I tooled my spec for mostly Combat-Daggers. This has been the best build I have had since I built this toon. Key to this spec is Hit Rating & Haste (Crit too...but get great enhancement through gear and spec = 37% already.)
Simple combat Shiv x 5 then Eviscerate (along with CDs.) This spec does not "wait" for the sword spec to proc, so the damage is sustained. With proper glyphs I outperform many of our caster DPS and sword spec rogues. With the new patch, I have had to rebuild my spec as below and exchanged Shiv for Sinister Strike since shiv will be nerfed and no longer crits nor will its poision. I have noticed about 150 dps loss over my original shiv spec...but I am still working out the kinks in the rotation. This spec is set up to maximize on the crits (which flow like wine for me :P.) For a raiding spec, I have found it to be extremely effective. When 3.1 comes out, the glyph of adrenaline rush will be nerfed and will be replaced by the Murder Spree glyph. In order for this spec to work properly, you have to always have a poisoned target. Shiv to drop a dot poison and unload with sinister strike (hopefully procing an extra dot or 2) then Evis. I have started adding an occasional slice and dice and backstab to see if I can get my numbers up to where they were before with shivs...but the the main attack rotation is what truly works best at the moment.
Assassination Talents - 17 point(s)
Improved Eviscerate - rank 3/3
Malice - rank 5/5
Ruthlessness - rank 3/3
Vigor - rank 1/1
Lethality - rank 5/5
Combat Talents - 51 point(s)
Improved Sinister Strike - rank 2/2
Dual Wield Specialization - rank 5/5
Deflection - rank 3/3
Precision - rank 5/5
Riposte - rank 1/1
Close Quarters Combat - rank 5/5
Aggression - rank 5/5
Blade Flurry - rank 1/1
Weapon Expertise - rank 2/2
Blade Twisting - rank 2/2
Vitality - rank 3/3
Adrenaline Rush - rank 1/1
Combat Potency - rank 5/5
Unfair Advantage - rank 2/2
Surprise Attacks - rank 1/1
Savage Combat - rank 2/2
Prey on the Weak - rank 5/5
Murder Spree - rank 1/1
Subtlety Talents - 3 point(s) (ONLY BECAUSE I AM USED AS POINT OFTEN FOR MARKING)
Master of Deception - rank 3/3
The rogues in our guild have all moved into a version of this spec and have seen a massive increase in their dps and overall damage. If you see anything or try it and find a way to tweak it, I welcome any and all constructive criticism. I just want to rock the top of the charts!!!
Edited, Apr 8th 2009 2:27pm by AssailantDeathcaller
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Post a WWS of your DPS and post your armory and we'll go from there.
Until then though, it's not viable. At all. Shiv builds ever have been.
Builds require proof and math for them to be considered viable around here.
Until then though, it's not viable. At all. Shiv builds ever have been.
Builds require proof and math for them to be considered viable around here.
Quote:
I tooled my spec for mostly Combat-Daggers.
Have you actually tried 'normal' combat daggers? 18/51/2 uses backstab as cp generator and a 2s/4r cycle with SnD+rupture glyphs(I use vigor as well, but mostly for trash). It will never outperform mut on single targets, but its the best combat spec i've found if you need to have 1 combat rogue for the raid buff(savage combat 2%). On short fights it may also be superior as the cds(bf+killing spree+AdRush)can be very effective.
Sorry, don't have any wws for you Theo, but in the gear on my armory did 4.7k on patch 25man and that was before the Greatness trinket.
Edited, Apr 8th 2009 2:09pm by mahlerite
AssailantDeathcaller wrote:
I tooled my spec for mostly Combat-Daggers.
I stopped reading after this.
Shiv spec is working pretty well actually at the moment, there is a whole thread about the build over at Elitist Jerks which you might want to check out:
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t46832-art_poisons_combat_shiv_build_pve_poison_dps_discussion/
However Shiv spec after 3.1 is a no-go, due to the massive nerf (no crits or poison crits).
In 3.1 go combat, mutilate or maybe even HAT which is showing pretty good numbers (very dependant upon the raid group critical chance however).
Edited, Apr 8th 2009 6:22pm by Jepetto
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t46832-art_poisons_combat_shiv_build_pve_poison_dps_discussion/
However Shiv spec after 3.1 is a no-go, due to the massive nerf (no crits or poison crits).
In 3.1 go combat, mutilate or maybe even HAT which is showing pretty good numbers (very dependant upon the raid group critical chance however).
Edited, Apr 8th 2009 6:22pm by Jepetto
Jepetto wrote:
In 3.1 go combat, mutilate or maybe even HAT which is showing pretty good numbers (very dependant upon the raid group critical chance however).
HAT is currently the best spec for DPS, and will only be better after 3.1.
=( I don't wanna have hats. Free your head, and your mind!
Only means I have to learn a new spec, and that sucks donkey.
ThomasMagnum wrote:
Only means I have to learn a new spec, and that sucks donkey.
What's to learn?
SnD/Rupture/Evis spam.
to recap - cs, env, vanish?
You use WP/WP as HAT, since you don't have Vile/Imp Poisons, so you can't really Envenom.
Shiv is EXTREMELY viable until the nerfs to it.
Did you quit your rogue completely theo? You seemed to bash it without knowing much.
and yes, Combat Daggers @ the one above poster. Please don't be ignorant about trying different things, it obviously works and is very strong.
Although I thought they already put in some of the nerfs to this, Shiv spec combat daggers etc was huge for a while, I haven't heard much since thought it was already nerfed.
Edited, Apr 9th 2009 11:08pm by Boyiee
Did you quit your rogue completely theo? You seemed to bash it without knowing much.
and yes, Combat Daggers @ the one above poster. Please don't be ignorant about trying different things, it obviously works and is very strong.
Although I thought they already put in some of the nerfs to this, Shiv spec combat daggers etc was huge for a while, I haven't heard much since thought it was already nerfed.
Edited, Apr 9th 2009 11:08pm by Boyiee
Boyiee wrote:
Shiv is EXTREMELY viable until the nerfs to it.
Extremely viable around here doesn't really mean extremely viable; viable is generally only used for builds that are "the best".
If it isn't providing as much DPS as HAT in a stacked group or HFB (and possibly combat, but last I checked, combat wasn't as good as the other two), then it's not really "viable".
1. Theo, my cs,env, vanish was a joke.
2. Boyiee - combat daggers, to date in this patch, doesn't provide the dps that mutilate hfb does. Hence my comment. And I don't know any pve rogues in my guild or otherwise that run combat daggers.
2. Boyiee - combat daggers, to date in this patch, doesn't provide the dps that mutilate hfb does. Hence my comment. And I don't know any pve rogues in my guild or otherwise that run combat daggers.
Shiv was giving around 6k dps as posted on EJ, therefore, it was viable. Since that's comparable to HAT and HFB. Most rogues were running Shiv for a while because it was so overpowered, but blizzard took away the crit from it since they don't want it to be a combo point builder.
And yes, Combat Daggers was working great on ptr until it got nerfed. It didn't make it Live, like I said I thought it had gotten nerfed and I confirmed it just now.
When did you last check? Combat is extremely strong if running BIS... and on PTR it's just as high as mutilate falling just shy of HAT.
And yes, Combat Daggers was working great on ptr until it got nerfed. It didn't make it Live, like I said I thought it had gotten nerfed and I confirmed it just now.
When did you last check? Combat is extremely strong if running BIS... and on PTR it's just as high as mutilate falling just shy of HAT.
Boyiee wrote:
When did you last check? Combat is extremely strong if running BIS
Yea, because everyone is running around in BiS gear. Let's be realistic, now.
Most of the people that come here asking for tips and pointers to increase their dps, are not in BiS gear. I can't believe you even used that in your rebuttal.
That is one of the worst rebuttals I have ever seen on these forums.
You will be able to do pretty decent dps with BiS gear, no matter what your spec. That doesn't mean the spec you have is better than the most used or "cookie cutter" specs. I haven't heard of anyone using combat daggers, only CQC fist MH, and dagger OH.
Maybe I am blind, or something, but every rogue I see is either mutilate, CQC fist/dagger, or HaT. I do know what person who is combat swords, because he has the two BiS swords atm, and doesn't like mutilate.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 9:29am by Feyras
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CQC Fist/Dagger is "Combat". I had mentioned Combat Daggers on PTR which no longer will work out due to PPM, because someone said they stopped reading when they saw specing for daggers, I wasn't talking about combat daggers as being "Combat" when relying to Theo. Typically people call CQCFist "Combat" and any variation they add the weapons, "Combat swords/daggers".
I was replying to this:
He said Shiv isn't viable, it is. And he said combat is slightly outperformed by the other 2, it is. BIS or not. In regards to replying to the Theo quote like I was doing, Combat preforms as well as mutilate in 25man's/25man gear, and HAT outperforms both if stacked in the right group.
Hence, "when did you last check"
I never said Combat SWORDS, he said combat, I was replying to "combat" as a whole. Sorry if I didn't specify. It does not require BIS gear, although with BIS it is extremely powerful. Mutilate does outperform it until you have a strong mainhand/offhand like CG or KTreach + Webbed death.
25man Naxx is Puggable. EOE25 is puggable. OS 3D is puggable. Everyone has access to BIS gear the moment they hit 80. It is NOT hard to obtain. It is not something that takes an elite guild to get. There is no reason you can't use terminology like that on these forums. Are you implying that only bad rogues and noobs check zam? I'm pretty sure that Allah has been trying to make itself a credible source for information like other top sites for many games. Therefore talking about BIS gear is fine... In fact, the OP is talking about Shiv spec, this entire thread began with relying on having access to 25man gear.
Combat is pretty strong regardless as long as you have a decent fist and the right offhand, and it will be even stronger in 3.1. Mutilate only barely outperforms it, and that's with bis. I run Mutilate cause I haven't been lucky on CG, but I do have both of the best dagger combos available right now, and outparse every combat rogue I play with. However, those combat rogues don't have a CG either... one day it'll drop, I swear.
Sorry for all the edits I'm flying to get a new egg atm. Still no green drake =/ My reply was so scattered around I had to fix it 1hundred times, I flew over the murlocs like 6 times.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 10:04am by Boyiee
I was replying to this:
Quote:
If it isn't providing as much DPS as HAT in a stacked group or HFB (and possibly combat, but last I checked, combat wasn't as good as the other two), then it's not really "viable"
He said Shiv isn't viable, it is. And he said combat is slightly outperformed by the other 2, it is. BIS or not. In regards to replying to the Theo quote like I was doing, Combat preforms as well as mutilate in 25man's/25man gear, and HAT outperforms both if stacked in the right group.
Hence, "when did you last check"
I never said Combat SWORDS, he said combat, I was replying to "combat" as a whole. Sorry if I didn't specify. It does not require BIS gear, although with BIS it is extremely powerful. Mutilate does outperform it until you have a strong mainhand/offhand like CG or KTreach + Webbed death.
25man Naxx is Puggable. EOE25 is puggable. OS 3D is puggable. Everyone has access to BIS gear the moment they hit 80. It is NOT hard to obtain. It is not something that takes an elite guild to get. There is no reason you can't use terminology like that on these forums. Are you implying that only bad rogues and noobs check zam? I'm pretty sure that Allah has been trying to make itself a credible source for information like other top sites for many games. Therefore talking about BIS gear is fine... In fact, the OP is talking about Shiv spec, this entire thread began with relying on having access to 25man gear.
Combat is pretty strong regardless as long as you have a decent fist and the right offhand, and it will be even stronger in 3.1. Mutilate only barely outperforms it, and that's with bis. I run Mutilate cause I haven't been lucky on CG, but I do have both of the best dagger combos available right now, and outparse every combat rogue I play with. However, those combat rogues don't have a CG either... one day it'll drop, I swear.
Sorry for all the edits I'm flying to get a new egg atm. Still no green drake =/ My reply was so scattered around I had to fix it 1hundred times, I flew over the murlocs like 6 times.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 10:04am by Boyiee
15 posts
Quote:
Everyone has access to BIS gear the moment they hit 80
No.
No? So you can't pug nax25 maly25 or OS on your server? Or are you lying?
KT Maly OS is doable with people in blues, therefore, you have access to it the moment you hit 80. OS 2Drake can be done as well as long as the rest of the group can carry you, and that's really not all the difficult.
When my Druid hit 80, I immediately got into nax25's and now I'm 3/5 t7.5 with a fury of five flights within 1-2weeks ON MY ALT, my DK is about to hit 80 as well and it's going to be no different.
If you aren't pugging these it's your own fault, it's easy, and very obtainable. You DO have access to it as soon as you are 80. Don't have the gear to get into pugs? Start the group yourself. Can't pull 1500-2000dps? Then you are probably doing something wrong. My druid at 77 was doing 1700dps in instances. Stack hit, win. Fresh 80 hunters can pull 3k dps in naxx.
Sorry NorthernRebel, but you are wrong about this. Anyone and everyone can do the instances with pick up groups and without a guild even, as long as you win the rolls when they drop you can get the best available gear in the game to your class (at the moment) shortly after hitting 80. If you have friends, or a guild to bring your alt along, it becomes 100x faster.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 12:00pm by Boyiee
KT Maly OS is doable with people in blues, therefore, you have access to it the moment you hit 80. OS 2Drake can be done as well as long as the rest of the group can carry you, and that's really not all the difficult.
When my Druid hit 80, I immediately got into nax25's and now I'm 3/5 t7.5 with a fury of five flights within 1-2weeks ON MY ALT, my DK is about to hit 80 as well and it's going to be no different.
If you aren't pugging these it's your own fault, it's easy, and very obtainable. You DO have access to it as soon as you are 80. Don't have the gear to get into pugs? Start the group yourself. Can't pull 1500-2000dps? Then you are probably doing something wrong. My druid at 77 was doing 1700dps in instances. Stack hit, win. Fresh 80 hunters can pull 3k dps in naxx.
Sorry NorthernRebel, but you are wrong about this. Anyone and everyone can do the instances with pick up groups and without a guild even, as long as you win the rolls when they drop you can get the best available gear in the game to your class (at the moment) shortly after hitting 80. If you have friends, or a guild to bring your alt along, it becomes 100x faster.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 12:00pm by Boyiee
NorthernRebel wrote:
Quote:
Everyone has access to BIS gear the moment they hit 80
No.
Are you saying there are lockouts or keys in wotlk?
However saying everyone has access to BiS is as vague as saying something is viable. It makes whoever said it an ignorant moron.
Whats vague about it? We can be more detailed for everyone if it helps.
Lets make a checklist:
A) Can you do the instance with a Pug? Yes/no
B) Does BIS items drop from said instance? Yes/no
If answered yes to the above, you have access to best in slot gear shortly after hitting 80.
Let's be more clear with the word Viable as well. Does shiv spec do comparable DPS if not more than Combat(fist/dagger) or Mutilate right now? Yes it does. I'm pretty sure that's much more than just "viable". The only problem with Shiv spec @OP, is that it's being nerfed in 3.1, so enjoy it while it lasts. It was fun and a neat idea but Blizzard does not want us using it. That should help people understand a little better. Sorry if it wasn't as clear before, but it's a pretty simple concept, maybe I just wasn't saying it right.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 11:58am by Boyiee
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 12:01pm by Boyiee
Lets make a checklist:
A) Can you do the instance with a Pug? Yes/no
B) Does BIS items drop from said instance? Yes/no
If answered yes to the above, you have access to best in slot gear shortly after hitting 80.
Let's be more clear with the word Viable as well. Does shiv spec do comparable DPS if not more than Combat(fist/dagger) or Mutilate right now? Yes it does. I'm pretty sure that's much more than just "viable". The only problem with Shiv spec @OP, is that it's being nerfed in 3.1, so enjoy it while it lasts. It was fun and a neat idea but Blizzard does not want us using it. That should help people understand a little better. Sorry if it wasn't as clear before, but it's a pretty simple concept, maybe I just wasn't saying it right.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 11:58am by Boyiee
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 12:01pm by Boyiee
How likely is it to get BiS gear on hitting 80, unless you have a guild with everyone in BiS gear carrying you through content?
Not very. It's going to take weeks, statistically, to get to the point, probably more like months.
Seeing as the spec is getting nerfed in a week or two (or maybe even this coming tuesday), I don't see the point of even bringing it up.
While it may be alright now, it definitely won't be then.
Edit: I understand your logic, but it's misleading (i.e. incomplete) logic. No one is going to get BiS within a week or two of dinging 80 unless they get very, very lucky. Maybe one or two pieces, a few more if their guild is carrying them.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 10:37am by Theophany
Not very. It's going to take weeks, statistically, to get to the point, probably more like months.
Seeing as the spec is getting nerfed in a week or two (or maybe even this coming tuesday), I don't see the point of even bringing it up.
While it may be alright now, it definitely won't be then.
Edit: I understand your logic, but it's misleading (i.e. incomplete) logic. No one is going to get BiS within a week or two of dinging 80 unless they get very, very lucky. Maybe one or two pieces, a few more if their guild is carrying them.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 10:37am by Theophany
Viable isn't a good term. Given the ease of content, nearly any spec is 'viable' if you have at least some skill. Playing around with Vulajin's spreadsheet with my current gear+BiS wpns I found that Mut was a good 7.4%-8.25% ahead of any combat build with 'real' combat daggers next, then Fist/Dagger, and then dagger shiv. The 3 combat specs were separated by 43dps so not a big difference between them. Used WD/SR for Mut(and swapped in mirror for grim toll), SR/WD for combat daggers and shiv spec, and CG/WD for fist/dagger calculations. Used full raid buffs with ap flask, ap food and heroism over a 3min fight.
8% doesn't sound like that much, but its about 450dps. Which is fine if no one is doing the savage combat buff. However, if you have more than 1 rogue in the grp its a loss for them all to be combat spec. As my rogue is just an alt, i leave him combat specced since almost every pug rogue seems to be mut and i haven't seen an arms warr in months.
**did some research on shiv specs, they are doing comparable to Mut dam if you have BiS, need to be poison hit capped, use 18/51/2 and use WD/Hailstorm with both CQC+sword spec. Bunch of wws over at EJs with shiv doing 5.8k+ on patch kills.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 1:16pm by mahlerite
8% doesn't sound like that much, but its about 450dps. Which is fine if no one is doing the savage combat buff. However, if you have more than 1 rogue in the grp its a loss for them all to be combat spec. As my rogue is just an alt, i leave him combat specced since almost every pug rogue seems to be mut and i haven't seen an arms warr in months.
**did some research on shiv specs, they are doing comparable to Mut dam if you have BiS, need to be poison hit capped, use 18/51/2 and use WD/Hailstorm with both CQC+sword spec. Bunch of wws over at EJs with shiv doing 5.8k+ on patch kills.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 1:16pm by mahlerite
8 posts
Thanks for being such a smartass...ThomasMagnum (regarding not reading past my dagger spec)
I was looking for constructive criticism and assistance...glad that point was completely lost on a person like you.
To those who are here to help, I thank you.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 1:48pm by AssailantDeathcaller
I was looking for constructive criticism and assistance...glad that point was completely lost on a person like you.
To those who are here to help, I thank you.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 1:48pm by AssailantDeathcaller
mahlerite wrote:
Viable isn't a good term.
I agree, but it's the most commonly used term in the rogue community for specs.
I didn't mean you could get full bis gear instantly after hitting 80, im not sure where you got that, there are too many people posting and too many conversations going on for any of it to make sense, the replies are getting mixed up or something.
Theo, you said combat wasn't as good as the other 2 specs, I replied that with bis gear combat it's just as good. This had nothing to do with being a fresh 80 and getting BIS the same week... Can you show me where you got that from so I can fix it please?
My logic is not incomplete, this is all facts theo... there are several conversations going on and you are getting my replies towards you, mixed up with my replies towards another poster. Someone else said, this FORUM is not the place to discuss topics like that (BIS), which I think is an ignorant and retarded thing to say honestly. Yes, this forum is a place to discuss it. And my point was that BIS gear is AVAILABLE to you, from the moment you hit 80, therefore bis discussion belongs on this forum. I said everyone has ACCESS to best in slot gear from the moment they hit 80, this is not misleading, it's a fact. There are no attunements, no keys, you can pug every 25man in the game, everyone has Access to it from the second they get 80 and it is not hard to get. It takes some luck on rolls really, that's all. This entire topic is about Shiv spec, which requires BIS end game gear, this is not one of your "I need a leveling spec" threads nor a "Whats a good spec for heroics" threads. This is a 25man raiding spec thread, which typically means the people interested in it should have access to that kind of gear and/or are wearing it.
My alts are gearing out several times faster than my main did since all of the content is puggable now and so many people are 80 to do the instances with. Druid took 1-2 weeks to get almost full valorus, with a bis trinket. This doesn't even require a guild. I never said you could have BIS gear in a week or 2. I was saying that Combat VS. Mute with end game gear is closer on damage meters and should not be overlooked or shunned because everyone else is mutilate, it's RNG determined.
Shiv spec should be around until at least the 21st if not 28th, since arena season will end 1-2weeks prior to 3.1 being released as mentioned by blues. It won't be out on tuesday. Depending on your raid setup, it IS worth bringing it up until 3.1 releases if you want to maximize your damage in your raid. With certain Gear and/or raid setups, it might beat out mutilate for some people, but again, it takes a solid amount of 25man gear to get to that point.
As for Dagger spec, it was a PTR spec only that died due to PPM. There is no point putting it in your spreadsheet. It was only brought up because someone said they stopped reading when they saw combat daggers, which is ignorant and is the downfall of this forum. Combat with best weapons vs. Mute with best weapons the difference is very marginal, and skill and RNG would make the difference of which is actually better. Shiv combat was an even more powerful form of combat, even beating out mutilate sometimes. It's worth speccing if you are combat, it's worth making a thread about.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 3:14pm by Boyiee
Quote:
How likely is it to get BiS gear on hitting 80, unless you have a guild with everyone in BiS gear carrying you through content?
Not very. It's going to take weeks, statistically, to get to the point, probably more like months.
Not very. It's going to take weeks, statistically, to get to the point, probably more like months.
Theo, you said combat wasn't as good as the other 2 specs, I replied that with bis gear combat it's just as good. This had nothing to do with being a fresh 80 and getting BIS the same week... Can you show me where you got that from so I can fix it please?
Quote:
Edit: I understand your logic, but it's misleading (i.e. incomplete) logic. No one is going to get BiS within a week or two of dinging 80 unless they get very, very lucky. Maybe one or two pieces, a few more if their guild is carrying them.
My logic is not incomplete, this is all facts theo... there are several conversations going on and you are getting my replies towards you, mixed up with my replies towards another poster. Someone else said, this FORUM is not the place to discuss topics like that (BIS), which I think is an ignorant and retarded thing to say honestly. Yes, this forum is a place to discuss it. And my point was that BIS gear is AVAILABLE to you, from the moment you hit 80, therefore bis discussion belongs on this forum. I said everyone has ACCESS to best in slot gear from the moment they hit 80, this is not misleading, it's a fact. There are no attunements, no keys, you can pug every 25man in the game, everyone has Access to it from the second they get 80 and it is not hard to get. It takes some luck on rolls really, that's all. This entire topic is about Shiv spec, which requires BIS end game gear, this is not one of your "I need a leveling spec" threads nor a "Whats a good spec for heroics" threads. This is a 25man raiding spec thread, which typically means the people interested in it should have access to that kind of gear and/or are wearing it.
My alts are gearing out several times faster than my main did since all of the content is puggable now and so many people are 80 to do the instances with. Druid took 1-2 weeks to get almost full valorus, with a bis trinket. This doesn't even require a guild. I never said you could have BIS gear in a week or 2. I was saying that Combat VS. Mute with end game gear is closer on damage meters and should not be overlooked or shunned because everyone else is mutilate, it's RNG determined.
Quote:
Seeing as the spec is getting nerfed in a week or two (or maybe even this coming tuesday), I don't see the point of even bringing it up.
While it may be alright now, it definitely won't be then.
While it may be alright now, it definitely won't be then.
Shiv spec should be around until at least the 21st if not 28th, since arena season will end 1-2weeks prior to 3.1 being released as mentioned by blues. It won't be out on tuesday. Depending on your raid setup, it IS worth bringing it up until 3.1 releases if you want to maximize your damage in your raid. With certain Gear and/or raid setups, it might beat out mutilate for some people, but again, it takes a solid amount of 25man gear to get to that point.
As for Dagger spec, it was a PTR spec only that died due to PPM. There is no point putting it in your spreadsheet. It was only brought up because someone said they stopped reading when they saw combat daggers, which is ignorant and is the downfall of this forum. Combat with best weapons vs. Mute with best weapons the difference is very marginal, and skill and RNG would make the difference of which is actually better. Shiv combat was an even more powerful form of combat, even beating out mutilate sometimes. It's worth speccing if you are combat, it's worth making a thread about.
Edited, Apr 10th 2009 3:14pm by Boyiee
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