Blood tank build
I'm currently using this Blood spec to tank with but I have been having problems with AE happy casters and I am starting to consider switching to Frost. I know Blood has AE threat problems but I'm also a bit under geared since this is my offspec and I just started gearing up for it. While I understand better gear will help with threat, will it help with AE threat since it's mainly magic based?
Being way below the def cap, around 28K armor and roughly 25K HP unbuffed, I still have fairly decent survivability. I'm wondering how a Frost spec would hold up survivability wise against Blood and how it would compare to Bloods single target TPS.
Being a fairly casual player I'm not planning on doing current endgame content and I'm looking at the OT role more then the MT role.
I'll post an Armory later if I can remember to log out in my tank gear.
Edited, May 19th 2009 11:56am by Raolan
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Blood vs. Frost tankingFollow
DnD - IT - PS - Pest should keep mobs off your casters. I also loved BB spam but that takes a second to really get AoE threat going.
Frost has the advantage (currently) of being able to start right off with Howling Blast-BBx2 when glyphed but I found either to be fine for AoE threat in heroics.
edit: Forgot to mention that if the casters are trigger happy, let one die on purpose then ask them to wait a couple of seconds next time or else. DPS are responsible to do as much damage as their threat cap will allow. L2omen.
540 IS NOT A DEFENSE CAP. It's crit immune to raid bosses, 535 is crit immune for heroics and it's the primary stat for tanks to hit. Crit-jibbing is an ugly menace.
As far as survivability I'd say both have great talents. In general I would consider Blood slightly better for single-target tanking and Frost for multiple mob tanking as far as incoming damage is concerned. But the difference is slight if anything. For tanking I personally prefer Frost but have successfully tanked with Blood.
If you're not full-on progression minded, play the tree that you feel most comfortable with. They're both solid when played correctly.
Edited, May 19th 2009 11:42am by TherionSaysWhat
Frost has the advantage (currently) of being able to start right off with Howling Blast-BBx2 when glyphed but I found either to be fine for AoE threat in heroics.
edit: Forgot to mention that if the casters are trigger happy, let one die on purpose then ask them to wait a couple of seconds next time or else. DPS are responsible to do as much damage as their threat cap will allow. L2omen.
540 IS NOT A DEFENSE CAP. It's crit immune to raid bosses, 535 is crit immune for heroics and it's the primary stat for tanks to hit. Crit-jibbing is an ugly menace.
As far as survivability I'd say both have great talents. In general I would consider Blood slightly better for single-target tanking and Frost for multiple mob tanking as far as incoming damage is concerned. But the difference is slight if anything. For tanking I personally prefer Frost but have successfully tanked with Blood.
If you're not full-on progression minded, play the tree that you feel most comfortable with. They're both solid when played correctly.
Edited, May 19th 2009 11:42am by TherionSaysWhat
TherionSaysWhat, Assassin Reject wrote:
540 IS NOT A DEFENSE CAP. It's crit immune to raid bosses, 535 is crit immune for heroics and it's the primary stat for tanks to hit. Crit-jibbing is an ugly menace.
I know, I refer to it as the soft cap due to the priority change at that point, my mistake for not clarifying.
DnD, IT, PS, Pest is my normal opening rotation but I find AEers starting within 2 seconds of DnD hitting the ground. I would love to let them eat it but since they pull them out of DnD so quick I have very little agro generated and as soon as the mobs out of their AE, it usually picks up on the healer, forcing me to burn taunt, DG or a CD. Once I have agro for a few seconds I'm good, it's the first two or three seconds thats the problem.
I am progression minded but my guild isn't and leaving them isn't much of an option. Also, RL doesn't allow me a serious raid schedule, my playtime is about 9P.M. server until about 1 A.M. server 10P-2A my time. My raid progression comes in the form of PuGs, which I think is the main problem of my threat generation. Is Frost a bit more forgiving of idiot DPS?
DPS needs to wait. Period.
If they're too busy licking windows to realize that they're aggro-pulling mobs out of the DnD then there's no helping 'em. Sadly, these types are legion in PUGs.
I tell them 2 globals or death. Then leave it up to them.
Frost leads off with a ranged AoE, but HB does pump out less overall threat than DnD (due to it's threat modifier) as a lead-off. The main benefit of HB is the glyph that allows you to immediately BBx2 then Oblit your primary target.
I wouldn't say there is any tank build that is "idiot DPS proof" unfortunately. Sounds like the problem is with players, not with the build =)
If they're too busy licking windows to realize that they're aggro-pulling mobs out of the DnD then there's no helping 'em. Sadly, these types are legion in PUGs.
I tell them 2 globals or death. Then leave it up to them.
Frost leads off with a ranged AoE, but HB does pump out less overall threat than DnD (due to it's threat modifier) as a lead-off. The main benefit of HB is the glyph that allows you to immediately BBx2 then Oblit your primary target.
I wouldn't say there is any tank build that is "idiot DPS proof" unfortunately. Sounds like the problem is with players, not with the build =)
I think based on what you are saying you may be better off with Frost as you get a hefty chunk of threat right off the bat, and it seems your issue is with DPS'ers AOE's being fired early and often.
If the group you are running with (Where you state are mainly PuGs) tend to be the kill quickly and blame you for any issues type of group, then listen to Therion and let one or two die if needed. If it is a mix of RL or guild friends, have them support you as I have found that most people are lemmings and if multiple people tell them to hold up a bit, they will either do so, or leave, and neither option is bad.
Last note, I am only commenting on Frost as in any 5 mans and some 10's that I have run I have no issues with threat as Frost unless I mess up a rotation or two on a boss, and then I need to do a little dance to get it back. Normal pulls and so forth, never seems to be an issue. (Note - I have never even tried Blood so I cannot compare to that so take what I say with a grain of salt.)
If the group you are running with (Where you state are mainly PuGs) tend to be the kill quickly and blame you for any issues type of group, then listen to Therion and let one or two die if needed. If it is a mix of RL or guild friends, have them support you as I have found that most people are lemmings and if multiple people tell them to hold up a bit, they will either do so, or leave, and neither option is bad.
Last note, I am only commenting on Frost as in any 5 mans and some 10's that I have run I have no issues with threat as Frost unless I mess up a rotation or two on a boss, and then I need to do a little dance to get it back. Normal pulls and so forth, never seems to be an issue. (Note - I have never even tried Blood so I cannot compare to that so take what I say with a grain of salt.)
What's the rotation for Frost tanking? Do you open up with Howling Blast?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
When I'm tanking as Frost now (with the HB glyph) I start with HB, BBx2 (or BSx2), Oblit, RS... Then go from there. I use a priority system rather than a rotation. With interwoven RP use and Rime procs, strict rotations are inefficient. But if I had to pin it down to a rune rotation that would be the basics of it. For single-target or when the other mobs are not likely to get peeled off you would Blood Strike for Death Runes and use those for another Oblit. So you'd see:
HB/BBx2/Oblit/Dump/HB/BSx2/Oblit/Dump/HB/Oblit/Oblit/Dump repeat
Edited, May 19th 2009 8:00pm by TherionSaysWhat
HB/BBx2/Oblit/Dump/HB/BSx2/Oblit/Dump/HB/Oblit/Oblit/Dump repeat
Edited, May 19th 2009 8:00pm by TherionSaysWhat
I agree with Therion's approach. With Frost AoE tanking, I have a priority system that is something like this:
1. HB
2. BB if more than 2-3 mobs, otherwise BS.
4. Rotating Oblit--to spread aggro and for a chance to proc Rime.
5. Rotating FSs.
The basic theme of it is to keep FF up through HB at all times, and use BRs whenever they come up. The rotation Oblits is obvious.
But, one important thing (I think) with AoE tanking is that your RS will almost always be up because (you should) be dodging/parrying a LOT. And, while RS is a GREAT aggro tool, it is harder to manage in an AoE situation (imo) than FSs. For this reason, I have decided that, for my Frost tank build, it will not be macroed into my HB or BB abilities. Instead, I will tab/click through enemies and auto-attack/Oblit. Since it is macroed into that, I will get a RS every 10 seconds on a mob, but will be able to FS on a new one (almost) whenever I wish.
But, that is really a matter of taste. I just feel like I can have more control that way (especially because FS cannot be dodged/parried). And the HBs/BBs are my real source of aggro anyway, with the rotating to create a cushion.
1. HB
2. BB if more than 2-3 mobs, otherwise BS.
4. Rotating Oblit--to spread aggro and for a chance to proc Rime.
5. Rotating FSs.
The basic theme of it is to keep FF up through HB at all times, and use BRs whenever they come up. The rotation Oblits is obvious.
But, one important thing (I think) with AoE tanking is that your RS will almost always be up because (you should) be dodging/parrying a LOT. And, while RS is a GREAT aggro tool, it is harder to manage in an AoE situation (imo) than FSs. For this reason, I have decided that, for my Frost tank build, it will not be macroed into my HB or BB abilities. Instead, I will tab/click through enemies and auto-attack/Oblit. Since it is macroed into that, I will get a RS every 10 seconds on a mob, but will be able to FS on a new one (almost) whenever I wish.
But, that is really a matter of taste. I just feel like I can have more control that way (especially because FS cannot be dodged/parried). And the HBs/BBs are my real source of aggro anyway, with the rotating to create a cushion.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Therion more or less nailed it perfectly. Again, not knowing all the issues that you are having, one other note to think about is that if you see alot of your issues come into play due to adds, do not forget the use of Death and Decay. DD adds a crapload of threat when used, but the rune cost is not great for a Frost spec. However, if you see that patrol coming and can place it properly, it will plaster them to you in order for you to get them part of the regular rotation and prevent them veering to your healer or AOE dps that they happened to walk into.
(Other option is to hit them with the Howling Blast as well... sometimes it is just easier to drop DD and forget about a mob or two while you beat the main target senseless...)
Bottomline - it is situational and you need to figure out what you like best.
(Other option is to hit them with the Howling Blast as well... sometimes it is just easier to drop DD and forget about a mob or two while you beat the main target senseless...)
Bottomline - it is situational and you need to figure out what you like best.
Think I am going to give Frost a shot tonight. Not having tried it yet I have a question about a rotation.
HB, IT, PS, Pest, BB, Dump, Tab
HB, OB, BB/BS, Pest, Dump, Tab
....
Or is the added damage from the second disease not worth the loss of a BB/BS?
Also, does the spell hit cap become second priority to def or isn't it that big of an issue?
HB, IT, PS, Pest, BB, Dump, Tab
HB, OB, BB/BS, Pest, Dump, Tab
....
Or is the added damage from the second disease not worth the loss of a BB/BS?
Also, does the spell hit cap become second priority to def or isn't it that big of an issue?
Probably the main reason I stick to blood tanking is because I switch from tanking to dps back to tanking so much, tanking as blood let's me feel a minimum of a shock when switching between the two. The moves are nearly identical (difference being dps cooldowns as opposed to tanking ones) and the feel is very similar.
AoE tanking is really easy as blood. I typically lay down a DnD, then use blood boil (without diseases) to get snap aggro. Then once I have snap aggro, the DnD usually does enough to hold aggro, provided AoE waits a few seconds before they start AoEing. I have a strict policy that if you start beating on things before I hit it, or start AoEing before I've gotten a chance to get a little threat on the mobs, and you pull it off me... well I let you have it and see how well you tank it. Once you die, the mob will come back to me. I let my raid know that ahead of time, and all it took was a couple deaths before the dps realized to actually let a tank get threat before they blow all their cooldowns (novel concept, I know).
Seriously, I have zero problem AoE tanking as blood. The massive ease of trash and how everything got AoE'd down in Naxx made people too lax when it comes to killing trash. I remember from SSC days, and MC days before even that; if I AoE'd before tanks got aggro, I was dead. I decided it was my personal mission to whip dps back into remembering how to properly act. If they don't, they will be eating massive repair bills, because I WILL let them die.
AoE tanking is really easy as blood. I typically lay down a DnD, then use blood boil (without diseases) to get snap aggro. Then once I have snap aggro, the DnD usually does enough to hold aggro, provided AoE waits a few seconds before they start AoEing. I have a strict policy that if you start beating on things before I hit it, or start AoEing before I've gotten a chance to get a little threat on the mobs, and you pull it off me... well I let you have it and see how well you tank it. Once you die, the mob will come back to me. I let my raid know that ahead of time, and all it took was a couple deaths before the dps realized to actually let a tank get threat before they blow all their cooldowns (novel concept, I know).
Seriously, I have zero problem AoE tanking as blood. The massive ease of trash and how everything got AoE'd down in Naxx made people too lax when it comes to killing trash. I remember from SSC days, and MC days before even that; if I AoE'd before tanks got aggro, I was dead. I decided it was my personal mission to whip dps back into remembering how to properly act. If they don't, they will be eating massive repair bills, because I WILL let them die.
Do you use a set of priorities for Blood AOE tanking, Dilbrt, or do you go with a rotation?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Are you really asking ME if I use a rotation? Have you read nothing that I post? =p
When I'm tanking a single mob, I'm essentially dpsing in frost presence, using tanking cooldowns instead of dps ones. When I am aoe tanking I focus on grabbing initial threat (bloodboil w/o diseases) and then assure that I have continual threat on every mob. I keep DnD down when I can, throw up my diseases and spread them, then blood boil every chance I get. I death strike to get more death runes so that I can blood boil even more. As blood, blood boil hits HARD (I've had a 4.3k crit in dps gear) and it hits EVERY mob for the cost of a single rune. AoE tanking isn't a problem at all.
When I'm tanking a single mob, I'm essentially dpsing in frost presence, using tanking cooldowns instead of dps ones. When I am aoe tanking I focus on grabbing initial threat (bloodboil w/o diseases) and then assure that I have continual threat on every mob. I keep DnD down when I can, throw up my diseases and spread them, then blood boil every chance I get. I death strike to get more death runes so that I can blood boil even more. As blood, blood boil hits HARD (I've had a 4.3k crit in dps gear) and it hits EVERY mob for the cost of a single rune. AoE tanking isn't a problem at all.
Quote:
Think I am going to give Frost a shot tonight. Not having tried it yet I have a question about a rotation.
HB, IT, PS, Pest, BB, Dump, Tab
HB, OB, BB/BS, Pest, Dump, Tab
....
Or is the added damage from the second disease not worth the loss of a BB/BS?
Also, does the spell hit cap become second priority to def or isn't it that big of an issue?
HB, IT, PS, Pest, BB, Dump, Tab
HB, OB, BB/BS, Pest, Dump, Tab
....
Or is the added damage from the second disease not worth the loss of a BB/BS?
Also, does the spell hit cap become second priority to def or isn't it that big of an issue?
In general, it is:
Single Target: PS>IT>Oblit>BS>BS>FS>Oblit>Oblit>Oblit>FS, repeat. Some people report their HB doing more than Oblit, so they may choose to replace some with that. Mine does not, at the moment, so I haven't put a lot of thought into it. But, I'd likely go something like: PS>IT>HB>BS>BS>FS>Oblit>HB>Oblit>FS, repeat. You can move the locations of your RP dumps around, too. I think Therion likes them in the middle of his rotation (between the FU and B runes). Either way is fine--I never have near cap RP anyway so I never risk "losing" some.
Multi Target: HB>BB>BB>FS>Oblit>HB>BB>BB>FS, repeat. I wouldn't bother with PS--it'll just delay your Oblit uses, which are your second priority after the AoE moves for a chance to proc Rime.
In general, tanks prioritize expertise over hit, because we can be parried. HB and IT may get around this, but it still isn't that much of an issue. You DO want hit before you cap Expertise. Without gearing for hit, both have ended up about equal for me (both are like 3.75-3.85% on my DK).
Generally, prioritize like this (in my opinion):
Def to 540 > Stamina > Dodge > Parry + Expertise + Strength > Hit + AP > Crit > APen > Haste.
Def to 540 (or 535) is just standard. Stamina is as well, but you need to get 540 defense even if you have 40K health.
Dodge itemizes better than Parry, by far, so ALWAYS gem for that. NEVER for Parry (unless your gear is CRAZY good, and I don't think Parry gems are ever worthwhile with current gear options). What you get naturally and from Strength is more than enough. Expertise is in this field for the double effect. Strength boosts AP and Parry and is boosted by many DK talents.
Hit and AP are here because they are good, but you will see less return, per point, than the above.
These last three depend a lot on Spec. Blood needs more APen and Unholy wants more Crit. Both want Haste, but neither prioritize for it. Frost is, naturally, in the middle. All three of those stats won't boost our spell damage (well, Crit will a little but KM lowers the return from it). Get it naturally unless you have come up with a huge deficit.
Hope that helped.^^
For you to compare, my DK who is in beginning-Heroic gear (I just need to get Argent Crusade up for a head enchant) has:
540 Defense
22K health, unbuffed and without FP.
2.55K AP
5.3% Crit (a little low, but this is unbuffed. It goes up to 7 with HoW).
3.29% Hit.
3.75% Expertise.
17.73% Dodge.
17.62% Parry.
15K armor.
HoW and FP bring Dodge and Parry up to 19/18%, armor to 25K and health to about 25K.
Also to note, this was ALL through crafted and rep items. No quest or drops. My schedule has been too tight for that.
I haven't decided whether or not to get a DpS head enchant or a Tanking one, and regem, though... I kinda want more crit. :/
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Think I am going to give Frost a shot tonight. Not having tried it yet I have a question about a rotation.
HB, IT, PS, Pest, BB, Dump, Tab
HB, OB, BB/BS, Pest, Dump, Tab
Or is the added damage from the second disease not worth the loss of a BB/BS?
HB, IT, PS, Pest, BB, Dump, Tab
HB, OB, BB/BS, Pest, Dump, Tab
Or is the added damage from the second disease not worth the loss of a BB/BS?
I don't usually bother with IT/PS unless on a single target, in which case it would be IT/PS instead of HB. When glyphed, HB alone is great as it allows you to essentially add an Oblit at the cost of a PS. BB does more damage when a disease is on the target, no bonus for how many diseases are on it. So frost fever is plenty fine. You also don't need Pest when using a glyphed HB. Save that blood rune for more BB!
Quote:
Also, does the spell hit cap become second priority to def or isn't it that big of an issue?
Second priority, no. But remember that you have Virulence available. Should easily fix those issues if you need the added hit.
I wouldn't necessarily use a stat priority system but prefer to balance survivability (stam) and mitigation (dodge/parry/expertise) after getting crit immune (540 def for raid bosses). Threat stats (Hit/AP/Crit/etc) have just not been a concern. The gear you're looking for will have some of this as a side-dish. Other than looking to get hit capped, I just don't worry about them too much.
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