No, it's not a "whos bestest blud def nite or worrier??" thread... and yet, it is, but I'll see if I can make it slightly less mind-numbing (I'm not making promises here, though).
I'm just curious, because currently I'm struggling with leveling a Death Knight and Warrior at the same time. My Death Knight is level 74 and my Warrior is level 52. Like the thread's title implies, they're spec'd Arms and Blood. Now, I don't know if you've played a Death Knight to level 80, and it's not paramount that you have, but I'm wondering how Arms Warriors fare compared to Blood Death Knights in PvE and PvP.
I've noticed that in PvE, my Warrior is pretty much screwed if there's more than two opponents and one is a caster. The only health regenerating ability I have is the Second Wind talent which rarely procs in PvE encounters and even then, the healing is meagre. On the other hand, my Warrior really delivers on burst damage which makes her deadly in PvP. At level 52 I've surprised quite a few level 59's in Warsong Gulch. With Juggernaut, Taste for Blood and Sudden Death, the burst potential is massive. With a little luck, I'll end the fight before my Charge reloads. Sometimes I get nothing but plain hits and no procs and oddly enough that usually happens whenever the odds aren't in my favor to begin with.
My Death Knight is a powerhouse. I've never been level 52 with him, but I believe his damage is on par with the Arms Warrior, with slightly less burst potential (no real procs), but massive self-healing in return. I've got an instant 20% health pot on a 30-second cooldown or something like that (Rune Tap). I've got the ability to summon a temporary pet which I can sacrifice for a 40% health pot. The pet's on a 3-minute cooldown, though. I've got a 2-minute cooldown which increases healing done to me by 35% (combined with the previous two, it's pure awesome). I've got a talent which causes my opponent to heal me for 4% of my maximum health every time he hits me and finally I've got an attack that deals massive damage and heals me in the process. Casters? Psh, I've got an interrupt on a 10-second cooldown, a silence on a 2-minute cooldown and a shield that absorbs 75% spell damage when activated.
It would seem that the Death Knight is an amped up version of the Warrior, right? Still, I found a level 75 Warrior roaming about in Howling Fjord and he wiped the floor with my Death Knight and I used almost all my cooldowns. Maybe I'm just a horrible player, though I like to think that I'm not, but his burst damage was massive.
This had me wondering, because I love my Warrior just as much as my Death Knight, but I've been considering putting it on standby for the moment because the Death Knight seems so powerful compared to it. This recent encounter with a Warrior, however, made me rethink that thought.
So there you have it. A "wuts best dk or war??" thread that hopefully didn't fry your brain.
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Arms Warrior vs. Blood Death KnightFollow
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Protection is pretty gear dependant, isn't it? You need block value and stuff. I guess I could check the Auction House, but I don't think there's a lot of block value gear in the 50's.
Or maybe I'll be fine with stacking strength and agility?
Or maybe I'll be fine with stacking strength and agility?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Wear DPS gear if you're leveling / questing as prot. You might want to get some defensive gear for instances, but in general you roll through mobs a lot faster just wearing your DPS (plate) set.
Arms will get a lot better once you hit Outland and get out of the crappy gear ghetto.
But yes, Death Knights are leveling powerhouses. Arms isn't far behind once you get less crappy gear, though.
But yes, Death Knights are leveling powerhouses. Arms isn't far behind once you get less crappy gear, though.
All right, I'll give my Warrior another go. Thanks!
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Leveling in Northrend is so easy, there's almost never three-pulls anyway. Warrior leveling is no problem. But PvP....it ain't pretty...
Actually I think Frost is more like Warrior than Blood is.
Leveled both, played both. DKs are very strong, specially frost. They are like warriors but with more ranged, no rage system problems and no stance restrictions. The problem with DK is that it doesn't feel the same way as warrior.
Warriors get rage and their spells have cooldowns. So you aim at what you have to aim and use your rage on the 2-3 abilities that do what you want to do and keep spamming those until you need to do something else and then put your rage on the abilities that do the other thing.
DK is you have 6 runes. You open with diseases, then you do something with the other FU runes, then wait on the run to make the next "pass of runes" with some combo, then pest to refresh diseases and to another pass, and so on and so on.
To me, DK's are strong but I want more room watching and less rune watching, and THAT is the one thing that makes warriors better than DKs. As for strenght/power and all, I'm not sure. I think DKs are still ahead except for the lack of mortal strike but I want less runes and more fun.
Leveled both, played both. DKs are very strong, specially frost. They are like warriors but with more ranged, no rage system problems and no stance restrictions. The problem with DK is that it doesn't feel the same way as warrior.
Warriors get rage and their spells have cooldowns. So you aim at what you have to aim and use your rage on the 2-3 abilities that do what you want to do and keep spamming those until you need to do something else and then put your rage on the abilities that do the other thing.
DK is you have 6 runes. You open with diseases, then you do something with the other FU runes, then wait on the run to make the next "pass of runes" with some combo, then pest to refresh diseases and to another pass, and so on and so on.
To me, DK's are strong but I want more room watching and less rune watching, and THAT is the one thing that makes warriors better than DKs. As for strenght/power and all, I'm not sure. I think DKs are still ahead except for the lack of mortal strike but I want less runes and more fun.
Hey xorq, I would totally agree with your sentiment a few months ago, before I actually leveled a DK and started really playing one.
But;
Once you get the internal feel down for the cooldowns on runes, it's way easier than it looks like. I'm not even looking at my runes now. I know intuitively that since I hit with two heart strikes, that I just used 2 of my Blood runes. I also only glance at my runes (which are nicely placed with UI addons) when I notice that when I press a button nothing happens. I glance at my rune for a second, read my RP at the same time, and do something else.
Since I've played a warrior a DK and a rogue for significant amounts of time (My first character was a rogue got it to 60, deleted the character when AQ was released), I compare DK rune cooldowns to a 3 form energy bar. I do not compare runes to rage. I do compare runic power to rage, but again it's not close enough to how rage mechanics work.
Warriors start with no rage, gain rage from auto attacks and being hit (much more often than abilities). Skills use rage, which have cooldowns, unlinked to other abilities.
DK's start with full runes, the skills generate RP and consume runes. The skills cooldowns overlap due to rune cooldowns. The RP is spent to generate do additional damage or other things, outside of the rune cooldowns.
Rogues start with full energy, the skills consume energy. This causes skills to have cooldown overlap (waiting for energy).
If anything, Blood plays like an Arms warrior in terms of damage output and how you handle mobs. But I feel that DK's are more closely related to how a rogue operates on a mechanic level, with more flexibility in regards to internal cooldown management.
Obviously this is a way oversimplification, in addition each skill has it's own cooldown, be it GCD, a minute, 3 minutes, etc...
::EDIT::
About stance restrictions. Yes, warriors are stance specific on some abilities. And they lose rage when changing stances, and are built on a zero sum (although that's no longer true). DK's presence changes cost runes, and while warriors lose X amount of rage when they change stances, DK's ALWAYS lose 1/6 of their runes available when changing presences. Which would be about 16 rage per dance. We also can not change our presence if we do not have the rune for that presence. Warriors can always change stances on each and every GCD.
I'm not saying warriors are equal to DK's, and this is why I'm not playing my warrior at this time.
Edited, May 21st 2009 4:11pm by devioususer
But;
Once you get the internal feel down for the cooldowns on runes, it's way easier than it looks like. I'm not even looking at my runes now. I know intuitively that since I hit with two heart strikes, that I just used 2 of my Blood runes. I also only glance at my runes (which are nicely placed with UI addons) when I notice that when I press a button nothing happens. I glance at my rune for a second, read my RP at the same time, and do something else.
Since I've played a warrior a DK and a rogue for significant amounts of time (My first character was a rogue got it to 60, deleted the character when AQ was released), I compare DK rune cooldowns to a 3 form energy bar. I do not compare runes to rage. I do compare runic power to rage, but again it's not close enough to how rage mechanics work.
Warriors start with no rage, gain rage from auto attacks and being hit (much more often than abilities). Skills use rage, which have cooldowns, unlinked to other abilities.
DK's start with full runes, the skills generate RP and consume runes. The skills cooldowns overlap due to rune cooldowns. The RP is spent to generate do additional damage or other things, outside of the rune cooldowns.
Rogues start with full energy, the skills consume energy. This causes skills to have cooldown overlap (waiting for energy).
If anything, Blood plays like an Arms warrior in terms of damage output and how you handle mobs. But I feel that DK's are more closely related to how a rogue operates on a mechanic level, with more flexibility in regards to internal cooldown management.
Obviously this is a way oversimplification, in addition each skill has it's own cooldown, be it GCD, a minute, 3 minutes, etc...
::EDIT::
About stance restrictions. Yes, warriors are stance specific on some abilities. And they lose rage when changing stances, and are built on a zero sum (although that's no longer true). DK's presence changes cost runes, and while warriors lose X amount of rage when they change stances, DK's ALWAYS lose 1/6 of their runes available when changing presences. Which would be about 16 rage per dance. We also can not change our presence if we do not have the rune for that presence. Warriors can always change stances on each and every GCD.
I'm not saying warriors are equal to DK's, and this is why I'm not playing my warrior at this time.
Edited, May 21st 2009 4:11pm by devioususer
Well Maz, if what matters to you is PvP power you should probably check through all of the insanity that death grip really is, and then chains of ice. Whoever thought death grip was "like charge, just inverse" was wrong as hell.
Also, you were using the wrong spec for PvP, and the wrong presence for fighting a warrior.
No really, I played both plenty. The feel is different and the warrior style is much more fun to me. Specially for tanking.
Warrior tanking = fun.
DK tanking = not so fun.
The DK changing presences was something I didn't even get into because DK don't have any stance restrictions to begin with, so they will almost never need to change presences at all.
Edited, May 21st 2009 11:32pm by xorq
Also, you were using the wrong spec for PvP, and the wrong presence for fighting a warrior.
Quote:
Once you get the internal feel down for the cooldowns on runes, it's way easier than it looks like. I'm not even looking at my runes now. I know intuitively that since I hit with two heart strikes, that I just used 2 of my Blood runes. I also only glance at my runes (which are nicely placed with UI addons) when I notice that when I press a button nothing happens. I glance at my rune for a second, read my RP at the same time, and do something else.
No really, I played both plenty. The feel is different and the warrior style is much more fun to me. Specially for tanking.
Warrior tanking = fun.
DK tanking = not so fun.
Quote:
About stance restrictions. Yes, warriors are stance specific on some abilities. And they lose rage when changing stances, and are built on a zero sum (although that's no longer true). DK's presence changes cost runes, and while warriors lose X amount of rage when they change stances, DK's ALWAYS lose 1/6 of their runes available when changing presences. Which would be about 16 rage per dance. We also can not change our presence if we do not have the rune for that presence. Warriors can always change stances on each and every GCD.
The DK changing presences was something I didn't even get into because DK don't have any stance restrictions to begin with, so they will almost never need to change presences at all.
Edited, May 21st 2009 11:32pm by xorq
I would assume that in PvE, you don't change stances very often (if at all). Are you tanking in Battle or Zerker stance? No. Are you DPSing in Defensive stance? No.
While in PvP, stance dancing is much more common.
While I have very little DK PvP first hand knowledge, I have read a bit and talked to PvP DK's in guild and out.
But, when a DK is getting focus fired, they change to frost presence, and when they need to burst someone they use unholy. So, about them not needing to change presence's ever, I just don't find that a realistic idea.
Yes they can use any ability in any presence, but that doesn't mean they stand in one presence always.
And warriors seem to becoming more in line with staying in one stance more and more. Giving in combat charge or all stance in combat charge/intercept.
It's slowly moving away from Stances being so independent from each other.
I love my warrior, I've been playing him a long time. I'm sad that I don't play him as much.
I was specifically talking about Blood dps vrs Arms dps in my previous post. Not Blood tank vrs Arms tank...
And I find Blood Dps similar to Arms Dps in playstyle, when considering how we interact with mobs and how we gear. Not how we 'smash the mole' with our procs, ie. rotation. It's still, 'stay within melee range' 'stay behind the mob' 'watch our rage/rp' 'blow long cooldowns on bloodlust/heroism' 'stay out of AE'.
::EDIT::
Edited for clarity.
Edited, May 22nd 2009 2:25am by devioususer
While in PvP, stance dancing is much more common.
While I have very little DK PvP first hand knowledge, I have read a bit and talked to PvP DK's in guild and out.
But, when a DK is getting focus fired, they change to frost presence, and when they need to burst someone they use unholy. So, about them not needing to change presence's ever, I just don't find that a realistic idea.
Yes they can use any ability in any presence, but that doesn't mean they stand in one presence always.
And warriors seem to becoming more in line with staying in one stance more and more. Giving in combat charge or all stance in combat charge/intercept.
It's slowly moving away from Stances being so independent from each other.
I love my warrior, I've been playing him a long time. I'm sad that I don't play him as much.
I was specifically talking about Blood dps vrs Arms dps in my previous post. Not Blood tank vrs Arms tank...
And I find Blood Dps similar to Arms Dps in playstyle, when considering how we interact with mobs and how we gear. Not how we 'smash the mole' with our procs, ie. rotation. It's still, 'stay within melee range' 'stay behind the mob' 'watch our rage/rp' 'blow long cooldowns on bloodlust/heroism' 'stay out of AE'.
::EDIT::
Edited for clarity.
Edited, May 22nd 2009 2:25am by devioususer
No really, I played both plenty. DK almost never changes presence. Yes there are exceptions when you do, but they're far and few. Compared to warrior it's nothing.
I change stances as often as I change presences...
devioususer wrote:
I change stances as often as I change presences...
"You're doing it wrong" seems apt, then. Warriors can and should quick-shift for Disarm, Intervene, Intercept or Pummel, but they then usually revert to battle. DKs should switch presences when being focused and then switch back when it's convenient, mostly because Frost Presence is ridiculous considering the fairly minor DPS loss.
I only tank on my warrior... So, I'm not doing it wrong.
I live in zerker stance basically in PvE. Usually the only time I switch back is when I'm taking heavy damage or Intercept is on CD and I want to charge. Bloodthirst + WW + tons of rage = unstoppable.
tabstopper wrote:
Wear DPS gear if you're leveling / questing as prot. You might want to get some defensive gear for instances, but in general you roll through mobs a lot faster just wearing your DPS (plate) set.
/nod
I leveled from 60-80 as prot but with dps gear. I maintained a set of tank gear for when I joined groups. The dps gear allowed me to burn through mobs pretty quickly and my prot spec let me still take a beating. On my warrior I could let her hp bar drop a lot lower than my other toons. If my rogue was at 30% I would heal/eat up. If my warrior was at 30% I would just keep going. Then they also gave warriors the ability to regain a decent amount of health in battle so that also lowered the downtime. I wasn't stopping to heal/eat as often as you would think.
As for DK and warrior tanking/dps, etc. I love my warrior, but I play her only as a tank, I enjoy the style. I was going to do warrior dps but then DKs came out and they're basically what I wanted to do in warrior dps. I love my DK but I'll never tank on her, that's what my warrior is for.
Quote:
As for DK and warrior tanking/dps, etc. I love my warrior, but I play her only as a tank, I enjoy the style. I was going to do warrior dps but then DKs came out and they're basically what I wanted to do in warrior dps. I love my DK but I'll never tank on her, that's what my warrior is for.
How is DK better (or more fun) than Warrior for PvE dps? And what DK spec are you using? I did not enjoy the DK enough in PvE to make me like it for PvE.
I can see DK being better than warrior for PvP with the exception of anti healing effects.
It could sound silly but part of what I didn't like when tanking was the fact that it didn't have a shield and that the tanking abilities didn't have a defensive feel to them. That and then the runes yuck yuck yuck when tanking when compared to warriors defensive-aggressive hack and slash style.
For DPS, DK was ok, but other than the AoE damage it never appeared to me as better than Warrior.
xorq wrote:
Quote:
As for DK and warrior tanking/dps, etc. I love my warrior, but I play her only as a tank, I enjoy the style. I was going to do warrior dps but then DKs came out and they're basically what I wanted to do in warrior dps. I love my DK but I'll never tank on her, that's what my warrior is for.
How is DK better (or more fun) than Warrior for PvE dps? And what DK spec are you using? I did not enjoy the DK enough in PvE to make me like it for PvE.
I can see DK being better than warrior for PvP with the exception of anti healing effects.
It could sound silly but part of what I didn't like when tanking was the fact that it didn't have a shield and that the tanking abilities didn't have a defensive feel to them. That and then the runes yuck yuck yuck when tanking when compared to warriors defensive-aggressive hack and slash style.
For DPS, DK was ok, but other than the AoE damage it never appeared to me as better than Warrior.
They just are I guess. I just enjoy their play style and abilities. They're similar to EQ's Shadow Knights, which I enjoyed. Warriors are melee. I already have a rogue. DK are magic/melee. Slightly different.
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