Ok so I have a baby DK . I primarily farm herbs when I play her and sit in LFG.
She is using a 36/0/20 spec for now. With the points in Unholy to get the mount speed boost and the BCB as a what the heck sort of thing. I like the Blood play style. As Frost doesn't appeal to me and I hate using a pet.
Anyway, I have a fine grasp of what my priorities are for both tanking and DPS. The questions I have is two-fold.
1) I use DC a lot so I have the DC glyph. I'm lost for my other one. I've been using the DS one as it was cheap when I bought it but I DC weave so I know I could do better for a glyph. I'm think Pestilence for when I tank which is roughly 75% of time I do an instance.
2) Should I get UB next or keep charging down Blood for HS? I know at my level I could have HS but as I said for farming OaPH rocks. Getting out of BCB is fine but I need OaPH and will be Blood as I can't stand using a pet and Unholy is the pet spec. Would the tanking utility of UB be worth the extra level to get HS? I have yet to have any real threat issues that don't relate to the every DPS pick a random target or unload with big guns on big pulls right away mentality.
Thanks
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Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
HS. 100% HS.
It is the bread-and-butter attack for Blood. Getting it as early as possible should be a VERY high priority. If you are willing to respec, I'd go at least to HS and grab Imp DS. Actually, I'd go all the way through Blood and work on the Unholy tree as an afterthought.
You are having problems with your second glyph because you have really avoided all of the tree-defining talents, which are what glyphs tend to boost.
The pest glyph is pretty glitchy right now, too, from what I hear.
If you are willing to respec, I'll try and help you find a new build. Otherwise, just head down to Heart Strike and grab the IT or PS glyph.
It is the bread-and-butter attack for Blood. Getting it as early as possible should be a VERY high priority. If you are willing to respec, I'd go at least to HS and grab Imp DS. Actually, I'd go all the way through Blood and work on the Unholy tree as an afterthought.
You are having problems with your second glyph because you have really avoided all of the tree-defining talents, which are what glyphs tend to boost.
The pest glyph is pretty glitchy right now, too, from what I hear.
If you are willing to respec, I'll try and help you find a new build. Otherwise, just head down to Heart Strike and grab the IT or PS glyph.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
If you are willing to respec, I'll try and help you find a new build.
I would totally go all Blood then dip into Unholy if I didn't want the speed boost for farming which is the DKs main job.
Will try and grab the IT glyph then unless the PS one becomes unbugged with this patch.
Kind of figured diving for HS would make most sense. May get out of BCB to make it happen sooner.
Now that I think I will drop BCB and get more Blood stuff.
Is SD still crap? Otherwise how good is ImpBP? The bloodworms look stupid when I see others use them so I'm not really into them. VB could be cool for tanking. ImpDS will be hawt I imagine.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
I personally like Bloodworms, they are the only heal that is also a DpS increase. And I feel like the proc rate is high enough that I usually had them up.
Vendetta is good if you kill fast.
Sudden Death is a talent I really like, but it isn't THAT good. You have a 15% chance on every Heart Strike to launch a free Death Coil. Considering you will have 4-8 HSs per rotation, that is anything from a 60-120% chance to launch a free one. Nice in my opinion, ESPECIALLY if you have Morbidity AND Dark Death.
Imp BP is okay. But, it isn't as good as you first think it is. It makes your DSs give 11% health, instead of 10. You will turn 4.4% of damage into health. Nothing that impressive, and almost useless when not in BP.
Imp DS will be great, as you thought it would.
VB is decent. Pop it and use two DSs and you'll get 27% of your health, just in that one small cycle. Add in the next refresh's DSs and the rest of your heals and it can be worth it. But, RT can be good too for leveling.
Vendetta is good if you kill fast.
Sudden Death is a talent I really like, but it isn't THAT good. You have a 15% chance on every Heart Strike to launch a free Death Coil. Considering you will have 4-8 HSs per rotation, that is anything from a 60-120% chance to launch a free one. Nice in my opinion, ESPECIALLY if you have Morbidity AND Dark Death.
Imp BP is okay. But, it isn't as good as you first think it is. It makes your DSs give 11% health, instead of 10. You will turn 4.4% of damage into health. Nothing that impressive, and almost useless when not in BP.
Imp DS will be great, as you thought it would.
VB is decent. Pop it and use two DSs and you'll get 27% of your health, just in that one small cycle. Add in the next refresh's DSs and the rest of your heals and it can be worth it. But, RT can be good too for leveling.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
idiggory wrote:
Sudden Death is a talent I really like, but it isn't THAT good. You have a 15% chance on every Heart Strike to launch a free Death Coil. Considering you will have 4-8 HSs per rotation, that is anything from a 60-120% chance to launch a free one.
I'm sorry, I have to address this. Each individual HS has a 15% chance to proc Sudden Doom. These chances DO NOT stack like that. First HS=15%. Second HS=15%. Third HS=15%. If I use HS 8 times, I could get 8 SD procs, or 0, or some number in between.
Horsemouth, I would highly recommend committing to either full Blood or full Unholy. You are by no means required to get perma-ghoul if you don't like using pets. I do have to say that the perma-ghoul doesn't need to be micromanaged like a hunter/warlock pet. (Death Knights aren't as squishy as a warlock.) Just set it to Defensive and ignore it, or you could macro [petattack] whatever ability you open with (like Icy Touch). I will say that having a ranged stun can be useful...
idiggory wrote:
You are having problems with your second glyph because you have really avoided all of the tree-defining talents, which are what glyphs tend to boost.
QFT. You're missing out on the really juicy talents. From Blood, you're missing Heart Strike, Improved Death Strike,Sudden Doom, Might of Mograine, Blood Gorged, and Dancing Rune Weapon. From Unholy, you're missing Unholy Blight, Impurity, Crypt Fever/Ebon Plaguebringer, Bone Shield, Scourge Strike, Wandering Plague, Rage of Rivendare, and Summon Gargoyle.
If you really like having OaPH, try out full Unholy for a bit, see if you like it. As I said, you're not required to get Master of Ghouls, especially if you're not trying to min-max this character.
With all that in mind, play what you enjoy! :D
When you look at SD for ONE HS, assuming a hit, we get:
15% chance of DC proc.
85% chance of no DC proc.
This is constant, yes. One HS will always have these odds.
However, the comment was not speaking of the chance to get one PER HS (in that your 8th HS didn't have a 120% chance to proc one), it was the probability of getting one in a group.
So, if I have a 15% chance to get one for each strike, and I'm just looking at a pool of, say, 5 strikes:
HS1- 15%
HS2- 15%
HS3- 15%
HS4- 15%
HS5- 15% +
Total chance to get "A DC PROC" (A means one): 75%, in 5 attempts.
That isn't say that the chance INCREASES with failures. On the contrary, it decreases because one strike has no bearing on the next (I presume).
So, when you fail on the first one, if you reduce the pool to the next four (which you shouldn't do, because it makes your previous study useless), there is a 60% probability one of them will get a DC proc.
That is because these chances don't influence each other, so they are additive.
And a 120% chance may seem awesome, but you could still not get a single proc on in eight. It is just unlikely.
You are right--the chance to get a proc never increases. But, if you're looking for the chance to get a single proc from a pool of HSs, you get much better odds.
Though I should say here that it has been a while since I had stats, so I could be wrong. But this is what I remember: if the probability of one doesn't change the probability of the following action, then you add them.
Edited, Jun 5th 2009 10:41am by idiggory
15% chance of DC proc.
85% chance of no DC proc.
This is constant, yes. One HS will always have these odds.
However, the comment was not speaking of the chance to get one PER HS (in that your 8th HS didn't have a 120% chance to proc one), it was the probability of getting one in a group.
So, if I have a 15% chance to get one for each strike, and I'm just looking at a pool of, say, 5 strikes:
HS1- 15%
HS2- 15%
HS3- 15%
HS4- 15%
HS5- 15% +
Total chance to get "A DC PROC" (A means one): 75%, in 5 attempts.
That isn't say that the chance INCREASES with failures. On the contrary, it decreases because one strike has no bearing on the next (I presume).
So, when you fail on the first one, if you reduce the pool to the next four (which you shouldn't do, because it makes your previous study useless), there is a 60% probability one of them will get a DC proc.
That is because these chances don't influence each other, so they are additive.
And a 120% chance may seem awesome, but you could still not get a single proc on in eight. It is just unlikely.
You are right--the chance to get a proc never increases. But, if you're looking for the chance to get a single proc from a pool of HSs, you get much better odds.
Though I should say here that it has been a while since I had stats, so I could be wrong. But this is what I remember: if the probability of one doesn't change the probability of the following action, then you add them.
Edited, Jun 5th 2009 10:41am by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
The chance likelihood to launch a DC for free is calculated thusly:
.15=Chance to launch Free DC
.85=Chance to not launch Free DC
Statical likelihood of launching a free DC:
1-(.85^x) where x is the number of HS.
The likelihood for 4 HS it would be:
1-(.85^4) = 1-(.522) = .478 or 47.8% likelihood to 1 launch free DC from 4 HS.
likelihood != Chance
Chance is independent of previous events and remains a constant 15%.
edit: fixed inconsistent terms and poor construction
Edited, Jun 5th 2009 11:02am by BakaShinobi
.15=Chance to launch Free DC
.85=Chance to not launch Free DC
Statical likelihood of launching a free DC:
1-(.85^x) where x is the number of HS.
The likelihood for 4 HS it would be:
1-(.85^4) = 1-(.522) = .478 or 47.8% likelihood to 1 launch free DC from 4 HS.
likelihood != Chance
Chance is independent of previous events and remains a constant 15%.
edit: fixed inconsistent terms and poor construction
Edited, Jun 5th 2009 11:02am by BakaShinobi
Quote:
The chance likelihood to launch a DC for free is calculated thusly:
.15=Chance to launch Free DC
.85=Chance to not launch Free DC
Statical likelihood of launching a free DC:
1-(.85^x) where x is the number of HS.
The likelihood for 4 HS it would be:
1-(.85^4) = 1-(.522) = .478 or 47.8% likelihood to 1 launch free DC from 4 HS.
likelihood != Chance
Chance is independent of previous events and remains a constant 15%.
edit: fixed inconsistent terms and poor construction
.15=Chance to launch Free DC
.85=Chance to not launch Free DC
Statical likelihood of launching a free DC:
1-(.85^x) where x is the number of HS.
The likelihood for 4 HS it would be:
1-(.85^4) = 1-(.522) = .478 or 47.8% likelihood to 1 launch free DC from 4 HS.
likelihood != Chance
Chance is independent of previous events and remains a constant 15%.
edit: fixed inconsistent terms and poor construction
Okay, right. Because all four events cap out at probability 1 together. I was thinking about this earlier, but couldn't remember how to actually fix it (which is how I got 120%).
Question. Do we do .85^4 because we are subtracting the chance to not proc it for all 4? Is this because we are seeking the likelihood of getting at least 1 SD proc?
So, if I added up:
.85^4 through the 1st power
.15^4 through the 1st power.
Would it equal 1? That would take into account all possible scenarios, no? But, how would you tabulate getting no SD procs, or all of them? You can't do the probability to the power of 0, or that would equal 1...
(The fact that my Stats teacher was horrible is clearly showing. We used to go to other teachers for help because she didn't know the subject).
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Sorry, I didn't explain clearly enough.
.85^4 is equal to probability of getting 0 Free DC's.
.15^4 is equal to the probability of getting only 4 free DC
It's missing the probability of getting exactly 1 free DC, exactly 2 free DC, and exactly 3 free DC. (I don't remember the formula's for these exactly, sorry)
1-.85^.4 is the chance of getting AT LEAST 1 free DC.
Sorry again for not being terribly clear.
Edit: The formulas for the hit and misses go like this:
Exactly 1 hit
.85^3*.15^1*4(number of different combinations)
Exactly 2 hits
.85^2*.15^2*6(number of different combinations)
Exactly 3 hits
.85^1*.15^3*4(number of different combinations)
Add ALL of the results for each possible outcome up and you will get 1, I can't remember the base formula, sorry.
The best way to think of it is as a 'tree' of events.
Edited, Jun 5th 2009 1:46pm by BakaShinobi
.85^4 is equal to probability of getting 0 Free DC's.
.15^4 is equal to the probability of getting only 4 free DC
It's missing the probability of getting exactly 1 free DC, exactly 2 free DC, and exactly 3 free DC. (I don't remember the formula's for these exactly, sorry)
1-.85^.4 is the chance of getting AT LEAST 1 free DC.
Sorry again for not being terribly clear.
Edit: The formulas for the hit and misses go like this:
Exactly 1 hit
.85^3*.15^1*4(number of different combinations)
Exactly 2 hits
.85^2*.15^2*6(number of different combinations)
Exactly 3 hits
.85^1*.15^3*4(number of different combinations)
Add ALL of the results for each possible outcome up and you will get 1, I can't remember the base formula, sorry.
The best way to think of it is as a 'tree' of events.
Edited, Jun 5th 2009 1:46pm by BakaShinobi
Quote:
If you really like having OaPH, try out full Unholy for a bit, see if you like it.
I was Unholy a while ago and wasn't that into it plus I like the idea of Blood.
I did spec out of BCB to get me into ImpDS and VB. Haven't actually done anything to see an impact as all I have done is farm herbs since then. I do know that at my gear level BCB wasn't doing a high percentage of my DPS; DS, BS and DC are my work horses.
Another question.
How well do DC and DRW play with each other?
Also do any builds that utilize 2 trees DR mechanisms work at any gear level?
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
Sorry, I didn't explain clearly enough.
.85^4 is equal to probability of getting 0 Free DC's.
.15^4 is equal to the probability of getting only 4 free DC
It's missing the probability of getting exactly 1 free DC, exactly 2 free DC, and exactly 3 free DC. (I don't remember the formula's for these exactly, sorry)
1-.85^.4 is the chance of getting AT LEAST 1 free DC.
Sorry again for not being terribly clear.
.85^4 is equal to probability of getting 0 Free DC's.
.15^4 is equal to the probability of getting only 4 free DC
It's missing the probability of getting exactly 1 free DC, exactly 2 free DC, and exactly 3 free DC. (I don't remember the formula's for these exactly, sorry)
1-.85^.4 is the chance of getting AT LEAST 1 free DC.
Sorry again for not being terribly clear.
You were plenty clear, don't worry about it. If I hadn't forgotten everything from my stats class, it would have been much clearer. So, my bad.^^
[EDIT]
Quote:
How well do DC and DRW play with each other?
As far as I know, your DRW will mimic DCs for half damage. I believe it does not mimic SD procs, but I could be wrong (just icing on the cake if it does).
And, in theory, the two work together nicely. DRW absorbs all RP when used, so you are free to use any RP you gain while swinging (and, it is best to use DRW when you have ERW and possibly BT up), so you don't have to worry about running low on RP like you have to with the Garg. Actually, because it mimics attacks, your goal is to use as many of your resources as possible while it is up. And, since it has a separate threat meter from you, you only have to worry about the burst coming specifically from you.
Quote:
Also do any builds that utilize 2 trees DR mechanisms work at any gear level?
I haven't SEEN any that bother. The 5 abilities that spawn DRs, depending on build are (in best case-scenarios):
Blood- Oblit or DR, and they are used to get DRs from FUs so as to HS or BB.
Frost- BS and Pest, and they are used to get DRs from BRs so as to Oblit or HB.
Unholy- BS and Pest, and they are used to get DRs from BRs so as to SS or BB.
So, really, the DRs from another build are usually useless. A Frost DK doesn't care if their FU runes are DRs, because they use a FU ability anyway. Same thing for Unholy. Blood are the opposite--they don't need to use abilities to get BRs into DRs because their main build uses HSs instead.
And, while Blood could *possibly* benefit from it if, for some reason, your DS did more than 2 HSs, they would have to use BSs to get the runes. And I'd be willing to wager that 3 DSs + 2 BSs DpS < 2 DSs + 4HSs.
Edited, Jun 5th 2009 4:54pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Horsemouth, the only reason you're going into Unholy is for Pale Horse? Um, Unholy Presence is nearly the same speed boost. Stop gimping your damage and commit to a tree already!
There are experimental builds that use 2-tree Death Rune generation (hello IT spam!) but they're generally very specific to gear for.
Sudden Doom can proc from DRW unless that's been changed recently.
Be sure to AMS-soak as soon as you can after popping DRW. Having the cooldown off AMS before Bloodlust/Heroism is just as important as building the Death Runes or having Hysteria ready.
Happy hunting.
There are experimental builds that use 2-tree Death Rune generation (hello IT spam!) but they're generally very specific to gear for.
Sudden Doom can proc from DRW unless that's been changed recently.
Be sure to AMS-soak as soon as you can after popping DRW. Having the cooldown off AMS before Bloodlust/Heroism is just as important as building the Death Runes or having Hysteria ready.
Happy hunting.
Quote:
Horsemouth, the only reason you're going into Unholy is for Pale Horse? Um, Unholy Presence is nearly the same speed boost. Stop gimping your damage and commit to a tree already!
Doesn't OaPH only concern mounted speed, and Unholy Presence only concerns running speed?
Quote:
Be sure to AMS-soak as soon as you can after popping DRW. Having the cooldown off AMS before Bloodlust/Heroism is just as important as building the Death Runes or having Hysteria ready.
This may just be my brain not functioning properly... but why use AMS? (I'm assuming you are talking about Anti-Magic Shield here).
I ASSUME you want it for the damage > RP effect, but that is only a 2% conversion, takes 20 RP and requires it to be magical damage.
I could see it being useful in some fights, I guess, but it only lasts 5 seconds. I guess it would only take 1000 magical damage to gain back the RP (and most AoE effects will probably deal more than that). But if they aren't magical or happen to be used outside the 5 second window, it's just lost RP...
Does AMS refer to something else that I am missing? Is there some dimension to AMS that I don't know? I've only ever thought about the ability from a tank's perspective, and my goal with it is usually to maximize mitigation--the RP is only a bonus-- so I may not see where you are coming from.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Far as I can tell, I go faster on my mount when I pop Unholy Presence.
AMS soaking is a larger topic than I would want to infect this thread with. I'll post a new thread regarding it later (heading to alt raid soon). Suffice to say that it's not an insubstantial DPS increase when properly used and there are many excellent opportunities to do just that. Not to be over-looked in my opinion. Actually, I'm surprised we don't already have a thread on it!
AMS soaking is a larger topic than I would want to infect this thread with. I'll post a new thread regarding it later (heading to alt raid soon). Suffice to say that it's not an insubstantial DPS increase when properly used and there are many excellent opportunities to do just that. Not to be over-looked in my opinion. Actually, I'm surprised we don't already have a thread on it!
Quote:
Far as I can tell, I go faster on my mount when I pop Unholy Presence.
I'll respec when I learn Unholy Presence then only level 65 as of now. Not really leveling in a rush either.
Probably will go into this when I hit 70.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
Far as I can tell, I go faster on my mount when I pop Unholy Presence
I'd guess this is either a glitch, or they silently patched it in without updating the tooltip or posting.
I know I tried to notice a speed difference shortly after creating my DK and I couldn't. But I never installed a speed-detecting addon.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
id just like to say that sudden death DC procs work on both targets of heart strike. ive had it cleave my off target and get a proc on both targets, a proc on my main target, or a proc on the off-target. just a nice little extra aside.
Quote:
id just like to say that sudden death DC procs work on both targets of heart strike. ive had it cleave my off target and get a proc on both targets, a proc on my main target, or a proc on the off-target. just a nice little extra aside.
A double proc would be dead sexy...
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
idiggory wrote:
I know I tried to notice a speed difference shortly after creating my DK and I couldn't. But I never installed a speed-detecting addon.
I too didn't notice a speed change so I figured it was just running speed. I can tell the difference when I threw on a riding crop back in the TBC days but not with Unholy. Will install a speed addon to for sure.
Ok, I am at level 67. I still have a lot of the starter zone gear. Is this normal?
I'll be fine in Northrend right?
I think I should have quested more instead of tanking to level.
I'll be fine in Northrend right?
I think I should have quested more instead of tanking to level.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
Ok, I am at level 67. I still have a lot of the starter zone gear. Is this normal?
I'll be fine in Northrend right?
I think I should have quested more instead of tanking to level.
I'll be fine in Northrend right?
I think I should have quested more instead of tanking to level.
I can't remember how long I kept mine, but I'm pretty sure it was close to the end of OL, if it didn't actually make it to NR.
It is just way better than anything else. Especially because a lot of the plate rewards had spell power on them.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Ok, I am at level 67. I still have a lot of the starter zone gear. Is this normal?
I'll be fine in Northrend right?
I think I should have quested more instead of tanking to level.
I'll be fine in Northrend right?
I think I should have quested more instead of tanking to level.
I fnished OL in most all of my starting gear, it just wasn't worth it to play "Is it better? I think, by a little.."
I just powered to NR with a bloodied arcanite reaper and started getting gear there.
Cool. Just making sure this is normal. It seems weird that's all.
Side note Heart Strike is frigging sexy.
Side note Heart Strike is frigging sexy.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
Side note Heart Strike is frigging sexy.
Told you, lol.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
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