Main Spec
18/53/0
-- This is the basic build for the fireball spec.
Note: Combustion is picked up -- Combustion has been fixed and created as a worthwhile DPS increase. Spec into it.
Rotation Info
The rotation is pretty simple overall. You basically have a priority system for your dps.
Instant Pyro > Living Bomb > Scorch [if necessary] > Fireball > Fireblast
Which means use your pyro if it is up. Next refresh living bomb if it goes down. If you have to scorch (aka don't have another mage doing it, or have a warlock putting up crit debuff). Then Fireball spam. End of fight or movement when first two are not available use Fireblast.
Glyph Choices
The main glyphs that should be chosen are:
Living Bomb (*****)
Molten Armor (***-4)
Fireball (***)
Improved Scorch (*)
-- Reasoning for Glyph choices in post below.
Gearing
FB/TTW Discussion Thread on EJ
By putting in various levels of gear into Rawr (linked in sig) they determined what is essentially best in slot from different levels of raiding (w/ and w/o hard modes, etc).
It is important to note that you will not have any fire hit talents, so you will need better than average gear to makeup for the lack of hit (and I would hope you would have a boomkin or shadowpriest putting up the hit debuff, and for those lucky alliance you get the draenei buff as well).
Stat Priorities
These can really only be defined through a proper theorycrafting program (I recommend Rawr, as it is updated quite often and takes a ton of variables into account).
From what I understand the priority (generally) is:
Spellpower > Crit > Haste > Hit > Spirit
Granted those numbers can change between gear levels and such, but assuming you have the hit gear to be doing this in the first place it is a fair assumption. You shouldn't need to be gemming/enchanting for hit overall (maybe one or two veiled, but shouldn't be using +20 hit gems).
Any questions feel free to ask.
Edited, May 4th 2009 11:31pm by Anobix
Edited, May 4th 2009 11:32pm by Anobix
Edited, May 4th 2009 11:33pm by Anobix
Edited, Oct 5th 2009 2:16pm by Anobix
Edited, Jun 30th 2010 4:03pm by Anobix
Edited, Sep 12th 2010 7:09pm by Anobix
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- The psuedo-official Arcane/Fireball Thread
The psuedo-official Arcane/Fireball ThreadFollow
Reserved for just-in-case and edits.
First edit:
Moved reasoning for Glyph Choices:
Reasoning:
EJ Thread
-- Note, these numbers are using Frostfire Bolt instead of Fireball, but the numbers should be somewhat similar to get the point across.
Edited, May 4th 2009 11:32pm by Anobix
First edit:
Moved reasoning for Glyph Choices:
Reasoning:
EJ Thread
Enthorn wrote:
Disclaimer: All of these values were taken based on one character in Rawr in as-of-then best-in-slot. If you load your own character, the DPS value of Glyph of Fireball or Glyph of Frostfire may be entirely different than what its value is for this character. As such, your character may require more or less spirit to match the DPS value of Glyph of Molten Armor to FB/FFB glyphs. It simply doesn't work that anyone can take X spirit and say every character needs that amount for this glyph to be better.
- the crit from Glyph of Molten Armor is dependent on how much spirit you have, this is fixed
- the value of that spirit/crit (and therefore, the DPS value of the glyph) is dependent on the relative stat value of crit
- the values of glyph of Fireball and Frostfire are dependent on spell power, crit, haste, etc.
- all of these things taken into consideration, X spirit will always convert to X crit, but how that ranks compared to Glyph of Fireball or Glyph of Frostfire is something you need to personally look up in Rawr
Now then... on we go.
Glyph of Molten Armor converts spirit to crit at 1:0.2, which means at 228 spirit, you have 45.9 crit rating, giving 1% crit. The old glyph gave a flat 2%, which means we need 456 spirit to break even. But breaking even doesn't mean it's the best glyph, it just means we're not at a loss. In actuality, Glyph of Fireball is providing a static 5% crit (albeit only to Fireball, and removing the DoT), so this becomes our focal point of which one to replace.
Because Glyph of Molten Armor scales with spirit, you get a much higher return from it as your spirit scales with gear and buffs. This means that it won't be offering nearly as much DPS in a 5-man setting as it will in 10-man, or 25-man (unless you specifically stack classes for these buffs). If that is an influencing factor, then I would replace Glyph of MA with Glyph of Scorch, due to the possible variance. However, if all you do is 25-man runs, or your 10-man run is well stacked, then obtaining 700 spirit isn't difficult at all. Look at our spirit sources, minus equipment:
Base: 179
Enchants: 10+20 = 30
Buffs: 80+51 = 131
Total: 179+361+30+131 = 340
Student of the Mind: 340*1.07 = 363.8
Blessing of Kings: 363.8*1.1 = 400.18 * 0.2 = 80.036/45.9 = 1.74% crit
How much more spirit do we need then?
Well, let's look. Glyph of Molten Armor is adding 246.47 DPS in our optimal set. You can roughly get this by multiplying the crit rating that it is adding by our stat value of crit. Crit is valued at 1.5 per 1 DPS. This set is listed as having 824 overall spirit. Multiply that by 0.2 and you get 164.8*1.5 = 247.2. Glyph of Fireball on the other hand is listed as 201.72. Since Glyph of Fireball really isn't going to change in value as much as Glyph of MA will, we can just leave it and work from there.
201.72/1.5 = 134.48/0.2 = 672.4 spirit needed to match Glyph of Fireball.
672.4/1.1 (kings) = 611.27/1.07 (SotM) = 571.28 - 340 (base+enchants+buffs) = 231
Thus, we need 231 spirit from items, fully raid buffed, for Glyph of Molten Armor to be as good as Glyph of Fireball.
Now it's simply a matter of looking at your equipment and seeing whether you have a total of 231 spirit from items. Some items you will have spirit from simply because you want the set bonus, or because there are no better alternatives. Take a look at the 4-piece T8, including the off-set hands: 66+33+50+64 = 213. Anything past that is surpassing Glyph of Fireball's value. This would be the 64 spirit on boots and 84 spirit on staff, which are giving 29.6 crit rating.
Keep in mind that we're only looking at the spirit value affecting Glyph of Molten Armor, so while the boots and staff only give 29.6 crit at 20% conversion, it's 81.4 crit at 55%. And Glyph of Living Bomb is so far ahead, it's not even worth calculating (especially since the value of Glyph of Living Bomb should increase as your crit increases from Glyph of Molten Armor, depending on where the DoT gets its crit rate from). Thus, it's merely a question of gear progression or raid composition I believe, as to whether or not you replace Glyph of Fireball, or Glyph of Molten Armor.
Edit: Actual numbers from Rawr.
If we start at 824 Spirit and remove 80 spirit (Divine Spirit) then remove Student of the Mind (throw 2 points in Magic Absorption for instance), we end up at 682 (824/1.07=770-88=682). Now look at Glyph values again in the Comparisons chart and you'll see Glyph of Molten Armor is at 203.12 vs Glyph of Fireball's 202.13. We lost 142 spirit (out of 824 total) and suddenly the question of which Glyph to replace isn't so easy to answer. It should be apparent though that Glyph of Molten Armor's scaling is far superior to Glyph of Fireball. Increase spirit by 10% (824->906) and Glyph of MA goes from 246.47 to 271.67 -- a jump of 25.2 DPS from a gain of 82 Spirit. Glyph of Fireball actually decreases by 0.25.
Frostfire:
Glyph of Living Bomb: 413.07
Glyph of Molten Armor: 262.72
Glyph of Frostfire: 172.19
DPS: 7228.65 (includes Focus Magic via dual spec)
Spirit: 820
Minimum spirit needed for Glyph of Molten Armor to surpass Frostfire: 732 (raid buffed), at which point:
Glyph of Molten Armor: 171.31
Glyph of Frostfire: 171.11
- the crit from Glyph of Molten Armor is dependent on how much spirit you have, this is fixed
- the value of that spirit/crit (and therefore, the DPS value of the glyph) is dependent on the relative stat value of crit
- the values of glyph of Fireball and Frostfire are dependent on spell power, crit, haste, etc.
- all of these things taken into consideration, X spirit will always convert to X crit, but how that ranks compared to Glyph of Fireball or Glyph of Frostfire is something you need to personally look up in Rawr
Now then... on we go.
Glyph of Molten Armor converts spirit to crit at 1:0.2, which means at 228 spirit, you have 45.9 crit rating, giving 1% crit. The old glyph gave a flat 2%, which means we need 456 spirit to break even. But breaking even doesn't mean it's the best glyph, it just means we're not at a loss. In actuality, Glyph of Fireball is providing a static 5% crit (albeit only to Fireball, and removing the DoT), so this becomes our focal point of which one to replace.
Because Glyph of Molten Armor scales with spirit, you get a much higher return from it as your spirit scales with gear and buffs. This means that it won't be offering nearly as much DPS in a 5-man setting as it will in 10-man, or 25-man (unless you specifically stack classes for these buffs). If that is an influencing factor, then I would replace Glyph of MA with Glyph of Scorch, due to the possible variance. However, if all you do is 25-man runs, or your 10-man run is well stacked, then obtaining 700 spirit isn't difficult at all. Look at our spirit sources, minus equipment:
Base: 179
Enchants: 10+20 = 30
Buffs: 80+51 = 131
Total: 179+361+30+131 = 340
Student of the Mind: 340*1.07 = 363.8
Blessing of Kings: 363.8*1.1 = 400.18 * 0.2 = 80.036/45.9 = 1.74% crit
How much more spirit do we need then?
Well, let's look. Glyph of Molten Armor is adding 246.47 DPS in our optimal set. You can roughly get this by multiplying the crit rating that it is adding by our stat value of crit. Crit is valued at 1.5 per 1 DPS. This set is listed as having 824 overall spirit. Multiply that by 0.2 and you get 164.8*1.5 = 247.2. Glyph of Fireball on the other hand is listed as 201.72. Since Glyph of Fireball really isn't going to change in value as much as Glyph of MA will, we can just leave it and work from there.
201.72/1.5 = 134.48/0.2 = 672.4 spirit needed to match Glyph of Fireball.
672.4/1.1 (kings) = 611.27/1.07 (SotM) = 571.28 - 340 (base+enchants+buffs) = 231
Thus, we need 231 spirit from items, fully raid buffed, for Glyph of Molten Armor to be as good as Glyph of Fireball.
Now it's simply a matter of looking at your equipment and seeing whether you have a total of 231 spirit from items. Some items you will have spirit from simply because you want the set bonus, or because there are no better alternatives. Take a look at the 4-piece T8, including the off-set hands: 66+33+50+64 = 213. Anything past that is surpassing Glyph of Fireball's value. This would be the 64 spirit on boots and 84 spirit on staff, which are giving 29.6 crit rating.
Keep in mind that we're only looking at the spirit value affecting Glyph of Molten Armor, so while the boots and staff only give 29.6 crit at 20% conversion, it's 81.4 crit at 55%. And Glyph of Living Bomb is so far ahead, it's not even worth calculating (especially since the value of Glyph of Living Bomb should increase as your crit increases from Glyph of Molten Armor, depending on where the DoT gets its crit rate from). Thus, it's merely a question of gear progression or raid composition I believe, as to whether or not you replace Glyph of Fireball, or Glyph of Molten Armor.
Edit: Actual numbers from Rawr.
If we start at 824 Spirit and remove 80 spirit (Divine Spirit) then remove Student of the Mind (throw 2 points in Magic Absorption for instance), we end up at 682 (824/1.07=770-88=682). Now look at Glyph values again in the Comparisons chart and you'll see Glyph of Molten Armor is at 203.12 vs Glyph of Fireball's 202.13. We lost 142 spirit (out of 824 total) and suddenly the question of which Glyph to replace isn't so easy to answer. It should be apparent though that Glyph of Molten Armor's scaling is far superior to Glyph of Fireball. Increase spirit by 10% (824->906) and Glyph of MA goes from 246.47 to 271.67 -- a jump of 25.2 DPS from a gain of 82 Spirit. Glyph of Fireball actually decreases by 0.25.
Frostfire:
Glyph of Living Bomb: 413.07
Glyph of Molten Armor: 262.72
Glyph of Frostfire: 172.19
DPS: 7228.65 (includes Focus Magic via dual spec)
Spirit: 820
Minimum spirit needed for Glyph of Molten Armor to surpass Frostfire: 732 (raid buffed), at which point:
Glyph of Molten Armor: 171.31
Glyph of Frostfire: 171.11
-- Note, these numbers are using Frostfire Bolt instead of Fireball, but the numbers should be somewhat similar to get the point across.
Edited, May 4th 2009 11:32pm by Anobix
The build I went with is about the same, however I did take combustion and maxed out SotM with the two points you put into flame throwing. I know some people feel safer the farther away from the boss they are but I feel the extra crit is worth it.
19 posts
Hmm what kind of hit gear are you wearing for this build?
From having +6% hit from talents, now we have 0 on fire.
back to 340 hit rating or what's needed now?
From having +6% hit from talents, now we have 0 on fire.
back to 340 hit rating or what's needed now?
As close as you can get to 14% hit (or 13% if you are alliance). I'm currently at 13.83%. I believe that comes out to be 389 to be hit capped (assuming a boomkin/shadowpriest putting up hit debuff of course).
19 posts
I checked your gear on armory...
And i belive we have quite simular, yours is a bit better.
I was wondering what dps you currently can produce?
Take ignis for example, not a perfect fight(hot pot) but then again, no one is in ulduar as far as we get on 25man.
And i belive we have quite simular, yours is a bit better.
I was wondering what dps you currently can produce?
Take ignis for example, not a perfect fight(hot pot) but then again, no one is in ulduar as far as we get on 25man.
http://wowwebstats.com/u5gzkt5agf2fm?s=331550-393276
WWS from last week. Did 4600 on Ignis. I average between probably 3500-5000 depending on fight mechanics, movement, adds, aoe, etc.
WWS from last week. Did 4600 on Ignis. I average between probably 3500-5000 depending on fight mechanics, movement, adds, aoe, etc.
3 posts
Are you still using arcane for shorter duration fights? I have similar equip and talent order but still cant come within my arcane dps. Its not a major differential but about 400 dps on 25 man. Maybe just not used to the rotation? Oh well I suppose just takes practice to get off the "easy" mode of spam arcane rotation ha.
I've been using fire for the time being as it is indeed a bit easier, especially when I am leading raids as there are less things to watch for.
I've never done fire before, and now that I'm in a good raiding guild and delving into Ulduar I am thinking of respeccing fire. What's the preferred rotation? I've looked all over the forum and can't seem to find it.
It's in the first post.
Oh man, that last post increased your intelligence D:
*Grovels before the brilliant master mage*
*Grovels before the brilliant master mage*
Oh jeez, sorry. I don't know why I didn't see that lol.
Anobix the Wise wrote:
For some reason Anobix, I remember you saying recently that fireball was now better than arcane on single target fights, for a variety of reasons. Is the spec linked above the one you were referring to?
Yep, and that is the one that I have been using.
Arcane can still be good on really short fights or fights that require high burst damage for 30 seconds, but for normal Ulduar fights (that last 4-5+ minutes each) Fireball tends to lead when you are geared for it.
Arcane can still be good on really short fights or fights that require high burst damage for 30 seconds, but for normal Ulduar fights (that last 4-5+ minutes each) Fireball tends to lead when you are geared for it.
A followup.
Assume for the moment that THIS is your gear. Go fireball? Stay arcane? I'm doing ok as arcane. Fully raid buffed I'm in the top 3 dps (low to mid 4's), but I feel like I'm just not eeking out as much as I can from my toon.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
Assume for the moment that THIS is your gear. Go fireball? Stay arcane? I'm doing ok as arcane. Fully raid buffed I'm in the top 3 dps (low to mid 4's), but I feel like I'm just not eeking out as much as I can from my toon.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
your gear is excellent, you should be in great shape with fireball. as I can tell you are raiding ulduar where it really shines. You have darn near close to hit cap (close enough)
I would change the enchant on your legs (or just wait for the T8 ones) to get spellpower/spirit (I did, iirc). very minor qualm but may be worth swapping gems in your pants and belt to get the meta gem requirement but still get the socket bonus (reckless in the pants). May want to consider trying to get the malygos necklace if you still run Naxx for Sapphiron + Maly. If not I wouldn't worry about it (at least for me with JC it is best in slot still through T8).
I would change the enchant on your legs (or just wait for the T8 ones) to get spellpower/spirit (I did, iirc). very minor qualm but may be worth swapping gems in your pants and belt to get the meta gem requirement but still get the socket bonus (reckless in the pants). May want to consider trying to get the malygos necklace if you still run Naxx for Sapphiron + Maly. If not I wouldn't worry about it (at least for me with JC it is best in slot still through T8).
Anobix the Wise wrote:
Instant Pyro > Living Bomb > Scorch [if necessary] > Fireball > Fireblast
Okay, so I just respecced Fire, as I now have 14% hit, but I'm a bit confused by the rotation. How do you get an Instant Pyro, and if you don't have an instant pyro up is there another spell you should lead with?
PigtailsOfDoom the Eccentric wrote:
Anobix the Wise wrote:
Instant Pyro > Living Bomb > Scorch [if necessary] > Fireball > Fireblast
Okay, so I just respecced Fire, as I now have 14% hit, but I'm a bit confused by the rotation. How do you get an Instant Pyro, and if you don't have an instant pyro up is there another spell you should lead with?
That's the priority, not so much rotation.
Basically though "Hot Streak" (talent) you get instant Pyro.
If it's up, that is #1 spell to cast.
If it is NOT up, you put Living Bomb on the mob. If the mob is Living Bomb'd,
Scorch. keep this at 5 stacks ALWAYS. Simply cast 5x, then recast once every 20sec(when debuff gets to 10sec or so remaining)
If Scorch is up, cast Fireball.
If you are moving, use Fireblast AFTER making sure no instant Pyro and Living Bomb is up.
Bingo. Not too hard to follow. Just get a good addon like Scorchio and it is even easier.
Okay, thanks guys, I appreciate it. 
6 posts
I would just like to take a minute to say thanks to Anobix for all he has done helping us elderly people with no brains left :)
I love EJ but sometimes they give me a headsach haha! I want to play a game not do math problems..don't make me take another pain pill.
I leveled as fire then went arcane and now have duel specced with fire and I was haveing a bit of a time getting used to it again. Especially with no POM.
I still need to find a good addon that shows my procs in an easy spot on my screen. Any sugestions?
Again Thank You for all the work you put into all this for us.
I love EJ but sometimes they give me a headsach haha! I want to play a game not do math problems..don't make me take another pain pill.
I leveled as fire then went arcane and now have duel specced with fire and I was haveing a bit of a time getting used to it again. Especially with no POM.
I still need to find a good addon that shows my procs in an easy spot on my screen. Any sugestions?
Again Thank You for all the work you put into all this for us.
6 posts
lol NVM on the addon i scrolled up!
MommyDeneb wrote:
I would just like to take a minute to say thanks to Anobix for all he has done helping us elderly people with no brains left :)
I love EJ but sometimes they give me a headsach haha! I want to play a game not do math problems..don't make me take another pain pill.
I leveled as fire then went arcane and now have duel specced with fire and I was haveing a bit of a time getting used to it again. Especially with no POM.
I still need to find a good addon that shows my procs in an easy spot on my screen. Any sugestions?
Again Thank You for all the work you put into all this for us.
I love EJ but sometimes they give me a headsach haha! I want to play a game not do math problems..don't make me take another pain pill.
I leveled as fire then went arcane and now have duel specced with fire and I was haveing a bit of a time getting used to it again. Especially with no POM.
I still need to find a good addon that shows my procs in an easy spot on my screen. Any sugestions?
Again Thank You for all the work you put into all this for us.
well Blizzard is taking steps to tone down the amount of math required to theorycraft your dps. If you think Mage dps charts look bad the enhancement Shaman dps charts are 4D (yeap, 4D somewhere a statistics professor is smiling in their sleep)
Anobix have you seen any of the theories on crit with Coliseum gear. I have not ran much on it yet but my GM is also a mage and a heavy theorycrafter, and coming from him crit and haste are both going to be almost at even par with spellpower now that the spellpower we are running is getting so high. Somewhere in the range of 1.0-1.1. Enough so that it is going to be worthwhile to start matching all sockets with runed/purified/(reckless/potent) and that almost any socket bonus would be worth getting because the gems are going to all be similar in value. This is I think assuming the t9 bonus giving even more spirit to crit rating which will justify the purified.
I haven't read a mage thread on EJ for a week or two, I will have to go check that out. As far as I had heard we are going to be fairly capped on crit with current gear without gemming for it, and point for point you get more out of haste than you do crit -- where at our current gear level haste will be coming extremely close (and some say surpassing spellpower at BiS gear levels) but spellpower is the safer bet because of the constant damage and if mana becomes an issue.
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