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#77 Jul 10 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Default
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Theo wrote:
That you're using Blood in PvP is testament to how utterly bad you are.

BTW, I hit like a truck against plate (hit a 4k Mut tonight on a ret pally with no wings).

Edit: and my gear is pretty sh*tty, too. 2800 AP, 23% crit.

You're just bad.


I have 3530 AP and I don't hit ret pallys that hard regularly unless they have 16-17k hp (Which means mostly blues with no pvp gear). And yes, I do play blood in BG's. I wouldn't do that in arena if I decided to play that, obviously. Are you saying Theo being "Good" allows him to hit harder then someone who has 800 more attack? Get real rofl.

theo wrote:
You're a @#%^ing idiot if you think HKs = honor earned.

WG dailys every day since WotLK was released. Oshi, whaaaat?

6-7k a day = lolhonor.

FYI, if you sit through a pally stun, you're a @#%^ing ******.

I 100-0 pallys.


Mmhmm, considering in a future post I looked at his armory and noticed he only had 14 WG wins done, and others on the same server as him were sitting at 60~+

Myteddy wrote:
I personally crit Korz earlier for 3500 MH.


I think you smoke @#%^ing crack.



Average crits are well over 2k for me.




Honestly, I think you are pulling those numbers out of your ***.


Don't make me go in a bg and start taking screens. That's just gonna have to **** me off signing up for another photobucket account.


I posted a pic of him hitting my 0 resilience DK for 1100. Nice average 2k.

I got rated to sub-default even when I provided evidence, and Teddy gets rated up to excellent even when I prove he's talking sh*t.

See how things work?

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 2:04am by Zafire
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#78 Jul 10 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread is full of win. It makes me glad Theo is back in some degree at least.

Not that I am taking sides. I just like to read a good flame. Helps my work day go by.

Carry on.
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#79 Jul 10 2009 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Zafire wrote:
theo wrote:
You're a @#%^ing idiot if you think HKs = honor earned.

WG dailys every day since WotLK was released. Oshi, whaaaat?

6-7k a day = lolhonor.

FYI, if you sit through a pally stun, you're a @#%^ing ******.

I 100-0 pallys.


Mmhmm, considering in a future post I looked at his armory and noticed he only had 14 WG wins done, and others on the same server as him were sitting at 60~+

You really think that you need to win every WG to get 6-7k honor a day?

WG wins has nothing to do with honor earned, just like HKs don't have anything to do with it.

Congrats on being stupid, Zafire.
#80 Jul 13 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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So, I can't sleep figured I'd make an nice herbal infusion, maybe check up on the rogue forums and BLAMO. A new thread of win.

Thanks guys, you're really making these wee hours far more entertaining. Smiley: popcorn


Oh, and big ups to Thomas, Feyrasdgsoiings and Theo. Let's all have a drink and a hug! You guys are too kind =)
#81 Jul 14 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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To get this thread back on track...

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Argent+Dawn&n=Lineli

I got several upgrades, really I'm just trying to show off. I should have 4pT8 shortly(read:this week).
#82 Jul 14 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
Congrats on your upgrades Smiley: smile. I have yet to get her into a raid, and it's bumming me out. Then again, I don't have awesome gear, but with the dps I've been putting out, I should be okay enough to get at least into Naxx. /sigh oh well.
#83 Jul 21 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Just hit 80 very recently - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Firetree&n=Maximogue

I'm in a random guild, but I don't think they raid. I'm going to gear up solo for a while and do Naxx pugs when I can.

Right now I'm working on Argent Tournament for dagger, Sons of Hodir for shoulder enchant, Knights of Ebon Blade for helm enchant and chest piece. I'll probably put double mongoose on my daggers for a while. I'm saving emblems for mirror of truth first, and plan on buying that level 80 blue ring for 1 slot, and the epic JC ring and neck when I get some more gold.

I have a pretty good idea of the direction I want to take while gearing up, it just takes time and some gold. Right now it looks bad though lol. I put a weapon chain on my shanker because I was going to do some PVP, but decided against that for now lol. So that will get replaced with mongoose soon, but first I'd like to buy a few more items.
#84 Jul 21 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Mike, your hit is a little low (even for mutilate). I would suggest running Heroic Nexus for the trinket that drops out of there.

Also, Heroic Gundrak drops a ring and legs, so I would run that daily. The Fleshshaper drops in Heroic HoS, and is a pretty decent dagger.

Other than that, your spec looks like everyone elses, so you seem to be fine.

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#85 Jul 21 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Fleshshaper looks nice, I'll try to get some runs together for that. After some reading on rogue forums I consistently read that yellow hit > ap = agility > spell (poison) hit > crit = haste etc..

That might be paraphrasing too much, but the basic point was after capping specials at 99 hit rating, it's better to gem for AP or agility, so I regemmed for AP (since it was cheaper :P). As long as I stay above 99 hit rating I won't gem for it.
#86 Jul 21 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Meh, I've always tried to stay above 250 hit rating. 315 is the poison cap, and I was over it one time. It was pretty nice, but there wasn't a huge decrease in damage when it dropped.

However, I did see a pretty nice increase between 100ish hit to 250ish hit.
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It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein

Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.


PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
#87 Jul 21 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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HfB Mut is:

Yellow hit> Exp cap > Poison hit (you WANT this, no exceptions, you get a ton of damage from poisons) > AP > Crit.
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#88 Jul 21 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know, from the rogue stickies on the o-boards, to the rogue FAQ on elitist jerks, they all say basically the same thing. I know I'm the new rogue here and you guys are more experienced, and I probably suck at doing the cycles, etc but

Q: Which stats are good for Mutilate?
A: Yellow Hit > AP = Agi > Expertise > Spell Hit > Crit > Haste > ArPen > White Hit > Strength

From - http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t54257-3_1_rogue_faq_if_youre_new_ish_here_read_before_posting_updated_6_20_09_a/


I know poisons do alot of damage, I'm sure the theorycrafters over elitist jerks know the same thing, but maybe you're neglecting the damage from pure melee damage and mutilate?

I can't find any definitive rogue source that says poison hit cap is more important then agility or attack power, for any spec.
#89 Jul 21 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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@#%^ me i had a post written. Oh well


You said no definitive source but linked the

A: Yellow Hit > AP = Agi > Expertise > Spell Hit > Crit > Haste > ArPen > White Hit > Strength



Ej is definitive.


On that scale, AP/AGI is higher, because hitting the Exp cap is a joke. You will hit it with 2-3 peices with Exp on it. You just want to make sure you stay near that cap.


I'll add, that dont get Poison hit cap confused with hit cap. It is all the same thing. So, having hit high enough to get to the poison cap (all this means is you have enough hit your poisons are never missing) your melee hit is going to be doing well. This is all increasing your melee AND poison hit chances. So, not only are you seeing dps increase from poisons landing, but also from the increase chance for white hits.

Edited, Jul 21st 2009 11:15am by MYteddy
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#90 Jul 21 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Ej is definitive.


So MyTeddy > EJ and rogue stickies, gotcha
#91 Jul 21 2009 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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EJ has a lot of solid information. The spreadsheets are a great simulation to what you should gear/enchant/etc for.

However, sometimes the numbers are off, and sometimes the numbers are different depending on which spreadsheet you use.

I've read their threads about hit for mutilate, and plugged in my gear on the spreadsheets. I'm not an idiot, so keeping my rotations going on Patchwerk/Target dummies is easy. My dps is close to what the spreadsheets say it should be.

Like I said, I personally have seen an increase in my dps when my hit is over 250ish. When it was 315+ it was a tad bit higher, but not enough for me to freak out about it when I got my last upgrade and my hit dropped.

Quick story. When I was on Proudmoore, there was a female that played a rogue in my guild. She had better gear than me because I was off leveling other alts instead of raiding. I increased her dps by 500 by finding out she was using dual Deadly instead of Instant/Deadly. I know that is a tad bit different, but poisons are a HUGE amount of our dps. Why wouldn't you want to make sure they don't miss?

People can simulate all day long, but the fact is RNG is a ****. You never know what will hit or miss, but if you know that you have the cap to not miss, than you're good.
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Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.


PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
#92 Jul 21 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I could regem hit, but I'd lose a little DPS by doing so.

Until specials cap, hit rating is weighted at 2.3 with agility being 2.0, but after specials cap hit falls to 1.8. Considering gems might make up only ~5% of my total attack power, and hit is 90% as good at agility which is equal to attack power, I might only lose 0.5% DPS or so. But it's still a DPS loss, because attack power boosts all damage dealt, poisons and envenom included, to the point it's worth missing a few attacks (which are pretty rare) for the rest of your attacks to hit harder.

A very watered down example would be hitting 100% of attacks for 880 or hitting 95% of attacks for 980


Which comes out to 88,000 damage over 100 attacks vs. 93,100 damage over 100 attacks with 5 misses


In the end the difference is small but agility/AP are better, until proven otherwise I may sound stubborn but I'll stick with elitistjerks and o-boards knowledge.

Now you might take that 95% hit argument and spin it saying a bad RNG run you wind up missing 80% of attacks over a given fight, etc.. but I could scale the number to 92% hit at 1079 damage or whatever else. The point is more it's acceptable to miss a few attacks for all the rest of your attacks to hit harder. Maybe very occasionally you will have a bad RNG run and the hit rating crowd can say SEE? TOLD YOU SO!, but the rest of the time the AP or agi stackers in equivalent gear with equivalent rotations will have the edge. You can just as easily have a perfect RNG run under the hit cap where you never miss over a whole fight, so using the argument that RNG can fail them and drop them even further below their undercapped hit isn't really valid.

Edited, Jul 21st 2009 3:55pm by mikelolol
#93 Jul 21 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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mikelolol wrote:
I could regem hit, but I'd lose a little DPS by doing so.





Your logic is wrong. Regemming hit is going to increase your dps, that's what people are trying to tell you. You may lose a little AP, but your poison dmg will more than make up for it. If you only have 104 hit rating right now, your melee miss rate is probably well over 20%. Take a look at a recent WWS. I had 309 hit, ~3200 AP unbuffed, 32% crit... and notice my melee swing miss rate was 16%. If you think you can raid with around 100 hit rating and stack AP to make up for it, you are wrong. Also note how much damage IP does...18%, right a whopping 20,000 dmg less than mutilate. Poison dmg is a massive part of your dps, and gimping hit is gimping dps.

And getting advice from the o-boards is as rewarding as killing a kitten.

Edited, Jul 21st 2009 8:55pm by ThomasMagnum
#94 Jul 21 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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ThomasMagnum wrote:
And getting advice from the o-boards is as rewarding as killing a kitten.


QFT.

I was going to say something about it earlier, but I don't feel like arguing over this. If he wants to believe low hit=more dps, let him.

I'm tired of arguing with people that think they're right all the time. Don't ask for input if you know you're doing everything right, imo.
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Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.


PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
#95 Jul 21 2009 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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ThomasMagnum wrote:
mikelolol wrote:
I could regem hit, but I'd lose a little DPS by doing so.





Your logic is wrong. Regemming hit is going to increase your dps, that's what people are trying to tell you. You may lose a little AP, but your poison dmg will more than make up for it. If you only have 104 hit rating right now, your melee miss rate is probably well over 20%. Take a look at a recent WWS. I had 309 hit, ~3200 AP unbuffed, 32% crit... and notice my melee swing miss rate was 16%. If you think you can raid with around 100 hit rating and stack AP to make up for it, you are wrong. Also note how much damage IP does...18%, right a whopping 20,000 dmg less than mutilate. Poison dmg is a massive part of your dps, and gimping hit is gimping dps.

And getting advice from the o-boards is as rewarding as killing a kitten.

Edited, Jul 21st 2009 8:55pm by ThomasMagnum


Following along those lines, your #1 damaging source is melee swings, you missed 16% of them, are you going to run off and regem for white hit cap? What is it, 689 hit rating? Since your #1 source of damage is missing so often and all, you should regem and regear right?



.....Of course not

You realize some attacks can miss but you can still make up for them with higher AP/agi/crit/arpen.

Why so quick to dismiss the sticky on o-boards, and the other on elitistjerks? I realize being hit capped was a big deal in TBC but times have changed.

Obviously my rogue isn't raid ready yet, more hit rating will come on gear. But to me this post said it best (OMG O BOARDS INCOMING)

Quote:
Part II – Stats



Before we get into early raiding, here's what you need to know about your class: There are 6 Stats that will increase your DPS in one way or another:

- Attack Power (AP),
- Hit Rating,
- Crit Rating,
- Expertise,
- Haste and
- Armor Penetration



Agility provides 1 AP, 0.012% Crit, some armor & dodge (both irrelevant); Strength provides 1 AP per point.

For these stats "higher is better" applies at all times - there is no situation in which having a lower score is better than having a higher score. 2 notes however: Hit Rating & Expertise have a cap, which means that at one point you will stop missing, rendering more Hit Rating useless; and one point at which mobs won't be able to dodge you anymore (mobs *can* dodge from behind, players can't), at which point more expertise is useless. A cap isn't necessarily something to aim for, it's just something to not surpass if you can at all avoid it (as you’d be wasting stats at that point).

The second part is as important: There are no magic numbers.
There is no fixed value in any stat that you have to have. Always take the item which gives you more DPS, no matter what the actual stats on it are (with the footnote that exceeding a hit/expertise cap won't provide more DPS). You do not have to reach any Hit Rating magical cap, and trying to do so while gimping your other stats means you’re being an idiot (that means you could just stop being one any time you wish btw).

Rating conversions can be found at the wowwiki.com page ( http://www.wowwiki.com/Combat_rating_system ), or you can download RatingBuster which will put them into the item tooltip in-game ( http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/rating-buster.aspx )




....................


Rules of thumb:
- Don't drop below special attack hitcap (66 or 99); beyond that stack Whatever Works Best™, which will usually be Agility or straight AP. There is no “1 true list” of stat ranking, technically you could break it down to ~40 primary and secondary/derived stats for the 3 raidbuilds, and they all rank somewhere between ~1 AP and ~2 AP, depending on what exactly your build is, what your other stats are (ie: your gear) and what exactly happens in a fight.

Generally speaking (without considering builds!):
- Strong Stats: Hit Rating (Specials Cap) > AP ~Agility
- Average Stats: Expertise ~ Hit Rating (Poison Cap) > Crit Rating ~ Armor Penetration ~ Haste Rating
- Weak Stat: Hit Rating (above Poison Cap) – yeah, it’s really kind of crappy


#96 Jul 21 2009 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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What about Poisons being a large portion of your raid damage, and the importance of being POISON hit capped is hard?


And to answer your question, to max hit, it isn't worth the AEP investment, since once you have poisons never missing, going into AP/AGI has better values, like you are arguing.

Edited, Jul 21st 2009 8:38pm by MYteddy
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#97 Jul 22 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a dummy and posted something a dummy would post. Dismiss post.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2009 5:48pm by ThomasMagnum
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