I was just wondering how some other priest are going to deal with this issue. I am holy speced.
Will you try and stack MP5 gear instead of spirit to have more regen while casting?
I read that they are also going to make flask last 1 hour not 2. We can only use 1 in a instance I believe, does this mean only 1 for a night in Naxx? If so how will you compensate for this?
When doing heroics now I sometimes go oom because of having to spam heals on people. With players trying to do instances way before they have the gear will you be more picky about what group you join?
For holy the are taken away the 25% return for over healing and giving us a little more regen for seconds only, which will only give us very little mana back with the new system.
I do not want to have endless mana, but I also do not want the added stress of trying to heal with no mana.
I would hate to have to roll a dps because of over stress from trying to heal, I play this game for fun and enjoyment.
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Preparing for mana regenFollow
20 posts
what did you do during TBC?
I say this because i recently rolled priest and am now 61 lvling steadily towards 80. Coming from being a dps my entire 2.5 yrs playing, I dont know what it was like then and now to heal.
I seem to remember MANY occasions lvling and doing heroics at 70, and raiding into t5 where the healer went oom because of ohhh any number of reasons; squishy tank, crappy dps, healer itself being crappy.
So is this really gonna be that big of an issue? The way i've read/seen so far is that it just wont be easy spam mode anymore, and i wish they would do the same thing to dps, but meh dif point.
someone answer his/my question and call me stupid
I say this because i recently rolled priest and am now 61 lvling steadily towards 80. Coming from being a dps my entire 2.5 yrs playing, I dont know what it was like then and now to heal.
I seem to remember MANY occasions lvling and doing heroics at 70, and raiding into t5 where the healer went oom because of ohhh any number of reasons; squishy tank, crappy dps, healer itself being crappy.
So is this really gonna be that big of an issue? The way i've read/seen so far is that it just wont be easy spam mode anymore, and i wish they would do the same thing to dps, but meh dif point.
someone answer his/my question and call me stupid
Well, Sly,
Depends if he means OOM during or after the pull.
There's no shame in having to sit and sip some Honeymint Tea, that's what it's there for, afterall :3. However, sipping your Honeymint Tea on the once-again mangled corpses of your teammates after consistently blowing through your full mana pool on trash mobs...well..that's another story.
I wouldn't re-roll just yet.
While Spirit's effect has been shaved 40%, our in combat Mana restoration has been improved. Meditation is moving from 30% to 50%. Shadowfiend is getting a nice survivability buff, a speed buff, restores mana for hits instead of damage, and will return 5% of mana pool instead of 4%. Hymn of Hope is getting retooled to only effect the 3 lowest mana pools of the raid, but it increases their mana pool 20% before replenishing 3% of it. This gives more mana back to the members who really need it instead of sprinkling mana throughout the raid with crossed fingers. With any luck, timed right, one of these 3 is you.
Because the nature of mana regen is subject to playstyle, gear, and circumstance, it will probably take a few weeks of post-patch experimentation before we really understand the full extent of this change, and how best to deal with it.
But I have done a few things lately with this mana regen change in mind.
I've been eyeing my Overhealing on Recount for a good few weeks now. I used to flirt with the mid-30%'s on Heroics, now I've managed to get that down to a modest 10-15%. Raids are still in the 20-30% range, but I imagine that's just the nature of the beast.
I've held onto items with MP5 and Spirit I would normally would've given a pass on. MP5 for the straight-up no-nonsense in combat mana regen. The reason I'm remiss to forgo Spirit completely is because Meditation is getting a boost. Whether or not the 20% additional in-combat regen does anything at all to counteract the loss of 40% out-of-combat regen remains to be seen. But it doesn't hurt to be prepared to play around with it.
Edited, Mar 30th 2009 2:25am by Zemzelette
Depends if he means OOM during or after the pull.
There's no shame in having to sit and sip some Honeymint Tea, that's what it's there for, afterall :3. However, sipping your Honeymint Tea on the once-again mangled corpses of your teammates after consistently blowing through your full mana pool on trash mobs...well..that's another story.
I wouldn't re-roll just yet.
While Spirit's effect has been shaved 40%, our in combat Mana restoration has been improved. Meditation is moving from 30% to 50%. Shadowfiend is getting a nice survivability buff, a speed buff, restores mana for hits instead of damage, and will return 5% of mana pool instead of 4%. Hymn of Hope is getting retooled to only effect the 3 lowest mana pools of the raid, but it increases their mana pool 20% before replenishing 3% of it. This gives more mana back to the members who really need it instead of sprinkling mana throughout the raid with crossed fingers. With any luck, timed right, one of these 3 is you.
Because the nature of mana regen is subject to playstyle, gear, and circumstance, it will probably take a few weeks of post-patch experimentation before we really understand the full extent of this change, and how best to deal with it.
But I have done a few things lately with this mana regen change in mind.
I've been eyeing my Overhealing on Recount for a good few weeks now. I used to flirt with the mid-30%'s on Heroics, now I've managed to get that down to a modest 10-15%. Raids are still in the 20-30% range, but I imagine that's just the nature of the beast.
I've held onto items with MP5 and Spirit I would normally would've given a pass on. MP5 for the straight-up no-nonsense in combat mana regen. The reason I'm remiss to forgo Spirit completely is because Meditation is getting a boost. Whether or not the 20% additional in-combat regen does anything at all to counteract the loss of 40% out-of-combat regen remains to be seen. But it doesn't hurt to be prepared to play around with it.
Edited, Mar 30th 2009 2:25am by Zemzelette
From my understanding Meditation is getting nothing. The 50%regen instead of 30%regen will make up the difference of loosing 40% regen from spirit. Hence you gain nothing from it.
At the same time if I use more MP5 gear and drop Spirit I am also going to loose spell power as well. Meaning that I either will have more regen while in combat and weaker heals or just less mana with the same strength heals as I have now.
With a 17k mana pool the extra 1% mana returm from shadowfiend = 170, which really does very little to offset the lack of mana regen while not casting.
Edited, Mar 30th 2009 2:35am by Solohunter
Edited, Mar 30th 2009 2:36am by Solohunter
At the same time if I use more MP5 gear and drop Spirit I am also going to loose spell power as well. Meaning that I either will have more regen while in combat and weaker heals or just less mana with the same strength heals as I have now.
With a 17k mana pool the extra 1% mana returm from shadowfiend = 170, which really does very little to offset the lack of mana regen while not casting.
Edited, Mar 30th 2009 2:35am by Solohunter
Edited, Mar 30th 2009 2:36am by Solohunter
Hmmm. I probably could have worded that better.
I don't mean if 20% Meditation potency increase can counteract 40% Spirit potency loss in an academic sense. I mean applied. Meditation and by extension Spirit might have more value simply because it's managed to hold it's place while Rapture lost ground. It might not have more actual value, we just might have to depend on it more.
Also. I meant 5% per hit.
Granted, all by itself it's still not a life-changing amount.
The in-combat-regen changes are not a remedy, but a balm. Blizzard wouldn't go to all the trouble of nerfing mana regen by tweaking out-of-combat-regen just to completely negate that by making the in-combat-regen so potent they're back at square 1. The idea behind this change is that the abundance of mana had effectively robbed it of any real value, and in accordance we were practically throwing it away.
We might have to change how we do things around here. Maybe we can't spam. Maybe we have to coordinate our efforts more. Maybe we have to resurrect crowd control (huzzah!).
But we'll find some way to make this work. :3
Edited, Mar 30th 2009 3:29am by Zemzelette
I don't mean if 20% Meditation potency increase can counteract 40% Spirit potency loss in an academic sense. I mean applied. Meditation and by extension Spirit might have more value simply because it's managed to hold it's place while Rapture lost ground. It might not have more actual value, we just might have to depend on it more.
Also. I meant 5% per hit.
Granted, all by itself it's still not a life-changing amount.
The in-combat-regen changes are not a remedy, but a balm. Blizzard wouldn't go to all the trouble of nerfing mana regen by tweaking out-of-combat-regen just to completely negate that by making the in-combat-regen so potent they're back at square 1. The idea behind this change is that the abundance of mana had effectively robbed it of any real value, and in accordance we were practically throwing it away.
We might have to change how we do things around here. Maybe we can't spam. Maybe we have to coordinate our efforts more. Maybe we have to resurrect crowd control (huzzah!).
But we'll find some way to make this work. :3
Edited, Mar 30th 2009 3:29am by Zemzelette
I am undecided, I have gear mainly focused towards MP5 as I am disc specced and rarely come out of 5SR however a lot of cloth healing gear does have spirit on so I do still have a fair chunk. The spirit nerf I think will be a bit meh for me BUT the Rapture nerf is going to hit me hard. I don't mind them making me work for my mana but some fights are already harsh on mana pools and I think with the "one potion per fight" rule we may all be screwed for a while.
I have always watched my overheal and I do have this quite low now but I think a lot of us will need to relearn how to heal in some ways swapping Glyphs and changing rotations. However Penance on shorter cooldown will help me as I can use this more mana efficient heal and not have to rely on others as much. The only problem with Penance healing is stopping other new healers from panicing and healing my tank when he goes towards 50%/60% health...
I have always watched my overheal and I do have this quite low now but I think a lot of us will need to relearn how to heal in some ways swapping Glyphs and changing rotations. However Penance on shorter cooldown will help me as I can use this more mana efficient heal and not have to rely on others as much. The only problem with Penance healing is stopping other new healers from panicing and healing my tank when he goes towards 50%/60% health...
In-combat regen is not changing. The changes to Meditation are there to insure that the spirit nerf only affects OO5SR regen. So in combat, Spirit is just as good as it always was. Furthermore, as Holy you get a spellpower boost from it. I'll be keeping my Spirit gear.
You can take all the flasks you want. This will save you having to take one when you've only got an hour left and waste half of it.
As others have said, it's okay to stop and drink. :) The changes to Shadowfiend will make it easier to sustain your mana for the duration of boss fights.
I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude toward the regen changes, but honestly, I wasn't doing a whole lot of cheating the 5SR anymore anyway, so I'm not that worried about it.
Also, stack crit. It's a great regen stat for Holy.
You can take all the flasks you want. This will save you having to take one when you've only got an hour left and waste half of it.
As others have said, it's okay to stop and drink. :) The changes to Shadowfiend will make it easier to sustain your mana for the duration of boss fights.
I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude toward the regen changes, but honestly, I wasn't doing a whole lot of cheating the 5SR anymore anyway, so I'm not that worried about it.
Also, stack crit. It's a great regen stat for Holy.
As far as I'm concerned this is a good change. It makes it a little more interesting than things are at present. Overall as Teacake said, it won't affect our mana regeneration THAT much. In addition the Ulduar gear will have more crit on it giving bonus mana efficiency. Even if all of that fails you can just switch from a spellpower flask to a mp5 flask (I haven't used a regen flask for anything in wotlk yet)
I'm going with Teacake on this for the holy spec. Spirit will definitely lose worth but I'm thinking it'll still be valuable enough to get for holy priests. For disc priests, the stat will be probably become even more worthless and I've been replacing any spirit on my gear with mp5 whenever possible. As for now however, we can't be too certain yet until the patch comes out. By that time I'll be asking everybody's opinion on the matter anyway, as my guide will then probably need a huge overhaul.
On the flask issue;
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/13/8136495630-310-ptr-patch-notes.html
Which basically means that you'll be buying 2 flasks for the price of one from now on, and you'll be able to use as much as you like in a Naxx run.
On the flask issue;
Quote:
All flasks now last 1 hour. To compensate, all flask recipes will provide 2 flasks for the same material cost.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/13/8136495630-310-ptr-patch-notes.html
Which basically means that you'll be buying 2 flasks for the price of one from now on, and you'll be able to use as much as you like in a Naxx run.
I'm not worried about any of this. Mana regeneration has been so good that you could afford to spam-heal without ever thinking twice about it, and if you are/were actually taking steps to get or stay outside 5SR for regeneration in WoTLK you did so out of habit, not necessity.
Spirit won't change in value, but Intellect is going to become even more important thanks to all Replenishment being a percentage of your mana pool, so that's about the only thing to look out for.
After all though, its not going to turn anything around dramatically. We'll still be out looking for the same pieces of cloth, get the same kind of enchants, and whether a mere handful of gems are going to make a major difference in the way you're playing the game remains debatable.
Spirit won't change in value, but Intellect is going to become even more important thanks to all Replenishment being a percentage of your mana pool, so that's about the only thing to look out for.
After all though, its not going to turn anything around dramatically. We'll still be out looking for the same pieces of cloth, get the same kind of enchants, and whether a mere handful of gems are going to make a major difference in the way you're playing the game remains debatable.
I am disc specced, and in heroics, I am usually back to 100% mana by the time the party moves from one pull to the next, boss fights included. Will the mana regen change just cause me to drink between pulls? For the most part, my mana never drops below 10k (bosses) or 15k (trash) and most runs I don't stop to drink at all.
Friarduck wrote:
I am disc specced, and in heroics, I am usually back to 100% mana by the time the party moves from one pull to the next, boss fights included. Will the mana regen change just cause me to drink between pulls?
The change to mana regen won’t be a huge difference to you as a Discipline priest, since you probably didn’t rely on escaping the 5 second rule the way holy priests could. However, there’s a huge change to Rapture that will probably go live. No longer will this talent refund mana when you cast Penance or Greater Heal or Flash Heal, and no longer will it return mana when your Divine Aegis absorbs damage. Now it will only return mana when one of your shields goes down, and there’s a 12-second cooldown on how often that will happen. You will see the difference in your mana pool.
I've been giving this a bit of thought, and my answer to mana management for discipline is... MORE CRIT!!
Why, you may ask, is crit a tool to keep that mana? Simply put- Divine Aegis.
When I consider ways to improve my efficiency, the first thing that comes to mind is reducing overheal. When patch day comes DA will stack up to 10k (125 * caster level). A crit heal usually lends itself itself to overheal, and refreshing or overwriting DA (whichever it is, still not sure) was also basically overheal.
With the new and improved DA, the MT could theoretically receive a 10k boost in effective health. Similar to a warrior's Last Stand, except it is top-end health and is consumed first. In practice, it would be more like many mini Last Stands since it would be incredibly inefficient if you ever reached a 10k bubble. More importantly, DA procs converts overheal into effective healing which boosts efficiency. Multiple procs will improve that efficiency.
Along these lines, improperly used, PW:S can cause a hit to efficiency. A non-absorbed bubble not only returns no mana, but it also has the chance of trapping PoM within it. Best case scenario would be to shield a target just after it hops to allow PoM to find targets that need healing. With a DA proc from PoM, this is done automatically.
Why, you may ask, is crit a tool to keep that mana? Simply put- Divine Aegis.
When I consider ways to improve my efficiency, the first thing that comes to mind is reducing overheal. When patch day comes DA will stack up to 10k (125 * caster level). A crit heal usually lends itself itself to overheal, and refreshing or overwriting DA (whichever it is, still not sure) was also basically overheal.
With the new and improved DA, the MT could theoretically receive a 10k boost in effective health. Similar to a warrior's Last Stand, except it is top-end health and is consumed first. In practice, it would be more like many mini Last Stands since it would be incredibly inefficient if you ever reached a 10k bubble. More importantly, DA procs converts overheal into effective healing which boosts efficiency. Multiple procs will improve that efficiency.
Along these lines, improperly used, PW:S can cause a hit to efficiency. A non-absorbed bubble not only returns no mana, but it also has the chance of trapping PoM within it. Best case scenario would be to shield a target just after it hops to allow PoM to find targets that need healing. With a DA proc from PoM, this is done automatically.
3 posts
I have been stacking spirit for as long as I can remember. I have a disc/holy hybrid where i have 23 points in disc for the improved div spirit...and all my gear is spirit heavy. Also, Im a JC and I use 3 JC only gems (the maximum) and they are all 27 spirit gems. The rest is a mix of spell power, spirit and intel...with one crit gem. Should I rethink this? Having the 3 JC only gems is a nice boost because I can better customize my stats, so I should be able to maximise their usage after the patch. Currently I sit at 2200 sp and 1200mp/5 unbuffed with well over 1k spirit.
RugBug wrote:
I have been stacking spirit for as long as I can remember.... Should I rethink this? ...Currently I sit at 2200 sp and 1200mp/5 unbuffed with well over 1k spirit.
I would not advise healing priests to gem or enchant for spirit. Intellect is a stronger stat for mana regeneration, especially given replenishment in your group, but also because of mana pool percent returns on shadowfiend, hymn of hope and the like.
If my priest were a jewelcrafter, I would probably put three spellpower dragon’s eyes in my gear’s blue/yellow slots, effectively increasing my red slots. If I had mana regeneration problems come the new patch, I would probably start maintaining a second set of gear that favored intellect over spell power, swapping items before long boss fights.
That said, your gear is good enough that I imagine at this point you could probably gem for agility and still do fine in Uldular.
Mmm.
I agree with the popular Intellect love and Spirit hate dichotomy...to a point. There's a difference between worthless and worth less. Now moreso that Rapture isn't worth neigh everything.
Case 1 is someone who stacked 133 Intellect to maximize his mana regen through Shadowfiend.
Case 2 is someone who stacked 133 Spirit to maximize his mana regen through Meditation/O5SR.
In the case of Case 1: 133 Intellect
1 Intellect equals an increase to your mana pool by 15 mana. Shadowfiend attacks 10 times, for a mana regain of 5% of your mana pool per hit. If you have a 15,000 mana pool Shadowfiend would return 750 mana per strike or 7,500 overall. If you had a mana pool of 17,000 mana Shadowfiend would return 850 mana per strike or 8,500 overall. If you had a mana pool of 19,000 mana Shadowfiend would return 950 mana per strike or 9,500 mana overall.
I'm aware he technically has 11 attacks, but I'm also equally aware the little twit likes to be *comfortable* before he can get down to business and wastes that first potential swipe circling a spot on the rug.
So,
In the case of Case 2: 133 Spirit
With full Meditation and Intellect of an approachable 500.
The Mana regen formula is this:
The part that got nerfed is the Base_Regen, which was formerly 0.005575 at 80 and now is 40% lower at .003345.
MP5 = 5 * (.001 + 22.3606798) * 133 * .003345
MP5 = 5 * (22.3616789) * 133 * .003345
MP5 = 111.8083945 * 133 * .003345
MP5 = 14870.5164685 * .003345
MP5 = 49.74 Rounded up = 50
Roughly 133 Spirit (given 500 intellect)= 50 MP5 O5SR = 25 MP5 I5SR with Meditation.
To put this into perspective, shadowfiend has a cooldown of 5 minutes.
There are 60 5-second-ticks in 5 minutes.
133 Intellect would net you an additional 1,000 mana from Shadowfiend.
133 Spirit would net you and additional 1,500 mana I5SR / 3,000 mana O5SR with Meditation.
Now this isn't meant to say Spirit > Int.
Afterall while the Mana Regen formula mostly depends on Spirit, it does include Intellect to a lesser degree. There are more % based abilities I didn't go into: such as Hymn of Hope and the new Rapture. Intellect increases the Mana you have to work with before going OOM at the start of a fight, and increases your Critical Strike. Shadowfiend and Hymn of Hope restore alot of mana in a short period of time of your choosing, while Spirit ticking a little bit all the time means it becomes moot when you have full mana. Then again, Shadowfiend and Rapture cost mana to make mana - Spirit is free. Having mana replenishment under your control, also means it's your responsibility to remember to push the button every 5 minutes, while Spirit will happily tick away no matter what your doing.
Same can be said for +MP5, sans the O5SR potency.
What I'm trying to say here, is that everything has an upside and a downside, Mana Regen via Intellect and Mana Regen via Spirit (and even Mana Regen via Critical Strike) are no exception. Trying to look at the solution to mana as one particular one-trick-pony, is not recognizing that all these mechanics exist in balance. And the optimal solution will be less A, B, or C but D: All of the Above.
Edited, Mar 31st 2009 5:54pm by Zemzelette
Edited, Mar 31st 2009 6:47pm by Zemzelette
Edited, Mar 31st 2009 8:35pm by Zemzelette
I agree with the popular Intellect love and Spirit hate dichotomy...to a point. There's a difference between worthless and worth less. Now moreso that Rapture isn't worth neigh everything.
Case 1 is someone who stacked 133 Intellect to maximize his mana regen through Shadowfiend.
Case 2 is someone who stacked 133 Spirit to maximize his mana regen through Meditation/O5SR.
In the case of Case 1: 133 Intellect
1 Intellect equals an increase to your mana pool by 15 mana. Shadowfiend attacks 10 times, for a mana regain of 5% of your mana pool per hit. If you have a 15,000 mana pool Shadowfiend would return 750 mana per strike or 7,500 overall. If you had a mana pool of 17,000 mana Shadowfiend would return 850 mana per strike or 8,500 overall. If you had a mana pool of 19,000 mana Shadowfiend would return 950 mana per strike or 9,500 mana overall.
I'm aware he technically has 11 attacks, but I'm also equally aware the little twit likes to be *comfortable* before he can get down to business and wastes that first potential swipe circling a spot on the rug.
So,
Quote:
133 Intellect = 2,000 mana pool = 100 additional mana per swipe = 1,000 mana per shadowfiend.
In the case of Case 2: 133 Spirit
With full Meditation and Intellect of an approachable 500.
The Mana regen formula is this:
Quote:
Quote:
MP5 = 5 * (.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * Base_Regen) rounded up
The part that got nerfed is the Base_Regen, which was formerly 0.005575 at 80 and now is 40% lower at .003345.
MP5 = 5 * (.001 + 22.3606798) * 133 * .003345
MP5 = 5 * (22.3616789) * 133 * .003345
MP5 = 111.8083945 * 133 * .003345
MP5 = 14870.5164685 * .003345
MP5 = 49.74 Rounded up = 50
Quote:
Roughly 133 Spirit (given 500 intellect)= 50 MP5 O5SR = 25 MP5 I5SR with Meditation.
To put this into perspective, shadowfiend has a cooldown of 5 minutes.
There are 60 5-second-ticks in 5 minutes.
Quote:
133 Intellect would net you an additional 1,000 mana from Shadowfiend.
133 Spirit would net you and additional 1,500 mana I5SR / 3,000 mana O5SR with Meditation.
Now this isn't meant to say Spirit > Int.
Afterall while the Mana Regen formula mostly depends on Spirit, it does include Intellect to a lesser degree. There are more % based abilities I didn't go into: such as Hymn of Hope and the new Rapture. Intellect increases the Mana you have to work with before going OOM at the start of a fight, and increases your Critical Strike. Shadowfiend and Hymn of Hope restore alot of mana in a short period of time of your choosing, while Spirit ticking a little bit all the time means it becomes moot when you have full mana. Then again, Shadowfiend and Rapture cost mana to make mana - Spirit is free. Having mana replenishment under your control, also means it's your responsibility to remember to push the button every 5 minutes, while Spirit will happily tick away no matter what your doing.
Same can be said for +MP5, sans the O5SR potency.
What I'm trying to say here, is that everything has an upside and a downside, Mana Regen via Intellect and Mana Regen via Spirit (and even Mana Regen via Critical Strike) are no exception. Trying to look at the solution to mana as one particular one-trick-pony, is not recognizing that all these mechanics exist in balance. And the optimal solution will be less A, B, or C but D: All of the Above.
Edited, Mar 31st 2009 5:54pm by Zemzelette
Edited, Mar 31st 2009 6:47pm by Zemzelette
Edited, Mar 31st 2009 8:35pm by Zemzelette
Zemzelette wrote:
What I'm trying to say here, is that everything has an upside and a downside, Mana Regen via Intellect and Mana Regen via Spirit (and even Mana Regen via Critical Strike) are no exception. Trying to look at the solution to mana as one particular one-trick-pony, is not recognizing that all these mechanics exist in balance. And the optimal solution will be less A, B, or C but D: All of the Above.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Stacking a particular aspect creates an imbalanced character. In an earlier post, I extolled the value of crit regarding Divine Aegis. I hope it doesn't read as crit > all other stats. I certainly wouldn't tell someone to get as much crit as possible and disregard their other stats.
Achieving a balanced toon is one of the challenges in this game that I enjoy. It would be nice if you could toss out a 1 second Flash Heal and have 40% crit, but you wouldn't be able to maintain healing for very long. Your shadowfiend would probably go on strike!
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