Okay, I think I've got a fairly good idea on how to tank and a semi-decent spec (at least I hope so). But a guildy of ours (whom, quite honestly, isn't the greatest tank there is), kept saying that vigilance is only a useful talent if there's another warrior tank (apparently he read that somewhere on Tankspot).
I always assumed it's a really good talent to have, especially if you put it on your high dps for the bit of extra threat production.
Am I wrong to assume this? Is it worth the one talent point to spec into? Or have I been lead astray and I have no clue what I'm talking about?
(Now take into consideration that this tank mentioned never used shield block, always used devastate as his main attack, etc... We finally got him to put shield block into his rotation a bit because he had been taking quite a bit of damage making him difficult to heal.)
Edit: Also, if you peek into my armory, I do understand that I have a buttload of Def that I can get rid of, and am in the process of trying to upgrade equipment and level things out.
Edited, Mar 17th 2009 12:37pm by xNocturnalSunx
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Vigilance?Follow
That tank is an ***.
The damage reduction is the part he's probably talking about. That benefit is really only useful for party members that are suppose to be taking damage, ie offtank. However even then it's only 3%, which means it's pretty minimal and if you really need it your offtank, or whoever, is probably going to die from damage anyways.
I like it for the its threat benefit, especially on players with high aoe, ie dk and mages, and players that don't have threat dumps. The taunt cd reset is nice but I've never really needed that because I usually don't lose threat.
It's a 1 point talent. I would say it's worth it. The main benefit mostly is for high dps with little or no threat dumps. That 10% transferred means they can increase their output.
The damage reduction is the part he's probably talking about. That benefit is really only useful for party members that are suppose to be taking damage, ie offtank. However even then it's only 3%, which means it's pretty minimal and if you really need it your offtank, or whoever, is probably going to die from damage anyways.
I like it for the its threat benefit, especially on players with high aoe, ie dk and mages, and players that don't have threat dumps. The taunt cd reset is nice but I've never really needed that because I usually don't lose threat.
It's a 1 point talent. I would say it's worth it. The main benefit mostly is for high dps with little or no threat dumps. That 10% transferred means they can increase their output.
That's how I saw it. I figure, well a boost in threat for me means more damage from them (the dps). Maybe our other warrior tank can continue talking to him about it. He's the one that had told him in the first place to use shield block too since the butthead tank takes a lot of damage (moreso than necessary).
We've been trying to figure out what he's doing wrong to take that much damage. I mean, my little one is no where near as geared as him and I take less damage (granted I have all of that defense that's going to go away once I get better gear but still).
Thanks for the input though. Maybe if I let him die a few times, he'll start listening to other tanks.
We've been trying to figure out what he's doing wrong to take that much damage. I mean, my little one is no where near as geared as him and I take less damage (granted I have all of that defense that's going to go away once I get better gear but still).
Thanks for the input though. Maybe if I let him die a few times, he'll start listening to other tanks.
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
That's how I saw it. I figure, well a boost in threat for me means more damage from them (the dps). Maybe our other warrior tank can continue talking to him about it. He's the one that had told him in the first place to use shield block too since the butthead tank takes a lot of damage (moreso than necessary).
We've been trying to figure out what he's doing wrong to take that much damage. I mean, my little one is no where near as geared as him and I take less damage (granted I have all of that defense that's going to go away once I get better gear but still).
Thanks for the input though. Maybe if I let him die a few times, he'll start listening to other tanks.
We've been trying to figure out what he's doing wrong to take that much damage. I mean, my little one is no where near as geared as him and I take less damage (granted I have all of that defense that's going to go away once I get better gear but still).
Thanks for the input though. Maybe if I let him die a few times, he'll start listening to other tanks.
Just like many others here who ask for help, you could just link his armory and the guys here will probably find the flaws and suggest was to correct very quick. It's been done before.
I didn't want to be those people lol especially since my main question was whether or not what I was thinking about vigilance was correct =P, but here's his armory.
Luckily he's specced prot right now (because he's gone Fury a couple of times for raids).
Edit: And it looks like he actually picked up Vigilance right now (surprise, surprise). Perhaps he had another warrior tank in a recent raid that he specced into it. I don't know.
Edited, Mar 17th 2009 2:30pm by xNocturnalSunx
Luckily he's specced prot right now (because he's gone Fury a couple of times for raids).
Edit: And it looks like he actually picked up Vigilance right now (surprise, surprise). Perhaps he had another warrior tank in a recent raid that he specced into it. I don't know.
Edited, Mar 17th 2009 2:30pm by xNocturnalSunx
Looks good.
I don't know if the weapon is a bit too fast or may need a little more expertise to prevent parries since I don't know the numbers you have to aim for. My guess is he's probably just fine gear wise, weapon speed and boss parries are about the only thing I can think of that could cause him to take more damage than normal.
I don't know if the weapon is a bit too fast or may need a little more expertise to prevent parries since I don't know the numbers you have to aim for. My guess is he's probably just fine gear wise, weapon speed and boss parries are about the only thing I can think of that could cause him to take more damage than normal.
another benefit of vigilance is its lack of a CD and little "shield wall" like animation+sound effect. this means you can spam it on the most annoying person in your raid to drive them insane (or at least force them to turn off their sound).
xorq wrote:
Looks good.
I don't know if the weapon is a bit too fast or may need a little more expertise to prevent parries since I don't know the numbers you have to aim for. My guess is he's probably just fine gear wise, weapon speed and boss parries are about the only thing I can think of that could cause him to take more damage than normal.
I don't know if the weapon is a bit too fast or may need a little more expertise to prevent parries since I don't know the numbers you have to aim for. My guess is he's probably just fine gear wise, weapon speed and boss parries are about the only thing I can think of that could cause him to take more damage than normal.
If by "good" you mean "terrible". Did anyone bother taking a look at the armory? Because it looks to me like he doesn't know what he's doing. Strength gemming in gloves, breaking a socket bonus for 6 stam in the boots when he could have put a better gem in there to optimize his stats at the loss of only 6 stam, and...oh, that Icewalker enchant on the boots, though I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say they're trash boots or something.
Spec is jumbled at best. 2/3 tactical mastery? 2/3 armored to the teeth and incite in favor of 5/5 cruelty? It's not the worst spec I've ever seen, mind you, but it's very indicative of the fact that the guy doesn't know what he's doing. Nothing about his gearing or spec is "good". He needs to be sent either here, to the warrior forums, or Tankspot to do some reading.
As for him taking more damage? If you take a look at his defense, he's at 538 in that gear set. If he's tanking in that setup, he's getting crit.
FletusSanguine wrote:
Spec is jumbled at best. 2/3 tactical mastery? 2/3 armored to the teeth and incite in favor of 5/5 cruelty? It's not the worst spec I've ever seen, mind you, but it's very indicative of the fact that the guy doesn't know what he's doing. Nothing about his gearing or spec is "good". He needs to be sent either here, to the warrior forums, or Tankspot to do some reading.
As for him taking more damage? If you take a look at his defense, he's at 538 in that gear set. If he's tanking in that setup, he's getting crit.
As for him taking more damage? If you take a look at his defense, he's at 538 in that gear set. If he's tanking in that setup, he's getting crit.
I think you may have looked at him with some dps pieces or something. I'm showing his def at 542.
And apparently (according to him), he has been reading Tankspot, which is why I had brought up the question on vigilance because apparently he read on there that it's only useful if there's another warrior tank (or something like that).
His shield Block Rating is 28,91% ...why bother lifting his shield up manualy ?, he is being lazy ...
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
FletusSanguine wrote:
Spec is jumbled at best. 2/3 tactical mastery? 2/3 armored to the teeth and incite in favor of 5/5 cruelty? It's not the worst spec I've ever seen, mind you, but it's very indicative of the fact that the guy doesn't know what he's doing. Nothing about his gearing or spec is "good". He needs to be sent either here, to the warrior forums, or Tankspot to do some reading.
As for him taking more damage? If you take a look at his defense, he's at 538 in that gear set. If he's tanking in that setup, he's getting crit.
As for him taking more damage? If you take a look at his defense, he's at 538 in that gear set. If he's tanking in that setup, he's getting crit.
I think you may have looked at him with some dps pieces or something. I'm showing his def at 542.
And apparently (according to him), he has been reading Tankspot, which is why I had brought up the question on vigilance because apparently he read on there that it's only useful if there's another warrior tank (or something like that).
Tankspot people have a bad habit of looking at talents in a vacuum, and assuming you have XYZ classes with you at all times, which we know isn't always the case (especially in 10man), and sure enough their prot guide dismisses Vigilance as pointless except when 2 or more tanks have it to run off eachother, lolwut.
I'd advise against using their guides for talents (though most of their strategy-based information is quite good). Have him read over the community information here and at EJ and compare notes perhaps.
Overlord Norellicus wrote:
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
FletusSanguine wrote:
Spec is jumbled at best. 2/3 tactical mastery? 2/3 armored to the teeth and incite in favor of 5/5 cruelty? It's not the worst spec I've ever seen, mind you, but it's very indicative of the fact that the guy doesn't know what he's doing. Nothing about his gearing or spec is "good". He needs to be sent either here, to the warrior forums, or Tankspot to do some reading.
As for him taking more damage? If you take a look at his defense, he's at 538 in that gear set. If he's tanking in that setup, he's getting crit.
As for him taking more damage? If you take a look at his defense, he's at 538 in that gear set. If he's tanking in that setup, he's getting crit.
I think you may have looked at him with some dps pieces or something. I'm showing his def at 542.
And apparently (according to him), he has been reading Tankspot, which is why I had brought up the question on vigilance because apparently he read on there that it's only useful if there's another warrior tank (or something like that).
Tankspot people have a bad habit of looking at talents in a vacuum, and assuming you have XYZ classes with you at all times, which we know isn't always the case (especially in 10man), and sure enough their prot guide dismisses Vigilance as pointless except when 2 or more tanks have it to run off eachother, lolwut.
I'd advise against using their guides for talents (though most of their strategy-based information is quite good). Have him read over the community information here and at EJ and compare notes perhaps.
Honestly I think vigilance is a miracle medicine for bad pugs and all. Makes threat management easier and gives endless taunts to save whoever has poor threat management. For raids it may be situational but certainly useful.
Myself I'm not taking it because PvE is by far not a priority to me.
Quote:
....their prot guide dismisses Vigilance as pointless....
It is fairly pointless. Is it worth the one talent point? Sure, there's not much else to get. Is it really useful at all in most situations? Absolutely not. The most use I get out of it is 3D as an add tank, for free taunts, or on Maly if I feel like being lazy and not pushing max TPS. In most other situations, I just straight up forget to use it, and never really notice that it's not there.
I have a hard time believing shoveling 10% threat off your best DPS and onto yourself is bad in any circumstance, 5man or raid (assuming you aren't using it in the aforementioned ways you described). It means they can go that much further without any need to hit their threat wipe, no?
Overlord Norellicus wrote:
I have a hard time believing shoveling 10% threat off your best DPS and onto yourself is bad in any circumstance, 5man or raid (assuming you aren't using it in the aforementioned ways you described). It means they can go that much further without any need to hit their threat wipe, no?
It is worthless if your tps is high enough. It being a cheap one point talent makes it worth it for the occasions it would come in handy. For pugs it's great. One of my favorite benefits is it can boost one of our lowest points of being a warrior, aoe threat. We've got more abilities that did boost it but tossing vigilance on high aoe player can help both you and your dps to go all out.
MentalFrog wrote:
One of my favorite benefits is it can boost one of our lowest points of being a warrior, aoe threat. We've got more abilities that did boost it but tossing vigilance on high aoe player can help both you and your dps to go all out.
Sounds pretty not-pointless to me
Edited, Mar 19th 2009 11:10pm by Norellicus
Yeah, it really comes in handy on those constant occasions where my DPS are having to use their threat drops because they're getting so close to me on...
Oh wait, those don't exist anymore? My bad.
My personal DPS record on Patchwerk while tanking is currently 3,250. While that is by no means a bad thing, it hardly makes me one of the best in the world. With my threat modifiers, it would take a HELL OF A LOT of DPS to come close to pulling threat off of me, or to even have to begin worrying about it. I out DPS most of the DPS in PUGs I run, and in raids I chain pull, which means by the time AoE starts hitting the mobs, I've already front loaded enough threat that most things will be dead by the time DPS threat will get to the point of it pulling.
It's one point, we may as well. In all but a tiny handful of situations, however, it really is pretty damn useless
Oh wait, those don't exist anymore? My bad.
My personal DPS record on Patchwerk while tanking is currently 3,250. While that is by no means a bad thing, it hardly makes me one of the best in the world. With my threat modifiers, it would take a HELL OF A LOT of DPS to come close to pulling threat off of me, or to even have to begin worrying about it. I out DPS most of the DPS in PUGs I run, and in raids I chain pull, which means by the time AoE starts hitting the mobs, I've already front loaded enough threat that most things will be dead by the time DPS threat will get to the point of it pulling.
It's one point, we may as well. In all but a tiny handful of situations, however, it really is pretty damn useless
I agree, its more of a luxury then a necessity. Half the time i forget to use mine.
I've always wondered if it works in pvp. I play a prot warrior all the time and in BGs I'll always slap it on some random team member to give them a possible 3% damage reduction (knowing that threat and the taunt reset mean absolutely nothing in pvp).
I've never read anywhere that it won't work in for player damage, but does anyone know if this is the case? 3% doesn't sound a lot but it may keep a flag runner alive just long enough or allow someone to defend a node in AB for a few seconds more.
I've never read anywhere that it won't work in for player damage, but does anyone know if this is the case? 3% doesn't sound a lot but it may keep a flag runner alive just long enough or allow someone to defend a node in AB for a few seconds more.
Vigilance is a more or less meaningless talent out side of 5 mans.
It has no business being in a min/max raid build.
Nothing in WotLK thus far comes close to demanding min/max builds.
Do your own math from those statements :)
It has no business being in a min/max raid build.
Nothing in WotLK thus far comes close to demanding min/max builds.
Do your own math from those statements :)
I like popping it on the warlock aoeing. It makes holding aggro on 6 mobs a lot easier.
KradortheDruid wrote:
I've always wondered if it works in pvp. I play a prot warrior all the time and in BGs I'll always slap it on some random team member to give them a possible 3% damage reduction (knowing that threat and the taunt reset mean absolutely nothing in pvp).
I've never read anywhere that it won't work in for player damage, but does anyone know if this is the case? 3% doesn't sound a lot but it may keep a flag runner alive just long enough or allow someone to defend a node in AB for a few seconds more.
I've never read anywhere that it won't work in for player damage, but does anyone know if this is the case? 3% doesn't sound a lot but it may keep a flag runner alive just long enough or allow someone to defend a node in AB for a few seconds more.
My guess is it works. But for this you just use Intervene with the safeguard talent.
Then as you're next to the fc you spell reflect, commanding shout, piercing howl, demo shout, thunder clap, shockwave and then pick who's going to be on the receiving end of a lot of hurt.
3000+ DPS in patchwerk as a :
Main tank?
Offtank ?
In 25 mans or 10 mans ?
I know the answers to these but new kids on the block (tanks) might be dissapointed from their performance .... for a while I was furstrated listening to posts about high DPS( while being a tank)...
About the topic Vigilence is a nice to have item when:
You are a noob and have noob gear
Your a 31.000+ HP tank freak ( around 40.000+ HP buffed) with under 18-19 Expertise and being the main Hatefull strike tank
Vigilence is unnessecary
For balanced tanks with lots of expertise meaning their guild has a bear to face patche 's hatefull strikes and so they inevitable tend to increase their DPS freely. Those tanks usually offtank adds...are quick in responses and do enough DPS to keep PUG raid leaders impressed. As that kind of Tank you can hide under Maxeana's belly and with proper moves -aoeing small spiders can outbeat the best DPS there.
Whatever you do have Vigi on you.. you never know what part your gonna take in a raid...
Main tank?
Offtank ?
In 25 mans or 10 mans ?
I know the answers to these but new kids on the block (tanks) might be dissapointed from their performance .... for a while I was furstrated listening to posts about high DPS( while being a tank)...
About the topic Vigilence is a nice to have item when:
You are a noob and have noob gear
Your a 31.000+ HP tank freak ( around 40.000+ HP buffed) with under 18-19 Expertise and being the main Hatefull strike tank
Vigilence is unnessecary
For balanced tanks with lots of expertise meaning their guild has a bear to face patche 's hatefull strikes and so they inevitable tend to increase their DPS freely. Those tanks usually offtank adds...are quick in responses and do enough DPS to keep PUG raid leaders impressed. As that kind of Tank you can hide under Maxeana's belly and with proper moves -aoeing small spiders can outbeat the best DPS there.
Whatever you do have Vigi on you.. you never know what part your gonna take in a raid...
As a one point talent, I find Vigilance to be useful. I've gotten in the habit of casting it on the healer. I do this to help offset any crit heals that might pull agro at the beginning of a fight. I usually don't have trouble keeping aggro once I get it. I just want to make sure that a +15K crit heal at the beginning of the fight doesn't pull a mob off of me before I can establish threat.
Kellindross wrote:
As a one point talent, I find Vigilance to be useful. I've gotten in the habit of casting it on the healer. I do this to help offset any crit heals that might pull agro at the beginning of a fight. I usually don't have trouble keeping aggro once I get it. I just want to make sure that a +15K crit heal at the beginning of the fight doesn't pull a mob off of me before I can establish threat.
I actually find it the least useful on a healer.
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