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#14177 Mar 28 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I personally have an absolute hatred for variable aperture lenses. I find them incredibly frustrating and unreliable to work with because I tend to photograph at the widest aperture so often.
And just looking at the one site, a 70-200mm F4 is only slightly more expensive than an 18-200mm f3.5-5.6, a Tamron 28-105 f2.8 is a little cheaper. I'd go with either of those over the 18-200 in a heartbeat.

The 70-200 is a great lens, but it's not multi purpose at all.

the 28-105 is ok, but again, doesn't really give you wide angle or zoom, so again fails my criteria for being multipurpose.

What don't you like about the variable aperture lenses exactly? Your camera should automatically use the widest aperture possible if you tell it to. I suppose if you go from full wide angle to full zoom you'll have to adjust your shutter speed or ISO to compensate, but I don't know that I find that so aggravating. Again, this isn't advice geared towards someone who is planning on doing this professionally.
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#14178 Mar 28 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
lolgaxe wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Oh, and I don't have the upper body strength to do push ups. >.> I have to do the modified variety where you bend your knees and push yourself up and down from there instead of your feet.
That's fine. When doing them keep one leg down and lift the other leg completely off the ground, do as many as you can, then alternate. I've found the fastest way to get definition is through alternating the way you do things to keep your muscles from becoming accustomed to what you're doing. While I was in Afghanistan I took the P90x classes three times a week, because ... well, it was available and I didn't really have anything else to do but exercise. Tore me a new @#%^, lol, but by the time I got back it was the best I ever looked. I've since lost some of the definition because I have options of things to do, but overall I'd highly recommend it.


Okay thanks, I'll give that a try next time I do push ups. We have three DVD's with some P90x programs on them, but I haven't tried them yet. Frankly, they intimidate me, lol. My sister has done a few of them, and one of them made her physically sick the first time she did it. I have enough of a problem with that already thanks to my medication for ADD, I don't need any extra help getting sick.
#14179 Mar 28 2012 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
What don't you like about the variable aperture lenses exactly? Your camera should automatically use the widest aperture possible if you tell it to. I suppose if you go from full wide angle to full zoom you'll have to adjust your shutter speed or ISO to compensate, but I don't know that I find that so aggravating. Again, this isn't advice geared towards someone who is planning on doing this professionally.
The fact that zooming in or out means my aperture changes which means my sharp depth changes and my lighting changes.
The first is just really annoying since your sharp depth is such a massive part of your photo and the second is infuriating if you're in low light situations where you're pushing the limits of your camera (Which I happen to be in relatively often).

And I know neither of the lenses I listed is as flexible as the 18-200, but I find the quality loss that comes with high flexibility to be too big to be worth it. I'll take a few steps forwards or backwards instead.
The bigger the zoom range of a lens the more movement of glass. More movement equals more errors.
#14180 Mar 28 2012 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Little kids are awesome. Smiley: grin
They're great once they start being little people instead of little babies.


I'm a fan of the phase where they can sleep thru the night, but haven't learned to crawl yet.


That is exactly where my son Harry has been for a few months now :) Not for much longer though, he is starting to pull himself along the ground now. Time for the dog to be afraid!


#14181 Mar 28 2012 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
What don't you like about the variable aperture lenses exactly? Your camera should automatically use the widest aperture possible if you tell it to. I suppose if you go from full wide angle to full zoom you'll have to adjust your shutter speed or ISO to compensate, but I don't know that I find that so aggravating. Again, this isn't advice geared towards someone who is planning on doing this professionally.
The fact that zooming in or out means my aperture changes which means my sharp depth changes and my lighting changes.
The first is just really annoying since your sharp depth is such a massive part of your photo and the second is infuriating if you're in low light situations where you're pushing the limits of your camera (Which I happen to be in relatively often).

And I know neither of the lenses I listed is as flexible as the 18-200, but I find the quality loss that comes with high flexibility to be too big to be worth it. I'll take a few steps forwards or backwards instead.
The bigger the zoom range of a lens the more movement of glass. More movement equals more errors.

All excellent points, which I agree with, and which the majority of amateur photographers won't notice, because they're not paying attention to them in the first place. I use my 18-200 in candid unplanned photo situations when there is good light, or I don't mind using a flash. Most of the time I put at least some of the settings on automatic, although I very rarely go full auto. The flexibility given by the 18-200 in these kinds of situations is amazing and completely worth it for me. When I want to take nicer more planned out shots I'll switch to a prime lens, or a fixed aperture lens, as you suggest.
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#14182 Mar 28 2012 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Aethien, since you thought I should look more "noob", I worked on my transmog set:

Screenshot


And I'm buying a Vengeful Gladiator's Shanker tonight or tomorrow because obviously that's the best looking dagger that's been in the game.
#14183 Mar 28 2012 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
The fact that zooming in or out means my aperture changes which means my sharp depth changes and my lighting changes.
The first is just really annoying since your sharp depth is such a massive part of your photo and the second is infuriating if you're in low light situations where you're pushing the limits of your camera (Which I happen to be in relatively often).

And I know neither of the lenses I listed is as flexible as the 18-200, but I find the quality loss that comes with high flexibility to be too big to be worth it. I'll take a few steps forwards or backwards instead.
The bigger the zoom range of a lens the more movement of glass. More movement equals more errors.

All excellent points, which I agree with, and which the majority of amateur photographers won't notice, because they're not paying attention to them in the first place. I use my 18-200 in candid unplanned photo situations when there is good light, or I don't mind using a flash. Most of the time I put at least some of the settings on automatic, although I very rarely go full auto. The flexibility given by the 18-200 in these kinds of situations is amazing and completely worth it for me. When I want to take nicer more planned out shots I'll switch to a prime lens, or a fixed aperture lens, as you suggest.
The majority of amateur photographers won't be using a DSLR though and a micro 3/4th camera (or whatever it's called exactly) is less hassle, loads of zoom, no interchangeable lenses and is much cheaper.
I'm assuming that most people who buy a DSLR care about how the photo looks and not just what's on the photo and thus will sooner or later will notice and care about these things. May as well make that sooner imo.
The other downside to a large zoom is that it makes people lazy and just stand still and zoom in instead of taking a few steps forward while in 9 out of 10 cases, taking a few steps forward will make for a better photo because tele means you lose depth in the photo. Having to move also makes people more conscious of how they're framing their images which again improves their photos.

Also never ever go full auto. There isn't a single reason or situation to ever even consider putting your camera on full auto if you have any idea of what aperture, ISO and shutter speed mean. Fully manual or Aperture priority (Only letting the camera set shutter speed) are all you'll ever need and all a camera is ever to be trusted with.
In the case of the photo this all started with, manual or aperture priority would have taken the image at, say ISO 100, f4 and at 1/200th (Or f2.8 and 1/300th). Plenty of speed to capture it without movement blur, no unnecessary stuff sharp which means a less cluttered background and no noise. (Then all that's left is the **** poor composition)



EDIT: This is what it comes down to, pretty much.
Screenshot


Edited, Mar 29th 2012 1:14am by Aethien
#14184 Mar 28 2012 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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There are a lot of amateur photographers that have DSLR's. I'd say the majority of them do in fact. There is a difference between an amateur photographer, and someone who just wants to be able to take pictures. Entry level DSLR's are aimed squarely at that market.

There are lots of situation where you can't move enough to accommodate having the wrong lens on your camera, and where the convenience of going from full wide angle to full zoom is overwhelmingly useful. Sure in order to take nicer pictures, you have to be aware of the fact that your aperture is changing, but that's far easier to do then actually changing lenses. Also a lot faster. Is it good for every situation? no. Is there a better lens for any given shot? yes. Is it fantastic for everyday shots? absolutely and I would recommend it in a heartbeat. When I'm camping I really don't want to be switching lenses, but I want to be able to take pictures of animals that are out on the lake as well as stuff in the campsite itself.

Also quality here is relative. Sure it's not an L series 20-700, but it's still a very good lens that will take excellent pictures.

FWIW I usually shoot in the mode you mentioned where the camera controls just the shutter speed unless it starts slowing it down too much at which point I'll go to full manual mode. When I want to shoot something where getting around what I'm shooting isn't an issue, I use my pretty amazing 35mm lens. I'm trying to decide what to get for a third lens, and haven't decided yet.

Edited, Mar 28th 2012 10:04pm by Xsarus
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#14185 Mar 28 2012 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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The discussion amuses me, because I pretty much agree with most if not all of the things Aethien is saying about taking pictures, I just don't think they eliminate the 18-200 lens as a very useful part of a photography ********
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#14186 Mar 28 2012 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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[quote=Sir Xsarus]The discussion amuses me, because I pretty much agree with most if not all of the things Aethien is saying about taking pictures, I just don't think they eliminate the 18-200 lens as a very useful part of a photography ****************
I've not chimed in because I don't want to start a flame war. I've been shooting since I was 11 or 12 years old, and while it's never been a serious job, I've made a decent amount of money combining my talents with graphic design, photography, and web design.

I'm in the same camp as you. I have a 28-200 and a 70-300 (I also have an old manual 52 f1.8 that I rarely shoot with except for portraits in a studio). While they're not the best lenses in the world, a good photographer who knows what they're doing with depth of field is generally going to get the shot they want. I feel like I have a lot of versatility in what I can shoot and don't need to carry around a bunch of lenses.

There's a place for every lens that's currently been made. Fisheyes are next to useless outside of art, but people still use them and they're worth the (high) asking price to some people because they perform the function that they need. If someone doesn't know how a telephoto lens affects the depth of field of a shot, it's likely that informing them won't make a difference.

By example, when I tried to explain how an iPhone changes ISO and shutter speed to take a picture, my ex's eyes went out of focus because she didn't care. She liked that it took good photos but didn't care how it got there. She liked playing with my DSLRs because she had a lot more control, but when I told her she should use Aperture priority or full manual, she told me, "I just want a good picture, I don't care about it being perfect".

It's the difference between recording memories and making art, to be honest. A sketch artist is going to have different kinds of charcoal, pencils, erasers, etc. Someone that just draws for fun is just going to have a pencil.

There's no right or wrong; just opinions. If you don't like telephoto lenses that's your opinion Aeth, doesn't mean that Xsarus and I are wrong for owning those lenses.

EDIT: Honestly though, if you're looking for an all-purpose lens, a 28-200 is the absolute best lens I've ever had. I love mine dearly and the extra money you pay for it over something like a 70-200 is worth it to have that much more versatility.

Edited, Mar 28th 2012 10:41pm by Theophany
#14187 Mar 29 2012 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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I shoot pretty much everything with my 17-50mm, it's rare that I wish I had more mm to work with and much rarer for me to grab my 18-105 lens because of that, It's much more common that I'm thankful I can drop to f2.8 regardless of the focal length I'm using. That's why I don't see much value in an 18-200 over the 28-105 f2.8 since they're roughly equal in cost.


And technically I'm an amateur too since I don't make money with my photography. Smiley: tongue




As for what lens, I'd seriously consider picking up either a 50mm f1.8 or a 50mm f1.4, it's just ridiculous how much that smaller sharp depth improves portraits. (And it's not like the 50mm f1.8's $119 will break the bank)
#14188 Mar 29 2012 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
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You do landscapes with a 17-50? Just curious; I know a lot of people that look down on those of us that love landscape photography.
#14189 Mar 29 2012 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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Theophany wrote:
I worked on my transmog set:


Where'd you get that headpiece and shoulderpiece?
Looks great.
#14190 Mar 29 2012 at 3:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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you talk bores me

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Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
#14191 Mar 29 2012 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
#14192 Mar 29 2012 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
You do landscapes with a 17-50? Just curious; I know a lot of people that look down on those of us that love landscape photography.

I pretty much never photograph a landscape at all, it doesn't interest me much and I'd rather use my 17-50mm than use my sh*tty 18-105 kitlens.



Edited, Mar 29th 2012 4:47pm by Aethien
#14193 Mar 29 2012 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
I've not chimed in because I don't want to start a flame war.
Lame.
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#14194 Mar 29 2012 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
Boob.
#14195 Mar 29 2012 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Friar RareBeast wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Little kids are awesome. Smiley: grin
They're great once they start being little people instead of little babies.


I'm a fan of the phase where they can sleep thru the night, but haven't learned to crawl yet.


That is exactly where my son Harry has been for a few months now :) Not for much longer though, he is starting to pull himself along the ground now. Time for the dog to be afraid!




Haha. How old's the little one now? IIRC he was born a little after my youngest. Crawling is fun, they get so excited seeing every new turn. Little Raena has moved on to exploring doors now. She'll crawl over to them, and open, shut, open, shut, open, shut. Perfect cheap way to keep her occupied for minutes, which is awesome.

xNocturnalSunx wrote:
Boob.


Where?
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#14196 Mar 29 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
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It's been a long time since boobs were discussed in this thread.
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#14197 Mar 29 2012 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
Well considering I have some, I figured I'd bring up the topic.
#14198 Mar 29 2012 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
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I love it when people bring them up. Pushup bras are a fabulous invention.

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#14199 Mar 29 2012 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Oh sure, a woman in a pushup bra is considered hot but when I walk around with tube socks in my drawers I'm just a pervert.
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#14200 Mar 29 2012 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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What 17-50 lens are you using? I've actually been considering getting something in that range as a lens for taking pictures inside.

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-17-40mm-Ultra-Angle-Cameras/dp/B00009R6WO/ref=sr_1_15?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1333039520&sr=1-15 looks ok, but I'm not happy with the aperture of 4

I guess I could just pony up the extra money and get

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-EF-S-17-55mm-Lens-Cameras/dp/B000EW8074/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1333039803&sr=1-1

I'm going to go look offbrand and see how they compare to that.

I got http://www.amazon.com/Tokina-Macro-Canon-Digital-Cameras/dp/B0016Q6BXC/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1333039896&sr=1-1 a while ago, and it's phenomenal, but they don't seem to have a similar one for the fixed aperture wide angle.

hmm, http://www.amazon.com/Tamron-17-50mm-Aspherical-Digital-Cameras/dp/B000EXR0SI/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1333040196&sr=1-5 looks ok

Edited, Mar 29th 2012 11:57am by Xsarus
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#14201 Mar 29 2012 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It's been a long time since boobs were discussed in this thread.
Boobs boobs boobs boobs boobs boobs boobs boobs boobs boobs boobs.



Edit: @ Xsarus, Tamron 17-50mm f2.8 with no IS.
It's my cheapo (€350) crop factor alternative to a 24-70 f2.8 on a full frame. (17-50 ends up at 25.5-75 on Nikon, 27.2-80 on Canon)

the IS is what makes the lens go from $350 to $500, I personally don't find it worth it since it's a pretty wide angle lens and I rarely shoot at slower than 1/40th anyway and the lens doesn't weigh much.

Edited, Mar 29th 2012 7:07pm by Aethien
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