I've been raiding for a few months and have 2 BIS items, unless valorous is considered BIS. Boyiee, I'm assuming you are in a fairly progressed guild, with lots of members and plenty of 20 guildie 5 pug naxx EOE runs. Some of us are in guilds using DKP (me) where slight upgrades, while it might mean BIS, are not worth spending the points w/ the patch looming. The amount of BIS items most regular players can obtain in 2 weeks might be 3 or 4 tops, and those items probably aren't going to make up the dps differential between shiv and mutilate. I'm not a statistician, and certainly not a theorycrafter, as I'm a dunce with numbers, but cookie cutter builds are made for a reason. You know more about the game than I do, and should understand this idea.
To Assailant - wasn't meant to be a smartass, I just stopped reading because I don't know enough about mechanics to give valid suggestions on your spec.
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Boyiee wrote:
Theo, you said combat wasn't as good as the other 2 specs, I replied that with bis gear combat it's just as good.
Mahlerite pointed out that this is wrong, as mutilate is ~7% better than combat. It's potentially viable if you raid doesn't have the 2% physical damage buff from Arms or Combat, but it's a waste if you do.
It's also a waste in 10 man content, as you don't have the physical DPS to make up for the potential lost when playing Mut.
HAT is the only build I would consider other than Mut at the moment, but I would need a group of feral/hunter/shaman/warrior (mix of those classes) to pull it off.
So no, it's not "just as good" unless you have a specific situation with specific gear requirements (i.e. having the proper weapons for one spec over another, not having the 2% physical damage buff present, having a certain amount of physical DPS in the raid, etc), which inherently makes it not as good.
As for the patch coming the 21st or 28th, it's most likely the 14th or 21st; whenever the arena season ends. If you can point me to a blue post that said for sure that the arena season will be ending a week before the patch goes live, go for it, but all the information that I've seen indicates that the patch will be the same day as the end of the season.
Again, for the 3rd time I believe.
No one is saying anything about getting full best in slot in 2 weeks............. Stop saying that lol. Feyras made a statement about how the word BIS shouldn't be used on this forum, implying this forum is for noobs. This forum has been trying to gain credibility as an end game forum for many MMO's, and has. I was only responding to his statement, that BIS should be used here since the moment you hit 80, you have access to it. Nothing about getting full best in slot in 2 weeks. It doesn't require a guild, the instances are puggable and it's extremely easy to get them. My guild only does 10mans, and my rogue pugs every 25man every week including 3Drake OS and has all but one 226ilvl item. It's not difficult to do. Therefore, it is FINE to talk about Best in Slot on these forums.
Cookie cutter builds are for a reason, for people that are new and don't know any better, and the current top dps build. There is always a "This spec is all around good" There is no reason that the more advanced players shouldn't be researching and trying other builds. This is how HAT came about, this is how Shiv came about. This isn't for fresh 80's, these are for people with some gear that want to maximize their raid spot in a 25man instance. You should be able to understand that. Shiv spec, as stated, isn't for a fresh 80, it's for people that know the class and have the gear for it. This thread is about Shiv spec, a high end, end game gear requiring build. The build is very strong and parses very well against mutilate and the normal combat spec in 25mans.
This isn't about cookie cutters. Don't you see that, with all the talk of Best in slot gear, 3Drake OS, HAT stacked groups, etc? I don't mean to come off rude if I am so I apologize if it seems that way.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 7:14pm by Boyiee
No one is saying anything about getting full best in slot in 2 weeks............. Stop saying that lol. Feyras made a statement about how the word BIS shouldn't be used on this forum, implying this forum is for noobs. This forum has been trying to gain credibility as an end game forum for many MMO's, and has. I was only responding to his statement, that BIS should be used here since the moment you hit 80, you have access to it. Nothing about getting full best in slot in 2 weeks. It doesn't require a guild, the instances are puggable and it's extremely easy to get them. My guild only does 10mans, and my rogue pugs every 25man every week including 3Drake OS and has all but one 226ilvl item. It's not difficult to do. Therefore, it is FINE to talk about Best in Slot on these forums.
Cookie cutter builds are for a reason, for people that are new and don't know any better, and the current top dps build. There is always a "This spec is all around good" There is no reason that the more advanced players shouldn't be researching and trying other builds. This is how HAT came about, this is how Shiv came about. This isn't for fresh 80's, these are for people with some gear that want to maximize their raid spot in a 25man instance. You should be able to understand that. Shiv spec, as stated, isn't for a fresh 80, it's for people that know the class and have the gear for it. This thread is about Shiv spec, a high end, end game gear requiring build. The build is very strong and parses very well against mutilate and the normal combat spec in 25mans.
This isn't about cookie cutters. Don't you see that, with all the talk of Best in slot gear, 3Drake OS, HAT stacked groups, etc? I don't mean to come off rude if I am so I apologize if it seems that way.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 7:14pm by Boyiee
@Theo
Combat Shiv spec as posted by elitist jerks keeps up with mutilate, Spreadsheet isn't always 100% right. You can also check EJ to see lots of WWS where combat rogues sit right next to mutilate rogues, trading off spots depending on the fight. You and I both know how spreadsheet works, not every fight is a 2minute patchwerk.
As far as the blue posts about arena season etc:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16102190121&sid=1
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8523004082
That states arena season will end as soon as 14th, that there will be 1-2 weeks before season 6. There are other blue posts that say they want patches to release with arena seasons. I'll dig up the other ones now. But yes, its speculative, the only garunteed thing is the wait between 5 and 6. The blue posts I'm looking for said that in the future they want raid+arena to be together, i'll try to find that blue post.
Edit: guess I double posted instead of edited. Anyway. I went back 14pages on MMO blues and couldn't find it, cause it ended at 14 pages. The information was probably on 15th page. Anyway, there was a blue post mentioning they dont want people walking into arena's in full pve gear, that they want to introduce raid+pvp content simultaneously, or try putting out the pvp thing first. Coupled with arena season most likely ending on 14th, you can see that 3.1 will probably release with season 6, on either 21st or 28th, but not before 21st.
In hindsight, It would make sense to end the season, and release patch on same day. So that people that lose their arena's on the 14th will have something else to do. But then season6 will be similar to the start of season5, and with the ptr the way it is we may need one more build first.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 7:18pm by Boyiee
Combat Shiv spec as posted by elitist jerks keeps up with mutilate, Spreadsheet isn't always 100% right. You can also check EJ to see lots of WWS where combat rogues sit right next to mutilate rogues, trading off spots depending on the fight. You and I both know how spreadsheet works, not every fight is a 2minute patchwerk.
As far as the blue posts about arena season etc:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16102190121&sid=1
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8523004082
That states arena season will end as soon as 14th, that there will be 1-2 weeks before season 6. There are other blue posts that say they want patches to release with arena seasons. I'll dig up the other ones now. But yes, its speculative, the only garunteed thing is the wait between 5 and 6. The blue posts I'm looking for said that in the future they want raid+arena to be together, i'll try to find that blue post.
Edit: guess I double posted instead of edited. Anyway. I went back 14pages on MMO blues and couldn't find it, cause it ended at 14 pages. The information was probably on 15th page. Anyway, there was a blue post mentioning they dont want people walking into arena's in full pve gear, that they want to introduce raid+pvp content simultaneously, or try putting out the pvp thing first. Coupled with arena season most likely ending on 14th, you can see that 3.1 will probably release with season 6, on either 21st or 28th, but not before 21st.
In hindsight, It would make sense to end the season, and release patch on same day. So that people that lose their arena's on the 14th will have something else to do. But then season6 will be similar to the start of season5, and with the ptr the way it is we may need one more build first.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 7:18pm by Boyiee
Boyiee wrote:
Feyras made a statement about how the word BIS shouldn't be used on this forum, implying this forum is for noobs.
I wasn't saying that this forum is for noobs. I was saying that there are a lot of noobs that come to this forum. So, when you say that combat is pulling of yada yada yada dps, and then back it up by saying with BiS gear. That isn't really helping out that person who either a)just starting to raid with their rogues, or b) just starting to lurk these forums to learn how to play their rogue better.
So, when you come in here with a spec that isn't a proven "top dps" spec then you need to back it up with solid WWS numbers. There is a lot of bogus information on other websites that steer people wrong. There are only a few people that are "regular" rogue posters, and out of those few, there is only a couple that post solid information on a consistent basis.
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Fun spec > BIS proven dps spec > shiv spec > combat daggers.
IE if you hate combat but it does an *** clench more in dps, don't go combat.
IE if you hate combat but it does an *** clench more in dps, don't go combat.
Fey there was a link to EJ with the shiv info already posted, I had no need to back it up when someone else already posted it, actually 2 people posted the info for me, one was before I even posted.
That is their own fault in all honesty. If a new player comes in here, and is learning to play rogue, he should have read the stickies provided for him on what to do.
I understand that not everyone here is an endgame rogue, but the same, we'll call it "fresh 80" or "new player" info is mixed in on some of those sites as well (see: pocket guide) just like it is here. There is no reason for this forum to be strictly beginner information. This forum is a MUCH better forum than EJ or MMO to me, because of how fast things get strewed up and/or lost completely over there. There should be more end game discussion here, there are stickies for people that don't need the high end raiding information, if they don't read the stickies that is their own fault. If they come here as a new rogue, and see all the end game info, but skip the sticky, who's to blame? The information is laid out for them and is very organized.
And @above poster. I understand and agree that Fun spec > best spec > or whatever in most cases, as long as it doesn't preform to badly. But lets face it, as a rogue, we don't bring much to the table as far as raid buffs, we are a dps slot which can be better filled typically by other classes. That means in most cases, in high end guilds, we are required to sacrifice that fun spec to maximize ourselves. If my guild now was anything like my guild in sunwell, I'd probably be playing a different class just to keep my raid spot. Fortunately, wotlk raiding is different, and we can play the class we enjoy. In some cases, for some of us, we do have to play combat even if we hate it, or we don't get to raid. Just switch out the word "combat" for "hat" or "mutilate" or whatever is best per-current patch.
Edited, Apr 11th 2009 1:46am by Boyiee
Quote:
I wasn't saying that this forum is for noobs. I was saying that there are a lot of noobs that come to this forum. So, when you say that combat is pulling of yada yada yada dps, and then back it up by saying with BiS gear. That isn't really helping out that person who either a)just starting to raid with their rogues, or b) just starting to lurk these forums to learn how to play their rogue better.
That is their own fault in all honesty. If a new player comes in here, and is learning to play rogue, he should have read the stickies provided for him on what to do.
I understand that not everyone here is an endgame rogue, but the same, we'll call it "fresh 80" or "new player" info is mixed in on some of those sites as well (see: pocket guide) just like it is here. There is no reason for this forum to be strictly beginner information. This forum is a MUCH better forum than EJ or MMO to me, because of how fast things get strewed up and/or lost completely over there. There should be more end game discussion here, there are stickies for people that don't need the high end raiding information, if they don't read the stickies that is their own fault. If they come here as a new rogue, and see all the end game info, but skip the sticky, who's to blame? The information is laid out for them and is very organized.
And @above poster. I understand and agree that Fun spec > best spec > or whatever in most cases, as long as it doesn't preform to badly. But lets face it, as a rogue, we don't bring much to the table as far as raid buffs, we are a dps slot which can be better filled typically by other classes. That means in most cases, in high end guilds, we are required to sacrifice that fun spec to maximize ourselves. If my guild now was anything like my guild in sunwell, I'd probably be playing a different class just to keep my raid spot. Fortunately, wotlk raiding is different, and we can play the class we enjoy. In some cases, for some of us, we do have to play combat even if we hate it, or we don't get to raid. Just switch out the word "combat" for "hat" or "mutilate" or whatever is best per-current patch.
Edited, Apr 11th 2009 1:46am by Boyiee
Boyiee wrote:
That is their own fault in all honesty. If a new player comes in here, and is learning to play rogue, he should have read the stickies provided for him on what to do.
I understand that not everyone here is an endgame rogue, but the same, we'll call it "fresh 80" or "new player" info is mixed in on some of those sites as well (see: pocket guide) just like it is here. There is no reason for this forum to be strictly beginner information. This forum is a MUCH better forum than EJ or MMO to me, because of how fast things get strewed up and/or lost completely over there. There should be more end game discussion here, there are stickies for people that don't need the high end raiding information, if they don't read the stickies that is their own fault. If they come here as a new rogue, and see all the end game info, but skip the sticky, who's to blame? The information is laid out for them and is very organized.
I understand that not everyone here is an endgame rogue, but the same, we'll call it "fresh 80" or "new player" info is mixed in on some of those sites as well (see: pocket guide) just like it is here. There is no reason for this forum to be strictly beginner information. This forum is a MUCH better forum than EJ or MMO to me, because of how fast things get strewed up and/or lost completely over there. There should be more end game discussion here, there are stickies for people that don't need the high end raiding information, if they don't read the stickies that is their own fault. If they come here as a new rogue, and see all the end game info, but skip the sticky, who's to blame? The information is laid out for them and is very organized.
This is the last I'm going to talk about this in this thread.
Boy, You're right, there is a sticky that has basic information that was written by Theo awhile back. It is somewhat updated by posts from random people talking about the newer mechanics that haven't been edited in by Theo. Therefore, SOME of the information in it is a little outdated.
Again, I never said these forums are strictly beginner information. All I said is, if, you post about some random spec that YOU think has great dps it should be backed up with a WWS link.
As for reading the stickies, you apparently don't pay attention to all the post in this forum. I'm sure you can briefly skim through the ones on the first page and, more than likely, find a few threads that ask pretty much the EXACT same questions as one or two of the others.
For example, the most recent threads are rate my gear threads. I understand everyone's gear is different when starting out, but if a few of the regular rogue posters say, "Hey you need to get X gear from Y faction, and get X stats up with Y enchants, etc," Than it probaly can benefit you somehow. Also, they ask about rotations. I know I personally have linked Akrios' mutilate rotation video on his website at least 3 or 4 times in the past month, or so.
You don't see very much of the "hardcore" endgame discussion on these forums, because the people who post here regularly know what they're doing. The people I'm talking about are people like Theo, Myteddy, Thomas, Mental, Therion, and a few others I might have forgotten. Why would they sit here and discussion crap that they already all know?
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
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Theo's quote of what Boyiee said wrote:
Now someone else is calling me out because I replied to theo saying "combat is equal to mutilate in BIS gear pretty much"... and this guy says "You said BIS? Worst Rebuttle ever, not everyone has access to BIS gear"
Next time you are going to use me in a QQ session, at least spell the word right. I didn't misspell it. This makes you look even more retarded. I took a Karma beating for that post, but I still feel that using BiS when there are a lot of people on these forums who come here for basic knowledge is dumb.
I never said people didn't have access to BiS gear, but there are people that have only an hour or so to play. Therefore, they do heroics for t7 gear with badges and want a solid spec to play with while in heroics. A shiv spec isn't a viable spec in quest blues/greens compared to mutilate, or even HaT.
Now you have 400+ post and not even a scholar makes A LOT of more sense to me now. It is obvious you haven't contributed anything to this community worth rating up. Theo, on the other hand, has done a TON for the rogue/dk community. I personally read every post Theo makes in this thread because I know it will be solid information.
You, and people like you, are the problem with these forums. You come in here and post some information that you heard from someone else, and don't know the full details about it. Please do the Zam forums a thread and go somewhere else. You have proven to me that your words are utter ignorance.
Also, if one person makes a comment saying your wrong, but others back you, then you probaly are right. On the other hand, when multiple people say your wrong, then you probaly are wrong. Regardless if it is viable now it won't be in the next few weeks, and takes BiS gear level, which, means that only a few people reading these forums are able to use it to it's full capability.
Edited, Apr 11th 2009 4:44pm by Feyras
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
God I needed these lol's.
The funny thing is, I don't need to be taken seriously here, cause obviously it's pointless when the information is above this forums heads. I can go back to theory crafting on EJ, but that's not as much fun as this. As Feyras should know, even posting useful information get's your rating beat down here. I've contributed here before but it doesn't really matter, even asked things to be edited or put in the sticky but like it was stated it is outdated. The EJ link was posted, if you guys need me to go through 30+ pages of information and quote each post I will, but I figured you were capable of clicking on the link and reading it yourself.
Probably the most humorous thing you've posted ever. The link was posted genius, and next time I'll make sure to give you a shout out from EJ when I contribute there even though I really "don't know the full details" about my testing apparently.
Like the OP? He was told he was wrong, but was backed? And the spec has been "viable" for months, it just took that long to get here and still the main people on this forum didn't seem to know about it, even though they claim read EJ.
This thread just proved that at least one of those people don't know what their talking about. Maybe they should sit here and discuss it, instead of telling other rogues they are wrong when they are in fact right.
Edited, Apr 11th 2009 5:02pm by Boyiee
The funny thing is, I don't need to be taken seriously here, cause obviously it's pointless when the information is above this forums heads. I can go back to theory crafting on EJ, but that's not as much fun as this. As Feyras should know, even posting useful information get's your rating beat down here. I've contributed here before but it doesn't really matter, even asked things to be edited or put in the sticky but like it was stated it is outdated. The EJ link was posted, if you guys need me to go through 30+ pages of information and quote each post I will, but I figured you were capable of clicking on the link and reading it yourself.
Quote:
You come in here and post some information that you heard from someone else, and don't know the full details about it.
Probably the most humorous thing you've posted ever. The link was posted genius, and next time I'll make sure to give you a shout out from EJ when I contribute there even though I really "don't know the full details" about my testing apparently.
Quote:
Also, if one person makes a comment saying your wrong, but others back you, then you probaly are right
Like the OP? He was told he was wrong, but was backed? And the spec has been "viable" for months, it just took that long to get here and still the main people on this forum didn't seem to know about it, even though they claim read EJ.
Quote:
The people I'm talking about are people like Theo, Myteddy, Thomas, Mental, Therion, and a few others I might have forgotten. Why would they sit here and discussion crap that they already all know?
This thread just proved that at least one of those people don't know what their talking about. Maybe they should sit here and discuss it, instead of telling other rogues they are wrong when they are in fact right.
Edited, Apr 11th 2009 5:02pm by Boyiee
Quote:
Probably the most humorous thing you've posted ever. The link was posted genius, and next time I'll make sure to give you a shout out from EJ when I contribute there even though I really "don't know the full details" about my testing apparently.
You're right. The link was posted, but I said you just repeat what others have told you without looking into any of it yourself. I think it is funny that you have to go other places and try to flame the community here.
You're right about being rated down for giving good information. Look at Theo's stickies, they aren't rated excellent. Also, if you look at the Sub thread a few posts down, I stated that HaT was the most dps spec atm, and I got rated down. Even when others came in and said it was correct. I don't care about getting rated down when I make a post that is incorrect, but I don't appreciate it when my post is accurate. I don't rate people down for giving good information, and I would appreciate the same respect.
/bye
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Boyiee wrote:
This thread just proved that at least one of those people don't know what their [sic] talking about. Maybe they should sit here and discuss it, instead of telling other rogues they are wrong when they are in fact right.
And like I said, I post the correct information as I have it. If you have other information, then you can post that and I will revise my opinion.
Acting like you've got sand in your **** doesn't help anyone, though. Going to another forum on a whiny rant because "Theo doesn't think I'm smart!" doesn't get you any respect, and actually removes what little respect I did have for you.
And while I may not have had all the information when I did post (and this is definitely in the minority in that I'm wrong), shiv specs don't need discussion right now. If you know how they work, use them until 3.1. If you don't, it doesn't really matter right now, as the spec won't be viable post-3.1.
Boyiee wrote:
and next time I'll make sure to give you a shout out from EJ when I contribute there even though I really "don't know the full details" about my testing apparently.
And yes, your contribution to EJ is fantastic.
Edited, Apr 11th 2009 2:31pm by Theophany
Where did Boyiee's rant come from Theo?
Order of the Blue Garter's forums.
Thanks for posting that information Theo. He PM'd me trying to kiss my ***, and now I read all these lies he is spreading about what I said. Now I have to PM him back.
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Quote:
/popcorn
Share, damnit!
@#%^ing brave cat.
Or it's got the dogs whipped.
(edited for whippage)
Edited, Apr 11th 2009 11:01pm by Banatu
Or it's got the dogs whipped.
(edited for whippage)
Edited, Apr 11th 2009 11:01pm by Banatu
From the Jersey Shore eh? You do the Guido Dance, broski?
Edit: I just read the Order of the Blue posts...Boyiee, you were getting pounded for positing the viability of 'maximizing your dps for 1.5 - 2 weeks' by switching to shiv. Dude. Drop it. It's dead, and dead. Pointless to even try it with 1, 2 max raid lockouts if you don't already have the gear for it (which is your main point, that this gear is obtained easily). Why spend all the extra effort getting gear for the next 2 weeks when the spec is going to die anyway? I look forward to your future failures on here as well as this new forum. G'nite!
Edited, Apr 12th 2009 1:34am by ThomasMagnum
Edit: I just read the Order of the Blue posts...Boyiee, you were getting pounded for positing the viability of 'maximizing your dps for 1.5 - 2 weeks' by switching to shiv. Dude. Drop it. It's dead, and dead. Pointless to even try it with 1, 2 max raid lockouts if you don't already have the gear for it (which is your main point, that this gear is obtained easily). Why spend all the extra effort getting gear for the next 2 weeks when the spec is going to die anyway? I look forward to your future failures on here as well as this new forum. G'nite!
Edited, Apr 12th 2009 1:34am by ThomasMagnum
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