, ArP is probably still better 1 for 1.
Neither is something you're going do try and get though they're just nice to haves.
I tend to value stamina a bit higher than ArP because it affects two different areas and scales with raid buffs. And it definitely has a place in hunter gear especially when a hunter is learning a new encounter, the extra AP is icing on the cake.
ArP on the other hand, while boosting damage a bit more, seems to get less useful in a raid sitiation and that bugs me probably more than it should. Although if ArP plays nice with armor debuffs now I may gain a higher opinion of it.
[small]Gah, phone battery dying. <.<[/small]
ArP on the other hand, while boosting damage a bit more, seems to get less useful in a raid sitiation and that bugs me probably more than it should. Although if ArP plays nice with armor debuffs now I may gain a higher opinion of it.
[small]Gah, phone battery dying. <.<[/small]
ArP gives more dps and it's been buffed so I value it higher than stam, but as I said all in all neither one is a stat worth stacking.
#12REDACTED,
Posted: Jun 07 2009 at 2:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah, because Stamina definitely negates enough damage to warrant it being useful when mobs one shot you anyways, right?
Yuppley wrote:
Quote:
I tend to value stamina a bit higher than ArP because it affects two different areas and scales with raid buffs. And it definitely has a place in hunter gear especially when a hunter is learning a new encounter, the extra AP is icing on the cake.
ArP on the other hand, while boosting damage a bit more, seems to get less useful in a raid sitiation and that bugs me probably more than it should. Although if ArP plays nice with armor debuffs now I may gain a higher opinion of it
ArP on the other hand, while boosting damage a bit more, seems to get less useful in a raid sitiation and that bugs me probably more than it should. Although if ArP plays nice with armor debuffs now I may gain a higher opinion of it
Yeah, because Stamina definitely negates enough damage to warrant it being useful when mobs one shot you anyways, right?
Do you see where it is on her list?
Do you see how it's only just above the stats that do ******** for hunters or can't be found on their gear without gemming or enchanting for it?
Do you see how in the explanation for yellow colors she says it comes on the gear but isn't worth gemming and enchanting for?
Adds and the extra little bits of AoE damage you take shouldn't be killing you in one hit anyway. Stop being difficult.
Oh, I'm sorry, I guess that I'm just imagining where it says:
Edited, Jun 7th 2009 7:49pm by Yuppley
Quote:
Intellect (especially with talents)
Stamina* (especially with talents)
Yellow-green: Still good, but situational. Gear for it, but enchant and gem better stats.
Stamina* (especially with talents)
Yellow-green: Still good, but situational. Gear for it, but enchant and gem better stats.
Edited, Jun 7th 2009 7:49pm by Yuppley
Yuppley wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry, I guess that I'm just imagining where it says:
Quote:
Intellect (especially with talents)
Stamina* (especially with talents)
Yellow-green: Still good, but situational. Gear for it, but enchant and gem better stats.
Stamina* (especially with talents)
Yellow-green: Still good, but situational. Gear for it, but enchant and gem better stats.
Then your original response makes even less sense because it's pretty obvious.
What she said means "Sometimes the AP bonus from stamina will make one piece of gear better than another. Don't ignore that bonus just because it comes from stamina." Not "THIS GEAR HAS 70 STAMINA THAT MEANS ITS BETTER THAN THE 35 AGILITY UR DOIN IT WRONG."
Edited, Jun 9th 2009 3:39am by CBD
Ok time to stop the pointless arguing.
And some funny news:
MM BiS dps:
Stacking ArP ftw? >.>
Edit to note that stacking ArP is NOT a good idea until you get both really good gear and some ArP trinkets as well as go MM to make the most out of it.
Edited, Jun 9th 2009 11:28am by Aethien
And some funny news:
MM BiS dps:
Drakbak on EJ forums wrote:
Marksmanship Build: Spreadsheet version 89e
Hunter DPS 7422.3
Pet DPS 1060.03
Total DPS 8482.33
Race: Orc
Professions: JC/BS
Spec: 7/57/7
Pet: Wolf
Battle Elixir: Elixir of Armor Piercing
Guardian Elixir: Elixir of Mighty Thoughts
Food: Hearty Rhino
NOTE: The spreadsheet is currently bugged and will not count the ArP rating from Hearty Rhino nor Elixir of Armor Piercing. In order to receive the effect, you need to Hand Adjust these on the gear tab for a combined 85 ArP rating.
Glyphs:
Glyph of Serpent Sting
Glyph of Steady Shot
Glyph of the Hawk
Rotation Priority:
Serpent Sting
Silencing Shot
Kill Shot
Chimera Shot
Aimed Shot
Blood Fury
Rapid Fire
Readiness
Steady Shot
Main Hand: [Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned] - Massacre (Two Hand)
Head: [Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece] - Arcanum of Torment - Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi) - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Neck: [Broach of the Wailing Night]
Shoulders: [Iron-studded Mantle] - Greater Inscription of the Axe
Back: [Drape of the Faceless General] - Major Agility - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP) - Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)
Chest : [Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic] - Powerful Stats - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP) - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Wrist: [Fluxing Energy Coils] - Greater Assault - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP) - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Hands: [Gloves of the Fiery Behemoth] - Major Agility - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Waist: [Belt of the Betrayed] - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Legs: [Legguards of Cunning Deception] - Icescale Leg Armor - Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP) - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP) - Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)
Feet: [Boots of the Renewed Flight] - Superior Agility
Ring: [Brann's Sealing Ring] - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Ring: [Brann's Signet Ring] - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Trinket: [Dark Matter]
Trinket: [Mjolnir Runestone]
Ranged Weapon: [Skyforge Crossbow] - Heartseeker Scope
Ammo: [Saronite Razorheads]
Hunter DPS 7422.3
Pet DPS 1060.03
Total DPS 8482.33
Race: Orc
Professions: JC/BS
Spec: 7/57/7
Pet: Wolf
Battle Elixir: Elixir of Armor Piercing
Guardian Elixir: Elixir of Mighty Thoughts
Food: Hearty Rhino
NOTE: The spreadsheet is currently bugged and will not count the ArP rating from Hearty Rhino nor Elixir of Armor Piercing. In order to receive the effect, you need to Hand Adjust these on the gear tab for a combined 85 ArP rating.
Glyphs:
Glyph of Serpent Sting
Glyph of Steady Shot
Glyph of the Hawk
Rotation Priority:
Serpent Sting
Silencing Shot
Kill Shot
Chimera Shot
Aimed Shot
Blood Fury
Rapid Fire
Readiness
Steady Shot
Main Hand: [Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned] - Massacre (Two Hand)
Head: [Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece] - Arcanum of Torment - Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi) - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Neck: [Broach of the Wailing Night]
Shoulders: [Iron-studded Mantle] - Greater Inscription of the Axe
Back: [Drape of the Faceless General] - Major Agility - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP) - Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)
Chest : [Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic] - Powerful Stats - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP) - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Wrist: [Fluxing Energy Coils] - Greater Assault - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP) - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Hands: [Gloves of the Fiery Behemoth] - Major Agility - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Waist: [Belt of the Betrayed] - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Legs: [Legguards of Cunning Deception] - Icescale Leg Armor - Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP) - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP) - Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)
Feet: [Boots of the Renewed Flight] - Superior Agility
Ring: [Brann's Sealing Ring] - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Ring: [Brann's Signet Ring] - Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)
Trinket: [Dark Matter]
Trinket: [Mjolnir Runestone]
Ranged Weapon: [Skyforge Crossbow] - Heartseeker Scope
Ammo: [Saronite Razorheads]
Stacking ArP ftw? >.>
Edit to note that stacking ArP is NOT a good idea until you get both really good gear and some ArP trinkets as well as go MM to make the most out of it.
Edited, Jun 9th 2009 11:28am by Aethien
Quote:
Stacking ArP ftw? >.>
Edit to note that stacking ArP is NOT a good idea until you get both really good gear and some ArP trinkets as well as go MM to make the most out of it.
Edit to note that stacking ArP is NOT a good idea until you get both really good gear and some ArP trinkets as well as go MM to make the most out of it.
I read somewhere (can't remember where) that once you reach 100% reduction from ArP that it will actually put mobs in the negative somehow and that's why it can actually be a great dps stat. Does anyone know if this is true or not?
With all the ArP that Ulduar gear gives and stacking ArP it probably wouldn't be to hard to get to that 100% mark.
You can get into negative armor with ArP right now but I think they're planning to impose a cap to prevent that.
CBD, I just want to remind you of what you said to me. Yeah, isn't it weird how all of the top DPS builds are stacking ArP now?
Edit: Lol someone has a grudge!
Edited, Jun 29th 2009 6:56pm by Yuppley
Edit: Lol someone has a grudge!
Edited, Jun 29th 2009 6:56pm by Yuppley
Yuppley wrote:
CBD, I just want to remind you of what you said to me. Yeah, isn't it weird how all of the top DPS builds are stacking ArP now?
Edit: Lol someone has a grudge!
Edit: Lol someone has a grudge!
What are you talking about? The discovery of ArP stacking doesn't change any statement that isyris or I made. Did you want us to see the future and notice that ArP stacking would be best after a certain level of ArP and bump it up to the top of the list?
You teach people the general rule first, and then you teach them the exceptions. ArP stacking is good when hunters can switch to MM, which isn't even until at least Ulduar gear. There's still no reason for a heroic or Naxx level hunter to be getting as much ArP as possible.
PS. I didn't touch your karma, sweetums. Don't throw out baseless accusations, it's not very intelligent.
Quote:
Did you want us to see the future and notice that ArP stacking would be best after a certain level of ArP and bump it up to the top of the list?
You could've at least made the assumption that it's possible for it to change.
Quote:
PS. I didn't touch your karma, sweetums. Don't throw out baseless accusations, it's not very intelligent.
Sorry, I didn't mean you. I was getting karma camped in other threads too.
Yuppley wrote:
You could've at least made the assumption that it's possible for it to change.
It's possible for any stat to change in the future. They could somehow make a BM hunter stacking haste do 12.5k DPS in BiS T9 hard mode Icecrown gear. Her list still stands accurate for any non-Ulduar geared/non-MM hunter.
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