dk aggro, death strike, healaggro?Follow

so idiggory, you prefer unholy for tanking?
how about single tps on single targets? i testet unholy on the testserver and ss was realy powerfull.

the healaggro from ds ist not the main threat attack. it is only "bonus"

i agree with you that healaggro isn´t good or important for aoe aggro... that never was important to me.
also the aoe discussion. if you play more 5 man instances the aoe aspect is still and more important. you are the only tank and so you have to bind all the trash to you. here there will be a frost or unholy build the best choice.

but if you go raiding....and that is the ONLY important point for me... you aren´t the only tank. in the 10 man version you are 2-3 and in the 25 man version 3-4 tanks. if there are trashpacks every tank takes 1 or 2 mobs or all the tanks make aoe aggro. so, there is no need to be a perfect aoe tank if the other tanks have good aoe abilities. and in our raids, we have enought aoe aggro from the other tanks. so it is not important for me to be a good aoe tank.
and i don´t want to be a aoe tank. i want to be a bosstank in raids.
and therfor i was thinking about blood. i thougth WotN and vampiric blood, as "oh sh*t" bottom, would be nice for "hard hitter".

i think with 3.1 and the dual specs i will try out blood and and perhaps frost. perhaps 1 ID with blood and the second with frost. so i can see the difference.


1 thing i don´t undestand..... the best dk dd are unholy. but why is the single target threat for unholy tanks lower than the other builds? does rs scale with the other trees better? or is ss to low? or what??

greetings...

edit: the whole discussion is for the comming update 3.1. not for the liveserver...

Edited, Mar 27th 2009 12:56pm by marcloker

ok, thx onesmore for the information. we have only one unholy dd dk in our raid. and he is the most time the top dd. so i thought, and heard, unholy is one of the best top dd builds....





sure, i don´t want to be a tank who can only do one thing. i also want to to help at trashpacks, at adds, or what ever. but the main thing i want to do is to tank bosses. as i said, in our raid there is no need to be a good aoe tank. so it is no problem to be a little bit better in single than in aoe tanking.





i think blood will be a good build for hard hitting bosses. you have will of the necropolis. every damage that will take you unter 35% health is reduced by 15%. with 5% reduce from frost presence and 5% from blade barrier this is a good mitigration for a hard hit.
vampiric blood is a nice "oh sh*t button". 15% more life, in combination with will of the necropolis you can survive a very hard hit. and the 35% more health will help you to generate more health if your health is to low.

sure frost have also good mitigration. frigid dreadplate and the 2% extra from frost presence are very nice..

i think with 3.1 and a few tests in raids we will see the strenghts and the weakness for the new builds. perhapas i will say after 3 raids, i go back to frost. i think i will test bouth builds. blood and frost. and see that i like more.
perhaps in 4 weeks, i play frost and you blood.. or both unholy....nobody knows....^^

greetings

Edited, Mar 28th 2009 9:07am by marcloker

perhaps the thing is that we have enough healer in our raid... so the healing was never the point... the real dangerous are the big hits. so the WothN will be nice...

but, i think this is from raid to raid different... and the personal gameplay...
when i think about it, it can´t be realy said whitch build is "better"... it is a match to the raidsituation. the number of healers, of tanks and such things. and the personal preferences.

boneshild is very nice... but with 3.1. it will ge a cd of 2 min. so, boneshild will be used as a oh **** button, and not as a "always" used talent. because you will nedd it if something is going wrong....
perhaps i am wrong....and it can be used the most time... let´s see

and why will healer wait longer with blood to heal me? the most of time i will be overhealed. as blood, frost, or unholy... the healing will be the same...


but some changes happend...

today i tested my blood tanking build again on the testserver. one build with ob and one with ds. i used the level 83 bossdummy.

the results:

ds: 1500-3600
ob: 2300-4500

this was a great surprise for me. beacuse the last days, the damage of ds and ob was nearly the same.

i don´t like the change... because now i think i have to use ob in place of ds. and to use ob i have us set 13 points in frost. in imp it, black ice and annihilation.
the advantage is that i get morge damage for it and 3% crit...
but it isn´t so important for my rotation... ok, 3% more crit is nice...

but....with ds in my rotation and my build i can set points in morbidity (more damage for dc and better aoe tanking) and ravenous dead (2-3% more str). and with this 2 or 3% more strength all my damage will be increased. and with raidbuffs my strenght will much higher.

perhaps i can compensate the missing damge from ds with the damage increase throuht ravenous dead....or?

but the most important thing is rs. rs is the aggro producing attack. with the build i skiledl ranvenous dead i have more strenght and so hight damage from rs. (i tested it. 200-300 more damage). so i can make more, or the same, aggro with ds...
i only use ob or ds in my rotarion to get deathrunes.
it-ps-hs-hs-ds(ob)-ds(ob)-hs-hs-hs-hs
so, perhaps the lower damage of ds is not so important, because the other points compentate ist....

as i sayed, i don´t want to this. i only want to discuss about it. i must confess that i am maybe wrong in some things.



i never saw it in this way.... i only thought 3% reduced chance to be hit... and not in an higher chance to use rs.
but will this automatically increase my avoid? if i am right, there is no higher valuation in parry or dodge....
if i am right there is only a chance that the boss will not hit me. so, he needs more hit rating. so the boss miss me. and if i am right. i don´t get rs if the boss miss me. only if i doge or parry...

"Only usable after the Death Knight dodges or parries."



sure, morbidity won´t solve my problems for aoe tanking... no question.....

but with suddon doom i cast insatant dc. and with that increase and the glyph it is nice extra aggro.

and the extra str and ap will scale with raidbuffs...


but in the most arguments you are right. and as i sayed. perhaps i think in a wrong way.

i realy have to thing about it. if i really try it... and what changes will come...


but one question... which tanking build will you prefer with 3.1.? frost, unholy? i am realy interested in it...


greetings


p.s. if you want look at ma char.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tirion&n=Tyriell






Edited, Mar 30th 2009 8:40am by marcloker

laste changes...

"Rime now procs from Obliterate instead of Icy Touch."

but i agree... hb and fs are very powerfull talents. it will be interesting to see how it will work in practice. how powerfull it we.... but it sounds great....

i also thought about unholy. ss was really powerful on the testserver. but do you think unholy will have enought single target aggro?
the only thing, i am thinking about in unholy are the tanking talents... there is realy mitigation in unholy...

idiggory wrote:



One could say that in choosing automatic mitigation and letting the healers deal with it instead of putting effort into healing yourself makes frost tanks be lazier. POV I suppose.

One could say that in helping out the team, you aren't making them lazy, you are just being a good teammate.

I'm really curious as to where you are getting one-shotted. I MT 25mans and have never had this happen. And no amount of mitigation helps with Gluth, he still puts you to 5%. Just an example. (FYI, VB + RT right there saves your healers a ton of effort, pop MoB too right before and Gluth can't kill you).

Also keep in mind that Blood has more HP than the other trees (Veteran of the 3rd War) and it does actually have mitigation (Vo3W and Abomination's might increase strength), so that 3% frigid deadplate isn't a full 3% improvement. And Lichborne is about to be nerfed. I'd trade UA for VB anyday (VB is perfect the way it is for tanking).

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kul+Tiras&n=Fizzywidge
I have spent hundreds of gold swapping out one point here and there. And almost as much switching between frost and blood SPECS (not pressences). I leveled as frost and started raiding as frost. My spec could be altered a bit for personal preference, however I like it. I have no issues with AoE threat. Between frost and blood there is neither with an advantage in my experience. The interesting part about it is when I switched from blood to frost the last time (same exact gear), my healers were asking me why I was taking more damage all of the sudden. Not that I was taking more damage, but since I wasn't replacing it, it looked like I was.

I really feel as though self healing is the same as the mitigation (I think I'm going to do the math to quantify each next raid), and the biggest difficulty blood has issues with is multi-target threat, but honestly, work a bit harder (that's what I do), and it isn't really a problem.

For AoE threat, I use pestilence and BB pretty regularly. I open with IT, pull everything into a funnel to me then pop DnD right before they get to me so every second of DnD gets on them. Then PS and Pest. After a couple of seconds, pop BB for some more AoE damage, hit DS for DRs, then . I don't know how 3.1 will affect that rotation with pest not doing damage (less threat now).

I apologize for making this way too long, but I'm just so surprised at the underestimation of blood all the time. You can trash my build, my spec, my gems, my enchants, etc. However you can not argue with the results. I take a beating, keep aggro, and healers never run out of mana which is the only thing tanks need to do. If people like frost better because they like using it better, I understand that. But if people like it just because it's better, then that's just laziness from my experiences.

EDIT: Ok, you can trash 2 of my gems, I've had them so long I forgot to switch the reds to +parry.

Edited, Mar 31st 2009 6:00pm by Gikkers

Personally, I would guess that Blood Gorged is better, because it also gives 10% penetration and its bonus applies to all abilities, not just auto-attacks (which tanks get few of in the first place, because we turn as many as possible into Rune Strikes). There are probably a ton of encounters this isn't good for, as you will be low more often. And it probably isn't as good for progression. But I think, in a normal near-farm fight, you are probably better off with BG.

Also, if you can manage to drop Abomination's Might, you could grab Hysteria and boost your DC by another 5% with Morbidity. While you would lose 2% Str, I'm guessing the increased raid damage from putting Hys on your highest DpSer and the extra DC damage would make up for it. Though, you should only do this if someone else in your raid group can provide +10% AP.

And, one last note. I don't know where you could take them from, but if you don't run with another DK with the talent, Imp. Icy Touch can be some nice additional mitigation. The mobs attack 6% slower.^^ But, if you can't spare the points, it is fine.

[EDIT]

BG gives 10% APen, not 5%. Doh.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2009 9:53am by idiggory

Improved Blood Presence means that, while in Frost or Unholy Presence, 4% of your damage will be returned as health. When in Blood Presence, you will get 10% increased healing.

And Blood Gorged does stack With Sunder/Expose Armor. It gives armor penetration, where both of those abilities just lower the bosses' armor value (I believe). Essentially, your attacks will ignore an additional 10% of a bosses armor. I believe it is applied after the debuff, as well.

So, if a boss naturally has 1000 armor (lolClothBoss), a full stack of Sunder would reduce it to 800 armor. Your attacks ignore 10% armor, so they will act like the boss has 720 armor (not 700, as if it was 10% from the normal value). I could be wrong here, but they DO stack. The higher the bosses' armor, the more you ignore. But, since armor is subject to diminishing returns, this is often about equal in the DpS increase. It is at least far less noticeable.

And, like I said, BG is a 10% increase to all damage (and thus all threat) while above 75% health. If your healers cannot keep you there, then Necrosis is better. However, if they can, you should take BG.

And, about Imp Icy Touch, do you have another DK in the raid who could take it? That would allow you to take Hysteria (for a DpS increase for your raid <you don't use it on yourself>, as well as Mark of Blood, Rune Tap or DRW. I would recommend the latter (none of them provide a threat boost), because it should be a decent DpS boost, even if you only use it for a few seconds. Plus, if you have Blessing of Sanctuary from a Paladin, you should have enough RP to make it much more, without much worry.

If you DON'T have another DK to apply it, I would guess that it is superior to move a point from Improved Blood Presence to Icy Touch. The latter is a 2% reduction in a bosses' attack speed. So, roughly, 2% less damage over the course of the fight. You would probably have to put out a significant amount of DpS to total that. I may be wrong here, though (and that aspect of the talent really shines in AoE, where you can spread the reduction in attack speed to multiple mobs).

Though, another course of action could be to just ignore the talent all together. I don't know how much damage reduction 6% slower attack speed is on, well, any bosses. So, I cannot judge whether or not it is worth putting two points in it over taking other things (maybe putting 1 or 2 in Scent of Blood, if you sometimes find yourself wanting for RP, because you don't have a Pally with BoS?)

You could, of course, leave the build as it is. None of the options I proposed are overly important. A lot of them are just a question of taste. Do you want to reduce a bosses' attack speed by 2% or do you want to boost your highest DpSer by 20% every 3 minutes (possibly twice per boss fight). Do you want 4% reduced attack speed, or 15% on all avoidance to produce an additional 5 RP on the next two hits? Do you want a large runic dump for those times your RP gets really high and you are far enough ahead in threat that two DCs just aren't as good?

Just things to consider.

Well, I don't really have any specific info on DC damage in tank gear at level 80. However, I do know you will want to prioritize Rune Strike over DC most of the time, unless you have a very large lead on threat and can sacrifice 2 Rune Strikes for one DC.

However, one thing to consider is that, with a Glyphed DC and Morbidity 3/3, you will be doing 30% more damage with it, which isn't shabby. I personally would take Sudden Death, but that is without any specific data and just my gut feeling.

Also, don't glyph Morbidity just for the DnD CD. As a single-target tank, you should NOT be using DnD (it is an epic waste of runes without multiple* targets).

With your build, you REALLY need to think about your glyphs.

For one, you really have to think about whether or not losing Glyph of Death Strike is fair. You only need 50% RP to get the maximum addition of 25% damage (HUGE for it being your main attack). Since you don't use DC a lot, as you said, it should be fairly easy to budget for this (even using RS nonstop without touching another Runic Dump should leave you around here, probably, since you aren't AoE tanking and bosses attack slowly).

Secondly, Glyph of Rune Strike just isn't as good as it sounds. Don't get me wrong, it isn't BAD, but there are many other glyphs that would fit better (basically, your Rune Strikes will crit 1/5 of the time this way, should they hit). I would consider whether or not it is worth it

If you are saving VB as an Oh-sh*t button, the extra 10 seconds may not be that valuable to you. It already lasts 20 seconds (which is about 2-3 DSs, which will cause 35% more healing, plus the 5.4%, .04*1.35 because I believe VB works this way, you will get from all the other damage you cause, and your healer's increased totals). I would talk to your guild about whether they want the extended VB duration or something based on Threat per Second.

Also, it is SO EASY to keep a boss snared. Most classes have one, and you can replace IT with CoI in your rotation for one. This means the Glyph of Blood Strike (which also affects Heart Strike) is AWESOME. 20% additional damage on one of the spec's defining moves.

If you can figure out a way to get DC into your rotation, the glyph adds 15% damage to it.

There are other glyphs that apply, so you will need to think about that.

Also, once 3.1 launches, compare the damage/healing of a Pest+DS to a HS+IT+PS, and compare which is higher to determine whether or not the Glyph of Disease is useful. Remember, this has to be used WHILE THE DISEASES ARE STILL UP, making it less useful than it first appears. If you can guarantee a very tight rotation, it is useful (and your diseases will last 21 seconds). But, you have other abilities to use as a tank which will trigger the GCD, so think about it.

Just some things to think about.

And, remember, if you are RSing a LOT, you are only getting a few Auto-Attacks in. Think about whether or not you would prefer 20% on those few attacks or other talents (or a smaller percentage and other talents). For example, you could lose 3 from it for Sudden Doom +2 and BG+1. That will boost overall damage by 2%, and give 3/10 Heart Strikes an additional DC (which has a chance to crit, I believe) with a 30% buff with the glyph. With a 3.0 wep, you will auto-attack 6 times in a 20 second span. You will HS 3-6 times in that. So, would you rather make whatever ones aren't RSs cause 20% more, or gain 1-2 free DCs out of it.

I, personally, feel like the threat and damage will be higher with DC, especially as you take auto-attacks out of the mix with RS.

And, once you get better gear, you will be gaining more and more AP, boosting DC's damage. And Abom's Might means you already will have 10% more.

So, consider it all.^^ Happy pondering and I'm off to class.

Guess they changed some stuff for the PTR.

Right now, the BS glyph also affects HS, and (the last I checked) Necrosis wasn't affecting RS.

And I HIGHLY recomend you do not take DnD. It should NOT be part of your rotation for boss tanking. And Glyph of Rune Strike isn't really that good.

Glyphing Death Coil and fitting it into your rotation is probably the best bet.