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#1 Apr 05 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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how does a frost mage NOT have water walking or the equivalent? how bout riding the Water Elemental or something?
#2 Apr 05 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
I very much agree with this sentiment. Seems DK's needed it more, seeing how they are masters of elements. *cough*
I was a bit upset at finding the only real reagent I need are runes for ports. The feathers can be done away with for Feather Fall via Glyph.
I figured all these other things(like Fish Oil) would allow Water Walking. I was wrong.
It's sad how few "nifty" spells we get. Blink is nice for fast travel walking.. but cool down makes it illogical to spend time on. And unlike Druid/Warlock/Paladin, we don't get free mounts.
Kinda blows :/
#3 Apr 05 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Because travel for Mages isn't fast enough?

Give other classes ports and you can have Water Walking.
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#4 Apr 05 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
Yes, because ports help us get across obnoxious barriers or move from town to town(not city) faster...
DK and Pally get movement speed, Druid gets cat form.. Hunters get Aspect of the Pack

Mage gets a taxi service?



Try again.
#5 Apr 05 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
Meh, I'd rather be able to port than move 10-15% faster.
#6 Apr 05 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, because ports help us get across obnoxious barriers or move from town to town(not city) faster...
DK and Pally get movement speed, Druid gets cat form.. Hunters get Aspect of the Pack

Mage gets a taxi service?



Try again.


Because 20% increased speed or the ability to walk on water is better than being able to go from Ulduar to Dalaran in a few seconds without having to use a hearth?

Or being able to get from anywhere on Azeroth to another place in seconds to help a friend?

Or to access the AH?

Or to grab the Shatt cooking/fishing dailies?

Or to be able to set your hearth someplace other than Dalaran?

Try Again.

And, the DK movement speed is a talent. It takes up two points.
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IDrownFish wrote:
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lolgaxe wrote:
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#7 Apr 05 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
I'd rather have a movement increase than portals, cos if I needed to go anywhere id call a mage...oh wait, they wouldn't have portals 'cos they traded it for movement increase and water walking. I would just hearth and use a Dala portal, hmm but now I need to get back to Dala, nvm I'll just call a mage to port me....DAMMIT I've gone cross eyed.

Give me portals to accsess PVP and a HS spot closer to dailies over water walking anyday.
#8 Apr 05 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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meh, i was more of a "Who should freeze the ground underneath them?" thing. the guy that puts bloody boogers on the ground? or the guy that is a veritable Iceman? i can summon water from nowhere, but i can't walk on it.

its all moot why we dont have it since we can make pots to walk on water(similar to making scrolls for hearthing).
#9 Apr 05 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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meh, i was more of a "Who should freeze the ground underneath them?" thing. the guy that puts bloody boogers on the ground? or the guy that is a veritable Iceman? i can summon water from nowhere, but i can't walk on it.

its all moot why we dont have it since we can make pots to walk on water(similar to making scrolls for hearthing).


Because, quite simply, if they used that logic, Mages could do anything.

LITERALLY.

Why can't Mages fly?

Why bother to conjure anything, why not just make the enemy explode?

Why can't Mages teleport anywhere they want, instantly?

Why can't Mages conjure storms (like EVERY major mage in EVERY WC book can).

The reasoning that answers ALL of the above questions? WoW class mages are Battle Mages, not Arcanists. We don't understand subtle fluctuations in magic and ley lines. All we can really do is use magic to stimulate the flow of energy in or out of a target or AoE. We can also handle minor transfiguration (temporary) and some basic conjuration.

But, look at it this way. The only way a Mage could freeze the ground around them while moving would be to cast a spell on themselves, causing heat from the water to flow into them, lowering the temperature of the substance to below 0 degrees celsius. That would cause, over time, MASSIVE amounts of overheating in the mage. Water carries a LOT of energy in it (lowering water by 5 degrees celsius would mean absorbing something like 500 or 5000 calories). And that is per gram of water!

DKs on the other hand, release the power of a rune to cast the spell. Furthermore, their biological make-up allows them to function in many temperatures (they likely will NOT be dying from overheating). Plus, Frost DKs specialize in drawing heat from their enemy's body to speed up their own. The natural frost magics at work within them likely dispel heat naturally as the rune refreshes itself.

So, them absorbing that kind of heat won't kill them (or, at best, make them pass out).

Now, a talented Arcanist could likely craft a spell that would involve using magic (possibly solidifying that around them) and manipulating it so as to move them as they wish. But you have to understand that is FAR more difficult than simply causing a target to heat up or cool down (or launching a bolt of energy in a straight line from your hand, which is how it works in the novels).

Battle Mages are not Arcanists. That is the difference between the WoW mage and the Archmages. The latter trains and studies for years on the effects of magic and its control before ever learning how to caste spells. But, once they get better, they proceed at fast paces and learn extremely powerful ones (being able to levitate things and such). We don't do that--we just learn basic skills and go from there.
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#10 Apr 05 2009 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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Flight: flying w/o wings is not in the game(although i can Slow Fall)
Explode: exploding enemies are not in the game(although we can do Living Bomb)
Teleport: mages have short range teleports or rely on conjuring portals.
Storms: i can make Blizzards.

i don't really know how potions work. but apparently, i can drink something to make me walk on water. i would find it more convenient to just freeze my feet and have that chill the water beneath me(like Frost Armor for my boots). if my Frost Armor can slow someone's movement, i couldn't imagine it taking much effort to freeze water in chilly Northrend, unless the LK put alot of unholy salt in the ponds.
#11 Apr 10 2009 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
I can live without water walking. I come close to the same ability on my Priest. It's nice, but T-port blows it away in overall utility.

What I'd like to see is a Mage ability to remember the last location that you teleported from, and allow you to teleport back to it. Making a Portal back to your last location to bring some friends back with you would be even better.
#12 Apr 10 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
being a mage I would much rather have ports than anything else.
#13 Apr 10 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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The need isn't there now that mounts can swim. I don't see how it would be considered a balance issue at this point, but at the same time, why would they do this for us, it doesn't add anything.

It would be far more useful, game-wise, to expand the places we can port to. With the half hearthstone time, ports are going to be less useful except for those to locations not reachable through Dalaran.

Frost mages need more than "cool" abilities (har har) that are really just fluff.
#14 Apr 10 2009 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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The need isn't there now that mounts can swim. I don't see how it would be considered a balance issue at this point, but at the same time, why would they do this for us, it doesn't add anything.

It would be far more useful, game-wise, to expand the places we can port to. With the half hearthstone time, ports are going to be less useful except for those to locations not reachable through Dalaran.

Frost mages need more than "cool" abilities (har har) that are really just fluff.


Well, they will be in lower demand via trade, but they won't actually be less convenient. Other players just will be slightly less reliant on their neighborhood Mage if they forgot something at the AH just after returning to Dal (I do this SO OFTEN).

Plus, being able to be anywhere a lowbie (alt or otherwise) friend needs help in seconds without blowing the hearth is priceless.

And, consider the times when you run to Shatt to do the cooking/fishing dailies (for achievements/pets). It is so nice to be able to go from Shatt to SW to Shatt to Dal. All other classes (but Shaman) are dependent on other transport because of this.
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
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#15 Apr 10 2009 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
WoW mages are not battle mages. If you want to know what a WoW battle mage looks like, visit scarlet strat. In WoW and in general in fantasy settings, battle mages use strong physical strikes (often augmented with magic) to compliment their spellcasting. I know you just decided this because it makes for a nice explanation, but it's clearly not the case.

You're right about the potential of mages, and why it's limited. As for the spell, it'd be simple - repel heat in a limited area (below the hooves of your mount, or below your feet). I'd assume that's how frostbolts work - you repel the heat in a specific area to cause the water gathered there to freeze. Besides, we already have several spells which freeze anything which is not us that touches us (frostbite, ice armours).

Simple 'lore' explanation? Your mage simply has not taken the time to learn the spell, for whatever reason. Mages don't all know the same spells.
#16 Apr 11 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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WoW mages are not battle mages. If you want to know what a WoW battle mage looks like, visit scarlet strat. In WoW and in general in fantasy settings, battle mages use strong physical strikes (often augmented with magic) to compliment their spellcasting. I know you just decided this because it makes for a nice explanation, but it's clearly not the case.


WoW Mages ARE very similar to Dalaran "Battle Mages."

Would you be happier if I said "Combat-Oriented Mages?"
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
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#17 Apr 12 2009 at 12:33 AM Rating: Decent
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WoW Mages ARE very similar to Dalaran "Battle Mages."

Would you be happier if I said "Combat-Oriented Mages?"


Are they? The only two battle mages in Dalaran are yellers for Wintergrasp. I'm not sure why you believe this. Dathric, the only "Kirin Tor" battle mage you see in action uses a melee weapon. Battle mage means you hit people, too.

So while I would prefer you used that term, I'd still disagree. The only reason you don't see mages learning spells in some musty tower is because it's not fun gameplay (for most people). Plus, Blizzard wouldn't want to put that much effort into giving a class individuality, as seen by lack of class quests. If you can provide some reason why you believe this apart from that it fits your theory neatly, I'll reconsider.

From the RPG book, WoW mages are most like focused mages (or archmages, as you can draw on five to six schools of arcane magic). WoW mages are not especially hardy in terms of taking blows. There's nothing especially combat about us, and our spells are not all simplistic (and, as noted earlier, we actually know quite a lot of them). Dragon's breath, for example, is pretty intricate, at least graphically.

Here's a link: http://www.wowwiki.com/Arcanist
#18 Apr 13 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Are they? The only two battle mages in Dalaran are yellers for Wintergrasp. I'm not sure why you believe this. Dathric, the only "Kirin Tor" battle mage you see in action uses a melee weapon. Battle mage means you hit people, too.


There are Warmages in Coldarra, who carry no weapons and attack enemies you aggro and run into camp with spells.

Quote:
So while I would prefer you used that term, I'd still disagree. The only reason you don't see mages learning spells in some musty tower is because it's not fun gameplay (for most people). Plus, Blizzard wouldn't want to put that much effort into giving a class individuality, as seen by lack of class quests. If you can provide some reason why you believe this apart from that it fits your theory neatly, I'll reconsider.


My entire theory is based specifically from the books and previous games, and is only fueled by WoW. In the books, Mages that had studied magic itself before learning battle magics were able to cast amazing spells (like Rhonin in War of the Ancients or Khadgar in the one where Anduin Lothar dies). On the other hand, the Mages who were far less experienced or who had been trained solely in battle magics (the Warlocks for the Orcs, Sorcerers during the WotA, Casters in previous games Vs. Archmages) were much less capable of the bigger magics. A favorite of the studious Mages was to create a storm and have lightning launch at their target from the skies or from their hands.

So, maybe I am wrong, but my theory does have a lot of support, both in game and the novels.

Though, I will grant that Mages have been treading on the Archmage's tail lately, with them gaining the Water Elemental and always having Blizzard. However, they still cannot manage to simultaneously teleport multiple individuals and must use a reagant to create and/or stabilize the portals they can conjure.

Meanwhile, the idea of a melee Battle Mage is nonexistent (or I should say nearly nonexistent) in the novels and previous games. The closest thing you get is the Spell-Breaker, who only knows how to counter magic. The closest thing I can think of is Rhonin, who is very good with a sword. But spells are still his main form of attack and only learned that craft to protect himself in melee range.

Quote:
From the RPG book, WoW mages are most like focused mages (or archmages, as you can draw on five to six schools of arcane magic). WoW mages are not especially hardy in terms of taking blows. There's nothing especially combat about us, and our spells are not all simplistic (and, as noted earlier, we actually know quite a lot of them). Dragon's breath, for example, is pretty intricate, at least graphically.


There is no doubt that single spells may be quite intricate, but they are also extremely simplisitc. It is not hard to visualize a single dragon of fire asaulting an opponent. But to be able to visualize a spell that will have many small, intricate effects on an object (living or nonlinving) or place is pretty damn difficult. This is what lets Archmages, who have studied for years to do just this, cast the extremely intricate spells that the WoW Mage, who just learned to throw a ball of Fire or Ice or simple arcane energy at an opponent and went on improving these three skills. Living Bomb is fairly impressive for a Fire Mage, since it targets multiple people specifically. And the summoning of a Water Elemental is no easy task (just as summoning an entire feast isn't).

But when you think of how long these Mages have been working, honing there specific crafts (talent respecs aren't really supported lore-wise), it isn't really that impressive. A Fire Mage couldn't turn around and summon a Water Elemental. And there is a high probability he never will.

I could definitely be wrong. But taking the novels and the previous games into account, nothing else seems like an adequate explanation.
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
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#19 Apr 13 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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My entire theory is based specifically from the books and previous games, and is only fueled by WoW. In the books, Mages that had studied magic itself before learning battle magics were able to cast amazing spells (like Rhonin in War of the Ancients or Khadgar in the one where Anduin Lothar dies). On the other hand, the Mages who were far less experienced or who had been trained solely in battle magics (the Warlocks for the Orcs, Sorcerers during the WotA, Casters in previous games Vs. Archmages) were much less capable of the bigger magics. A favorite of the studious Mages was to create a storm and have lightning launch at their target from the skies or from their hands.

So, maybe I am wrong, but my theory does have a lot of support, both in game and the novels.


You should really read that link. A sorceror is not one who has focused more on 'battle magic', but one who still uses their own body as a conduit for magic. It's not that they do not study, or that they have studied 'battle magics', they are simply less progressed in their studies than wizards. Ner'zhul is capable of a great deal of enormously powerful spells as a warlock.

Lightning is the easiest of the elements to command according to the WC2 manual. It was the base Mage attack there. Retconned? Quite possibly. Previous games are a bad source of lore. Besides, the archmage in WC3 only had four spells. We have how many more? They were limited by game mechanics, of course - and so are we. Get it?

Quote:
Meanwhile, the idea of a melee Battle Mage is nonexistent (or I should say nearly nonexistent) in the novels and previous games. The closest thing you get is the Spell-Breaker, who only knows how to counter magic. The closest thing I can think of is Rhonin, who is very good with a sword. But spells are still his main form of attack and only learned that craft to protect himself in melee range.


Illidan is a mage, you know. Er, was, before he got killed.

Your theory doesn't have extensive support, because you just made it up. The distinction you are talking about doesn't even exist in any concrete form, and there is nothing to suggest that WoW mages would be that type of mage anyway.

Lore wise, any mage is incredibly impressive. According to the book on Abjuration in Dalaran, learning a mana shield can take months. In two years (WoW to WotlK), they have gone from apprentice level to killing any number of horribly powerful monsters.

Quote:
I could definitely be wrong. But taking the novels and the previous games into account, nothing else seems like an adequate explanation.


Game mechanics. Unless you are suggesting Kael has but four spells?
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