Super mathtard question, but probably will become an opinion question.
I dont usually ask too many opinion questions, but it is Friday.
-Unholy tank (I am not attempting to hit max DPS, just max while being able to tank)
-And, perma pet (yes for some reason, i still love the perma pet)
-Equipment will be focused on Defense (till soft cap of 535), Expertise (till soft cap of 26), Dodge, Parry, and Hit Rating (soft cap 160 with virulence).
-Augments such as gems, enchants, or whatever would focus on STA increases
-Since primarily tanking, Frost Presence would always be used
Build 1 - Appears to focus on Scoure Strike use
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0xZhxxZfg0Ixbb0Iaocout
Build 2 - goes towards using obliterate
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0gZhxb0hZcghhxbb0Iqocoht
Now, i only started looking at obliterate, because once i started plugging in the numbers for build 1 it appears obliterate was still better (but consumed a disease).
If anyone can actually show the math for three different fight sequences: quest grinding (short burst fight), 5/10 man dungeon mobs (slightly longer), and raiding mob (long boss fights), I would really appreciate it. If not, I am open to opinions.
Thank You.
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Obliterate v Scourge StrikeFollow
well, at a glance, oblit has to go thru armor and requires a glyph in order to be at its max power. scourge strike ignores armor and, when glyphed, omits the need for using PS and IT in your rotation most of the time (and one SS is going to hit harder than one IT hit and one PS hit). so really, any kind of deep unholy build *really* supports using SS over oblit. given that you can glyph SS to infect a target with diseases and thus utilize your FU runes for a more damaging ability (and generate more threat) it would seem to me that going the SS route is better overall.
its not really a math issue, just a synergy one; your SS is going to be getting crit bonuses that your oblit wouldnt thanks to you being unholy specced. in order to make oblit hit as hard as SS youre going to need a goodly amount of armor reduction on the target (sunder/EA at least), the glyph, a good weapon (*not* a TSD), and a deep frost spec. SS is more forgiving about your weapon strength and its damage isn't reliant on how much armor the target has, plus your talent build supports SS over oblit anyway. going into annihilation doesnt necessarily make oblit worth using; it just adds another few crit % to SS.
its not really a math issue, just a synergy one; your SS is going to be getting crit bonuses that your oblit wouldnt thanks to you being unholy specced. in order to make oblit hit as hard as SS youre going to need a goodly amount of armor reduction on the target (sunder/EA at least), the glyph, a good weapon (*not* a TSD), and a deep frost spec. SS is more forgiving about your weapon strength and its damage isn't reliant on how much armor the target has, plus your talent build supports SS over oblit anyway. going into annihilation doesnt necessarily make oblit worth using; it just adds another few crit % to SS.
Both of those builds seem ridiculous to me. But, before I get to that, I'll comment on the initial question.
If you are Unholy, you are using SS.
For one, you seem to misunderstand Oblit. It doesn't consume one disease, it consumes ALL of them.
Second of all, using Oblit but going deep Unholy means that: A. you never get any skills that boost Oblit damage, and those that exist in the Unholy tree to boost SS damage are useless.
Third of all, you seem to not realize that Unholy is our best AoE tanking tree.
About your build:
Virulence: Unnecessary as a tank. 3% isn't worth it for 3 points. It'll only help IT, really, and DCs when you are tanking a boss. And, with epidemic, missing the former doesn't matter because you won't run out the clock. And, with the SS glyph, you will usually find yourself refreshing diseases without spells.
OaPH: NO. It is UNACCEPTABLE to pass up some AWESOME talents, but take this. 100% not okay. It will not help you be a better tank. Well, 20% reduction to stun and fear is nice in some encounters, but those are few and far between (those where it actually matters).
No UB: WHY? With the Glyph, that is 30 seconds of easy threat. Phenomenal in AoE. Good on bosses (it should do more than DC on a boss, if I recall, as Unholy). No reason to pass this up.
No Impurity: UB + Impurity = Joy. DnD, too, but I don't use that often. It'll also boost your IT, your DC, your disease damage, your AMZ absorbancy, your CE (if you take it) and your Garg (if you take it). Should grab it as a PvE DK.
No Dirge: While these two points won't make or break you, more RP = more RSs = more threat and DpS.
NotD and Perma-Pet: While you CAN take these, it is generally considered a waste. Some DKs will take NotD to lower the AotD CD to 10 minutes, because it is also a mitigation technique. Your pet will often die quickly, too, without GF (which is not worth it as a tank). Your ghouls won't give you threat, either.
Desecration: A matter of preference. I don't take it, because too many fights are mobile and it lowers my FpS for too small an effect. But, the fact that SS causes it too, now, makes it better.
No WP: WHY? This talent is AWESOME. And it gets exponentially better as you add targets. Even on bosses it is a nice boost (generally another 100-300 damage every 15 seconds, boosted by your EP).
Garg: You get fewer RSs for an ability that won't give you any threat. On top of that, you don't take Impurity, which is a noticeable DpS increase for it.
No Bladed Armor: WHY? WHY, WHY, WHY? This skill is phenomenal, ESPECIALLY for Unholy DKs.
No Two-Handed Weapon Specialization: 4% more damage for all your SSs, PSs, RSs, and auto-attacks.
Black Ice: It is... okay. But, I have NO CLUE why you are taking it in that build. The only thing it will do for you is boost your DCs and your weapon component of SS by 10%. Not that great for 5 points, considering what you lose elsewhere.
Imp Icy Touch: A nice mitigation talent, but you shouldn't take it if you are already passing up better things.
Try this build.
There are two floater points you can put elsewhere. If you place them in anything before Bone Shield's tier, you can lose CE. For that matter, you can move CE's point wherever you want it.
Rotation for Single Targets:
IT>PS>SS>BS>BS>UB>SS>SS>SS>DC, repeat. If your SS glyph procs, replace the IT>PS with a SS. Replace UBs with DCs until the rotation is up (It will likely be at the end of your first repeat. Use RS whenever possible, but try and budget for UB. You can skip DCs for two RSs, if you'd like (rather, if you don't have enough RP for DC, that's fine).
Rotation for Multiple Targets:
IT>PS>Pest>BB>SS>UB>SS>SS>BB>BB>DC>repeat. Make sure your diseases are always up on all mobs--Wandering Plague will work wonders. And the fact that always having BP up is good for your UB damage.
You can use DnD if you'd like. Just make it DnD>PS>IT>BB>UB>SS>SS>BB>BB>DC, repeat (it can mix up a bit, because DnD refreshes 3 runes at once).
If you are Unholy, you are using SS.
For one, you seem to misunderstand Oblit. It doesn't consume one disease, it consumes ALL of them.
Second of all, using Oblit but going deep Unholy means that: A. you never get any skills that boost Oblit damage, and those that exist in the Unholy tree to boost SS damage are useless.
Third of all, you seem to not realize that Unholy is our best AoE tanking tree.
About your build:
Virulence: Unnecessary as a tank. 3% isn't worth it for 3 points. It'll only help IT, really, and DCs when you are tanking a boss. And, with epidemic, missing the former doesn't matter because you won't run out the clock. And, with the SS glyph, you will usually find yourself refreshing diseases without spells.
OaPH: NO. It is UNACCEPTABLE to pass up some AWESOME talents, but take this. 100% not okay. It will not help you be a better tank. Well, 20% reduction to stun and fear is nice in some encounters, but those are few and far between (those where it actually matters).
No UB: WHY? With the Glyph, that is 30 seconds of easy threat. Phenomenal in AoE. Good on bosses (it should do more than DC on a boss, if I recall, as Unholy). No reason to pass this up.
No Impurity: UB + Impurity = Joy. DnD, too, but I don't use that often. It'll also boost your IT, your DC, your disease damage, your AMZ absorbancy, your CE (if you take it) and your Garg (if you take it). Should grab it as a PvE DK.
No Dirge: While these two points won't make or break you, more RP = more RSs = more threat and DpS.
NotD and Perma-Pet: While you CAN take these, it is generally considered a waste. Some DKs will take NotD to lower the AotD CD to 10 minutes, because it is also a mitigation technique. Your pet will often die quickly, too, without GF (which is not worth it as a tank). Your ghouls won't give you threat, either.
Desecration: A matter of preference. I don't take it, because too many fights are mobile and it lowers my FpS for too small an effect. But, the fact that SS causes it too, now, makes it better.
No WP: WHY? This talent is AWESOME. And it gets exponentially better as you add targets. Even on bosses it is a nice boost (generally another 100-300 damage every 15 seconds, boosted by your EP).
Garg: You get fewer RSs for an ability that won't give you any threat. On top of that, you don't take Impurity, which is a noticeable DpS increase for it.
No Bladed Armor: WHY? WHY, WHY, WHY? This skill is phenomenal, ESPECIALLY for Unholy DKs.
No Two-Handed Weapon Specialization: 4% more damage for all your SSs, PSs, RSs, and auto-attacks.
Black Ice: It is... okay. But, I have NO CLUE why you are taking it in that build. The only thing it will do for you is boost your DCs and your weapon component of SS by 10%. Not that great for 5 points, considering what you lose elsewhere.
Imp Icy Touch: A nice mitigation talent, but you shouldn't take it if you are already passing up better things.
Try this build.
There are two floater points you can put elsewhere. If you place them in anything before Bone Shield's tier, you can lose CE. For that matter, you can move CE's point wherever you want it.
Rotation for Single Targets:
IT>PS>SS>BS>BS>UB>SS>SS>SS>DC, repeat. If your SS glyph procs, replace the IT>PS with a SS. Replace UBs with DCs until the rotation is up (It will likely be at the end of your first repeat. Use RS whenever possible, but try and budget for UB. You can skip DCs for two RSs, if you'd like (rather, if you don't have enough RP for DC, that's fine).
Rotation for Multiple Targets:
IT>PS>Pest>BB>SS>UB>SS>SS>BB>BB>DC>repeat. Make sure your diseases are always up on all mobs--Wandering Plague will work wonders. And the fact that always having BP up is good for your UB damage.
You can use DnD if you'd like. Just make it DnD>PS>IT>BB>UB>SS>SS>BB>BB>DC, repeat (it can mix up a bit, because DnD refreshes 3 runes at once).
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
in defense, black ice increases more than just SS, DC and IT damage. it also increases your FF ticks and your BP ticks, which comboed with wandering plague makes for a good hunk of extra damage.
add in the synergies with rage of rivendare and desecration and you can get some very mean unholy blight/blood plague/BCB/necrosis damage. all of those multipliers together make for a ~28% increase in damage from the skills they apply too. thats a lot of extra damage and threat.
Edited, May 1st 2009 3:14pm by Quor
add in the synergies with rage of rivendare and desecration and you can get some very mean unholy blight/blood plague/BCB/necrosis damage. all of those multipliers together make for a ~28% increase in damage from the skills they apply too. thats a lot of extra damage and threat.
Edited, May 1st 2009 3:14pm by Quor
Quote:
in defense, black ice increases more than just SS, DC and IT damage. it also increases your FF ticks and your BP ticks, which comboed with wandering plague makes for a good hunk of extra damage.
add in the synergies with rage of rivendare and desecration and you can get some very mean unholy blight/blood plague/BCB/necrosis damage. all of those multipliers together make for a ~28% increase in damage from the skills they apply too. thats a lot of extra damage and threat.
add in the synergies with rage of rivendare and desecration and you can get some very mean unholy blight/blood plague/BCB/necrosis damage. all of those multipliers together make for a ~28% increase in damage from the skills they apply too. thats a lot of extra damage and threat.
No argument.
I would still take Bladed Armor over it, personally. An extra, passive, 400 AP is hard to beat. That is about 1 damage less, per tick, on UB I think. But, it counts towards other things as well and should be a larger boost on diseases (I THINK) than the 10%.
Plus, it boosts BB damage, which rocks now.
Especially when, like his builds above, didn't take UB or WP or BCB.
But, does BCB count as Shadow Damage? Does Necrosis proc on it, too, or something?
I'd say both are valid (and probably about equal), but with the builds he linked, taking BI over BA seemed ridiculous. He was sacrificing so much, considering two major sources of damage were nonexistent.
I do have a question, though. Does WP count as shadow/frost damage, depending on the disease? It says it causes 100% additional damage to targets around it, but does the elemental status carry over?
[EDIT]
Awkward wording.
Edited, May 1st 2009 6:31pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
afaik yeah the elemental status carries over with WP ticks. it also works on necrosis and BCB damage, as in my old pvp build BCB would hit for less than it would in my pve build (both had RoR, but my pvp build at the time did not have RoR+black ice like my pve build did).
but yeah, for his build BA is probably better. for the tank and dps builds i would make tho, black ice fits the bill perfectly. there are just so many synergies that it works with multiplicatively that lets you deal so much more damage than youd expect a 10% increase to account for.
but yeah, for his build BA is probably better. for the tank and dps builds i would make tho, black ice fits the bill perfectly. there are just so many synergies that it works with multiplicatively that lets you deal so much more damage than youd expect a 10% increase to account for.
From what I've seen the discussion has wandered a bit. I like to keep things simple, myself, my focus as a tank is first survival, second threat generation. Here's a link to my talents, followed by one or two brief explanations.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Sen%27jin&n=Malithar&group=1
As for the original question, I think Scourge Strike is highly preferable to Obliterate
My build is focused on trying to make every single talent point amplify every other talent, like Bladed Armor, Black Ice and Impurity going particularly well together, and Reaping having been skipped because I find without the 2 points in Epidemic, I usually employ my blood runes as blood runes (Pestilence to refresh diseases, Blood Boil).
As tanks, we'll never really have any Armor Penetration to speak of, so I find Scourge Strike an excellent way to bypass that.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Sen%27jin&n=Malithar&group=1
As for the original question, I think Scourge Strike is highly preferable to Obliterate
My build is focused on trying to make every single talent point amplify every other talent, like Bladed Armor, Black Ice and Impurity going particularly well together, and Reaping having been skipped because I find without the 2 points in Epidemic, I usually employ my blood runes as blood runes (Pestilence to refresh diseases, Blood Boil).
As tanks, we'll never really have any Armor Penetration to speak of, so I find Scourge Strike an excellent way to bypass that.
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