I keep reading in every single forum that leveling as ret is the fastest way to go, but so far it has been very slow for me.
A little history on my pally experience:
1. Lvl 64 holy pally, that leveled mostly with a warrior partner. I don't play this toon anymore because I'm on a different faction now.
2. Lvl 70 prot pally that leveled with a holy pally partner. I break this guy out for dungeons every so often, but try not to play w/o my buddy being on.
I guess you can say I really do enjoy playing the class.
So now, as my "getaway" toon, I made a pally on another server to play when im on late nights & the rest of my guild is asleep lol. I don't expect to fly to 80 on this toon, or even reach it for that matter. Just something to play when my other obligations arent filled. However, slow drawn out battles dont seem too fun to me.
This is basically my first pally that I'm leveling as ret, and solo. Right now he's lvl 16 so I can't expect greatness yet, but I am just wondering when the leveling picks up speed/gets more enjoyable? So far it seems like the auto attacks take forever and the cd's on judgements are painfully slow. So I'm stuck just waiting for the next swing.
Is there a certain level, or set of spells that will make the battles go faster? (like how druid cat form drastically increases leveling)
Are there any types of weapons I should be aiming for, like slower/faster 2h?
What should be my main attributes? I guessing str/sta/agi.
When I get consecration can I AOE grind like prot or will I get chewed alive?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated, thx!
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When does Ret leveling pick up speed?Follow
BkBoro wrote:
Is there a certain level, or set of spells that will make the battles go faster? (like how druid cat form drastically increases leveling)
Are there any types of weapons I should be aiming for, like slower/faster 2h?
What should be my main attributes? I guessing str/sta/agi.
When I get consecration can I AOE grind like prot or will I get chewed alive?
Seal of Command (lvl 21?) should help. Try and stun the target before judging for extra damage.
A slow 2h mace/axe/sword is the best for Ret. Seal of Command works on a ppm so the slower the weapon the more chance it will proc = more damage.
Strength/Agility at low levels. As you get higher Hit (no lost dps from misses) and Crit (affects your spells as well as melee damage) become very nice too. Stamina for soloing like any class is good for longetivity.
Ret is designed around single target dps at low levels. Once you get Divine Storm three targets is about as much as you want to take on. You have the ability to take on more mobs but remember your dps spec not reflective damage Prot spec so you will take alot more damage too. More damage = more heals = no mana = more time spent drinking, less time questing.
Lvl 20 has always been my 'stepping off' point. Most classes seem to come into their own at 20. (Shamy - I think takes longer).
You have no access to Gold, I'm guessing as this toon is on a different server...
Pick up quest rewards and what have you. Stick to a slow 2h weapon. Your main focus should be leveling quickly and picking up STR, Agility, STA, whatever - Just no Int or Spr.
Stats really don't matter until you hit 50ish or higher.
As one FYI - Learn to use all available 2h weps. It was very annoying when suddenly I got a massive bonus from going 2h Mace, but had to waste a ton of time getting it levelled.
You have no access to Gold, I'm guessing as this toon is on a different server...
Pick up quest rewards and what have you. Stick to a slow 2h weapon. Your main focus should be leveling quickly and picking up STR, Agility, STA, whatever - Just no Int or Spr.
Stats really don't matter until you hit 50ish or higher.
As one FYI - Learn to use all available 2h weps. It was very annoying when suddenly I got a massive bonus from going 2h Mace, but had to waste a ton of time getting it levelled.
As others have said, level 20 is where it at least starts to pick up speed. You get seal of command which deals an extra 70% of weapon damage as holy damage when it procs. It procs around 7 times per minute (average) so you get a higher percentage of hits where it procs the slower your weapon is. A big slow 2-h weapon with a lot of strength on it is ideal.
If you have the opportunity, do the level 20 quest that gets you Verigan's Fist. It will last you until the mid-30s level-wise. You do have to do part of the deadmines (less than half) and part of shadowfang keep (a very small part) to get quest items, but the other two are in the ogre area of loch modan and outside the instance of blackfathom deeps respectively, so 2 pieces can be obtained solo.
At the early levels especially, Str > Agil > Stam > everything else. Don't bother with equipment that has any other stats (with the exception of Verigan's Fist which has some Int on it).
Get the Pursuit of Justice talent as soon as you can. Moving 15% faster in all situations is golden for leveling (and it comes in handy in PvP situations as well because of the speed boost and reduction in disarm duration).
Once you hit level 30 and get a mount, things will really start to fly by. As far as talents go, always take the talents that are going to boost your damage/crit (with the exception of taking max PoJ as soon as you can).
As someone else said, once you have seal of command, you can stun your target and then cast judgement, which causes an auto-crit on the judgement as long as the target is still stunned.
Level 1-20 is pretty slow and painful regardless of class/spec, but Ret really does start to pick up speed at 20 and beyond.
If you have the opportunity, do the level 20 quest that gets you Verigan's Fist. It will last you until the mid-30s level-wise. You do have to do part of the deadmines (less than half) and part of shadowfang keep (a very small part) to get quest items, but the other two are in the ogre area of loch modan and outside the instance of blackfathom deeps respectively, so 2 pieces can be obtained solo.
At the early levels especially, Str > Agil > Stam > everything else. Don't bother with equipment that has any other stats (with the exception of Verigan's Fist which has some Int on it).
Get the Pursuit of Justice talent as soon as you can. Moving 15% faster in all situations is golden for leveling (and it comes in handy in PvP situations as well because of the speed boost and reduction in disarm duration).
Once you hit level 30 and get a mount, things will really start to fly by. As far as talents go, always take the talents that are going to boost your damage/crit (with the exception of taking max PoJ as soon as you can).
As someone else said, once you have seal of command, you can stun your target and then cast judgement, which causes an auto-crit on the judgement as long as the target is still stunned.
Level 1-20 is pretty slow and painful regardless of class/spec, but Ret really does start to pick up speed at 20 and beyond.
18 posts
Thx for the replies so far. I'm gonna tough it out to lvl 30 or so & if I dont like the playstyle I might just go prot & do what I know best, AOE grinding.
The thing is that after playing a DK to 80, the ret style just seems so slooooooow. DK is like 3-4 instant moves & youre on to the next mob. Although the pally seems to hit harder & crit more, waiting for the damn auto attacks is killing me hehe.
And belive it or not, gold isnt an issue. I took up mining/skinning & on that server those things sell for obscene amounts of gold. I've seen copper bars sell for 20g a stack! However, Unless its an epic that is going to last me 15 levels or so, I try to avoid the AH when I'm leveling. Makes no sense to buy gear that you are going to replace soon with a QR.
The thing is that after playing a DK to 80, the ret style just seems so slooooooow. DK is like 3-4 instant moves & youre on to the next mob. Although the pally seems to hit harder & crit more, waiting for the damn auto attacks is killing me hehe.
And belive it or not, gold isnt an issue. I took up mining/skinning & on that server those things sell for obscene amounts of gold. I've seen copper bars sell for 20g a stack! However, Unless its an epic that is going to last me 15 levels or so, I try to avoid the AH when I'm leveling. Makes no sense to buy gear that you are going to replace soon with a QR.
BkBoro wrote:
Thx for the replies so far. I'm gonna tough it out to lvl 30 or so & if I dont like the playstyle I might just go prot & do what I know best, AOE grinding.
The thing is that after playing a DK to 80, the ret style just seems so slooooooow. DK is like 3-4 instant moves & youre on to the next mob. Although the pally seems to hit harder & crit more, waiting for the damn auto attacks is killing me hehe.
And belive it or not, gold isnt an issue. I took up mining/skinning & on that server those things sell for obscene amounts of gold. I've seen copper bars sell for 20g a stack! However, Unless its an epic that is going to last me 15 levels or so, I try to avoid the AH when I'm leveling. Makes no sense to buy gear that you are going to replace soon with a QR.
The thing is that after playing a DK to 80, the ret style just seems so slooooooow. DK is like 3-4 instant moves & youre on to the next mob. Although the pally seems to hit harder & crit more, waiting for the damn auto attacks is killing me hehe.
And belive it or not, gold isnt an issue. I took up mining/skinning & on that server those things sell for obscene amounts of gold. I've seen copper bars sell for 20g a stack! However, Unless its an epic that is going to last me 15 levels or so, I try to avoid the AH when I'm leveling. Makes no sense to buy gear that you are going to replace soon with a QR.
You have to remember that DKs start at level 55, and by level 60 you have the majority of your moves.
By level 60, a Ret Pally has Judgement, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Hammer of Wrath, etc. There will STILL be times when you are waiting for an autoswing, but not very often. Usually Judgement + CS + DS + Hammer of Wrath will kill most things with literally 4 buttons pressed in rapid sucession. Before level 60, it may SEEM slow since you are not pressing as many buttons, but you are dealing a lot of damage very quickly even when you are not button-mashing. Right now, Exorcism and Holy Wrath only work on Undead, but I believe that that is going to change in the next patch (at least for exorcism).
Consecrate is also a useful damage spell, but it is a mana-hog, so I usually only use it when I am attacking a group of 3 or more mobs.
If you really like button-mashing, you will probably be bored until you at least hit 50, but with a Ret Pally, 30-50 goes remarkably fast as long as you are questing efficiently.
IMO Ret, compared to a Prot paladin, or any type of Warrior/Deathknight/Rogue is very rarely button mashing. Some trash pulls in Naxx aside.
One you hit level 20 you'll get SoC. If you crit an auto-attack and crit an SoC proc, followed by a judgment, anything you're fighting is dead. It's kinda like a shaman's windfury, but it hits harder and you get it 10 levels earlier.
Things also pick up a bit with Crusader Strike (another button to push!) and divine storm (another button to push!). You may actually need to watch your mana while using all of those, however. But SoC is the first big boost you'll get. You still get those unlucky streaks where you have 5-6 hits without a proc, but the next fight you kill an enemy within 2 seconds because of crits. It balances out. The RNG factor is pretty annoying, for me at least.
Things also pick up a bit with Crusader Strike (another button to push!) and divine storm (another button to push!). You may actually need to watch your mana while using all of those, however. But SoC is the first big boost you'll get. You still get those unlucky streaks where you have 5-6 hits without a proc, but the next fight you kill an enemy within 2 seconds because of crits. It balances out. The RNG factor is pretty annoying, for me at least.
With respect to AOE grinding:
Tankadins slowly burn down targets. On a single target their DPS is awful. When you add 10 other targets taking damage from consecrate, reflective damage, and the tank’s actual attacks – You get a Massive DPS spike.
Mages are very much the same way. The only difference is that mages avoid death by slowing and snaring mobs – while Palys do it through self heals and armor.
Ret (Solo) –They really excel at single target DPS, but as they have several AOEs in their regular rotation, one might think they are good AOE grinders. I would argue that they are generally NOT good at it. They lack the armor to protect themselves. While running around as a ret – my guess is that ‘single target combat’ wastes some of your AOE, but true “Multi-target AOE†has far too many mobs to be efficient. (By efficient, I mean you get good damage for mana burned, you don’t go /oom, you don’t die, you’re down time is minimal.)
I think 2 or maybe 3 mobs is the best situation for a Ret Paly. It’s not too many mobs to get really hurt, but it also doesn’t waste that good AOE damage.
Tankadins slowly burn down targets. On a single target their DPS is awful. When you add 10 other targets taking damage from consecrate, reflective damage, and the tank’s actual attacks – You get a Massive DPS spike.
Mages are very much the same way. The only difference is that mages avoid death by slowing and snaring mobs – while Palys do it through self heals and armor.
Ret (Solo) –They really excel at single target DPS, but as they have several AOEs in their regular rotation, one might think they are good AOE grinders. I would argue that they are generally NOT good at it. They lack the armor to protect themselves. While running around as a ret – my guess is that ‘single target combat’ wastes some of your AOE, but true “Multi-target AOE†has far too many mobs to be efficient. (By efficient, I mean you get good damage for mana burned, you don’t go /oom, you don’t die, you’re down time is minimal.)
I think 2 or maybe 3 mobs is the best situation for a Ret Paly. It’s not too many mobs to get really hurt, but it also doesn’t waste that good AOE damage.
It depends on your level really, by the time you are 70 (probably even in your 60s) you can take a group of 5 or 6 mobs at once. Consecrate does a great amount of damage with it's scaling from AP and SP (and a Ret Paly has more AP/SP than a Prot paly of the same gear level), you can use Art of War procs to heal yourself with an instant-FoL if you need it, and Seal of Light + Divine Storm = a TON of HP coming your way if things get hairy. A solo ret doesn't have the mitigation of a prot pally, but it has a lot of heals if you need it.
Before Divine Storm it's harder for obvious reasons, and 2 - 3 is probably the maximum optimal amount to kill at once. (I say optimal because you can probalby take more, but then you are burning long cooldowns such as Divine Shield and Lay on Hands.)
Before Divine Storm it's harder for obvious reasons, and 2 - 3 is probably the maximum optimal amount to kill at once. (I say optimal because you can probalby take more, but then you are burning long cooldowns such as Divine Shield and Lay on Hands.)
To OP: Ret picks up speed since the moment you can spec Judgement of Command. You can get it since level 20.
Where it gets more dk-like is after you get Crusader Strike and Divine Storm.
Make sure you take improved judgements.
Personally I'd take pursuit of justice just because more time is spent walking than actually fighting. So in my book it really helps.
As for how stats/gear go each person has personal choices.
Personally, I like to stack a lot of stam, partly for pvp reasons but also because more stamina means less stopping to heal/eat/drink and less chances of having to cast heals while fighting, which makes your fighting go slower.
I carry 2 sets: one that is mainly sta-str and one that is mainly sta-int. Whenever I feel I should have more mana I swap some slots to sta-int gear. You don't need a full 16 items of sta-int gear, just enough so you can switch some of your worse sta-str items to int items.
Agi and crits are good to have but they are not so great until you have the crit-based talents. And when you get the crit based talents you'll want crit rating instead of agi because crit rating affects your spells too.
Your weapon is very imprtant, try to have a blue quality slow 2-hander whenever possible. I think if you can get a van cleef run you can get an axe and a mace which are good.
Trough most of your early levels your seal will always be socom and your judgement wisdom. If you level in areas with undead mobs you'll get to use exorcism more.
And Ret isn't good for AoE grinding, it's good for quests, where you meet your quest objectives and get more quests.
Edited, Mar 17th 2009 2:58pm by xorq
Where it gets more dk-like is after you get Crusader Strike and Divine Storm.
Make sure you take improved judgements.
Personally I'd take pursuit of justice just because more time is spent walking than actually fighting. So in my book it really helps.
As for how stats/gear go each person has personal choices.
Personally, I like to stack a lot of stam, partly for pvp reasons but also because more stamina means less stopping to heal/eat/drink and less chances of having to cast heals while fighting, which makes your fighting go slower.
I carry 2 sets: one that is mainly sta-str and one that is mainly sta-int. Whenever I feel I should have more mana I swap some slots to sta-int gear. You don't need a full 16 items of sta-int gear, just enough so you can switch some of your worse sta-str items to int items.
Agi and crits are good to have but they are not so great until you have the crit-based talents. And when you get the crit based talents you'll want crit rating instead of agi because crit rating affects your spells too.
Your weapon is very imprtant, try to have a blue quality slow 2-hander whenever possible. I think if you can get a van cleef run you can get an axe and a mace which are good.
Trough most of your early levels your seal will always be socom and your judgement wisdom. If you level in areas with undead mobs you'll get to use exorcism more.
And Ret isn't good for AoE grinding, it's good for quests, where you meet your quest objectives and get more quests.
Edited, Mar 17th 2009 2:58pm by xorq
2 posts
Thanks this is something that has been on my mind as well. My pally is currently level 34 and it has picked up faster from level 20. (I almost deleted her a few times from boredom.)
Now one way that I add to my amusement (when I think its a boring leveling night) is to jump into a group of mob (4-5) and see who comes out of top. Good times.
I was wondering if anyone had any preferred leveling zones for a pally? I have seen several leveling guides but I was wanting one that is specific to paladins. Is there one or should I just suck it up and deal?
Now one way that I add to my amusement (when I think its a boring leveling night) is to jump into a group of mob (4-5) and see who comes out of top. Good times.
I was wondering if anyone had any preferred leveling zones for a pally? I have seen several leveling guides but I was wanting one that is specific to paladins. Is there one or should I just suck it up and deal?
Srsbiznas wrote:
Thanks this is something that has been on my mind as well. My pally is currently level 34 and it has picked up faster from level 20. (I almost deleted her a few times from boredom.)
Now one way that I add to my amusement (when I think its a boring leveling night) is to jump into a group of mob (4-5) and see who comes out of top. Good times.
I was wondering if anyone had any preferred leveling zones for a pally? I have seen several leveling guides but I was wanting one that is specific to paladins. Is there one or should I just suck it up and deal?
Now one way that I add to my amusement (when I think its a boring leveling night) is to jump into a group of mob (4-5) and see who comes out of top. Good times.
I was wondering if anyone had any preferred leveling zones for a pally? I have seen several leveling guides but I was wanting one that is specific to paladins. Is there one or should I just suck it up and deal?
Again from my personal preference...
Leveling RET isn't that great for AoE grind. However it's fast for 1 by 1 killing. Which makes it better for quests with the sole exceptions of quests where the objective is a kill count of melee mobs. So my advice there is to go after the quests, if you don't have quest helper just get it.
One specific important thing that will have a lot of impact is your 2h weapon. So it is a good idea to do a search for the next weapon upgrade and find out where/how to get it as soon as possible, and do that each time you get a weapon upgrade so that you know where to get the next weapon. Try to always go for speed greater or equal to 3.6 if possible. I think if you are at the level for scarlet monastery you can get a pretty god axe from a quest that requires that instance.
If you are on a PvE server you may also take some advantage from scrolls and elixirs that boost strenght, attack power or spell power. If you're on a PvE server you'd probably lose the elixir buff quickly to pvp. But, you know, I'm an alchemist and carried those elixirs and flasks for when I got quests that actually required more killing than walking, and it turned out that I used them very little.
If I could invent a perfectly balanced ret set it would have stats spread into sta, str, crit and int.
So "ideally" you'd collect a full set of str-sta-crit items for every possible slot and a number of sta-int-crit items that will occupy some slots when you feel that you need extra mana. Trough Outlands and Northrend you can gear 100% from quest rewards. In Old World you may have to get a few instance runs, I've seen people offer instance runs in the trade channel for less g than a JC will ask for cutting a gem.
As you may already know, haste and armor penetration are not very useful for paladins. So try to have crit (from rating, not agi) in every possible item, alternatively hit, but at higher levels try to get crit up as a very high priority stat. This is because a lot of your Ret talents will be dependent of crits.
As for questin areas. You'll prefer areas that are likely to have more ud/demons for the extra damage from exorcism. So you should go to felwood and plaguelands as soon as you reach the level for them and from there it's outlands. I guess you're already past Duskwood but if you're not you should go there (guessing you're alliance). Nagrand has almost no undead or demons but it's still a very good questing zone so you should DO NAGRAND regardless of not having ud/demons. Besides it's a relief from fighting ugly demons and decaying reanimated corpses all day.
As you may already know, the areas to avoid are the areas abundant in mobs with mana attacks (mana burn, drain mana, silence, interrupt). Netherstorm if crowded with mana mobs so take the alternatives. When your quests involve felhounds treat that mob with a lot of respect and try to avoid fighting them more than needed.
Edited, Mar 19th 2009 2:11pm by xorq
18 posts
ok, just an update I thought I'd share. I accomplished my first feat of strength today at lvl 19. I took on bellygrub who is lvl 24 & red to me LOL.
The fight took almost 3 minutes, but I pulled out the victory with some well timed heals between dps-ing hehe.
The fight took almost 3 minutes, but I pulled out the victory with some well timed heals between dps-ing hehe.
The best thing about Paladins in WoW is that you can lvl them while watching a movie, writing a thesis paper, and lets not forget spankin your monkey. Just start attacking your target, maybe hit em with a Judgement. Once you are engaged you can AFK and make lasagna if you so please because auto attack is fine for grinding out lvls.
I remember there being a post of the WoW Forums about this.
Edited, Mar 20th 2009 3:08pm by holynazzi
I remember there being a post of the WoW Forums about this.
Edited, Mar 20th 2009 3:08pm by holynazzi
Some of what Xorq said is very good, some of it not quite as good. If you plan on staying Ret at 80 and doing heroics/raids in Ret spec, you will want to be hit-capped. You also want as high STR and crit as you can get, but you most certainly do not want to ignore hit rating.
Your chance to miss a raid boss is 8% (7% if you are a Draenei), so you want to have enough hit rating to eliminate that chance to miss. After all, a crit that could have done 5000 damage does 0 damage if you miss.
Also, at 80 (and even before then) you don't need INT on any of your gear. Between Replenishment, Divine Plea, and the option to Judge Wisdom, there are VERY few times when you are going to run low on mana, much less go OOM. For the most part, Int is a wasted stat for a Ret. Ret Paladins get 30% spellpower conversion from Attack Power, and 1 STR = 2 AP, plus you get a ton of AP from itemization. For leveling, you MIGHT look at a piece of gear that had +INT on it if it was a clear upgrade from what you had on, but you would never want to prioritize +INT on gear, it just isn't that valuable of a stat for Ret.
At 80, I tend to generally think that STR > Hit Rating (until capped) > Crit > AP > Stam > everything else. From 1-60 (before you start getting much in the way of fancy stats on your equipment) STR > AGI > STAM > everything else. You want as much strenght as possible from 1-60, enough agil to provide some extra armor and a decent crit rating, and enough stam to have a reasonable health pool. If you find yourself going OOM, stop spamming consecrate (don't even use it unless you are fighting 3+ mobs).
I am not saying that INT is a completely useless stat, but as a level 80 Ret Pally I have absolutely NO gear with +INT on it, and I pretty much never run out of mana, and I only have to drink after a VERY long boss-fight. A mana pool of about 5600 at level 80 (about what you have with 0 +INT on your gear) is really totally sufficient about 99% of the time.
Edited, Mar 23rd 2009 4:01pm by jeromesimina
Your chance to miss a raid boss is 8% (7% if you are a Draenei), so you want to have enough hit rating to eliminate that chance to miss. After all, a crit that could have done 5000 damage does 0 damage if you miss.
Also, at 80 (and even before then) you don't need INT on any of your gear. Between Replenishment, Divine Plea, and the option to Judge Wisdom, there are VERY few times when you are going to run low on mana, much less go OOM. For the most part, Int is a wasted stat for a Ret. Ret Paladins get 30% spellpower conversion from Attack Power, and 1 STR = 2 AP, plus you get a ton of AP from itemization. For leveling, you MIGHT look at a piece of gear that had +INT on it if it was a clear upgrade from what you had on, but you would never want to prioritize +INT on gear, it just isn't that valuable of a stat for Ret.
At 80, I tend to generally think that STR > Hit Rating (until capped) > Crit > AP > Stam > everything else. From 1-60 (before you start getting much in the way of fancy stats on your equipment) STR > AGI > STAM > everything else. You want as much strenght as possible from 1-60, enough agil to provide some extra armor and a decent crit rating, and enough stam to have a reasonable health pool. If you find yourself going OOM, stop spamming consecrate (don't even use it unless you are fighting 3+ mobs).
I am not saying that INT is a completely useless stat, but as a level 80 Ret Pally I have absolutely NO gear with +INT on it, and I pretty much never run out of mana, and I only have to drink after a VERY long boss-fight. A mana pool of about 5600 at level 80 (about what you have with 0 +INT on your gear) is really totally sufficient about 99% of the time.
Edited, Mar 23rd 2009 4:01pm by jeromesimina
Yes, after you get to level 80 stop doing what I said and start doing what Jero said.
I may be a "Seal Of Blood" but I seem to be getting around heroics with a lot of ease doing things the wrong way. PvP gear, PvP spec, no +hit, I think "Heroic difficulty" is overrated. Admittedly the only 10 man and 25 man runs I ever do are Arch10 and Arch25. I guess I'll have to do Nax at some point for the weapon because it kind of sux to be fighting all those nicely geared people without a weapon similar to theirs.
As for the int vs no int...
In raids as of this moment you need absolutely no int because you can just use seal of blood to inmolate yourself and get crazy mana from spiritual attunement. For a buuuuurst of mana you can also cast Hand of Sacrifice on the tank, this is a very deliberate way to remove HP from yourself for the mana. Spiritual Attune will no longer be available to ret paladins as of 3.1.
Either way you should go for a full set of "no int" items from the moment when you have enough ret talents for JotW. From that point on the use of the sta-int pieces is that you just carry them on your bags, and whenever you feel the "oh **** my mana should be more for this" you switch up a number of items to the sta-int items.
At level 80 I still switch a few items for questing because the extra mana gives me more slack when there's nobody to heal me. An increased mana pool increases the amount of mana from Replenishment, JoW, JotW, DP and if you seal SoW you just swamp yourself in mana. When fighting undead mobs you have 2 extra damage spells to spam that I think increase your dps more than a bit of AP, in addition the increased mana returns make it so that you can keep going and going without having to seat for mana. And in PvP you'll be spamming consecrates even in 1v1 regardless of it being efficient or not.
I may be a "Seal Of Blood" but I seem to be getting around heroics with a lot of ease doing things the wrong way. PvP gear, PvP spec, no +hit, I think "Heroic difficulty" is overrated. Admittedly the only 10 man and 25 man runs I ever do are Arch10 and Arch25. I guess I'll have to do Nax at some point for the weapon because it kind of sux to be fighting all those nicely geared people without a weapon similar to theirs.
As for the int vs no int...
In raids as of this moment you need absolutely no int because you can just use seal of blood to inmolate yourself and get crazy mana from spiritual attunement. For a buuuuurst of mana you can also cast Hand of Sacrifice on the tank, this is a very deliberate way to remove HP from yourself for the mana. Spiritual Attune will no longer be available to ret paladins as of 3.1.
Either way you should go for a full set of "no int" items from the moment when you have enough ret talents for JotW. From that point on the use of the sta-int pieces is that you just carry them on your bags, and whenever you feel the "oh **** my mana should be more for this" you switch up a number of items to the sta-int items.
At level 80 I still switch a few items for questing because the extra mana gives me more slack when there's nobody to heal me. An increased mana pool increases the amount of mana from Replenishment, JoW, JotW, DP and if you seal SoW you just swamp yourself in mana. When fighting undead mobs you have 2 extra damage spells to spam that I think increase your dps more than a bit of AP, in addition the increased mana returns make it so that you can keep going and going without having to seat for mana. And in PvP you'll be spamming consecrates even in 1v1 regardless of it being efficient or not.
Yes, in 3.1 there are going to be some changes. Also, my post was directed at PvE and not PvP. I am in no way a PvP authority at all, because in my case it just isn't my thing (I have a level 80 Ret that has 49 lifetime kills... lol).
For PvP and questing, I can see some use in having the extra INT. Also long boss-fights after 3.1 is release might require it.
I find that in most raids that I do on my Ret, I am taking enough AoE/Splash damage that Seal/Judgement of the Martyr (I am alliance) would probably put more strain on the raid healer than necessary, so I am usually using SoComm in raids. I know I could do more damage with Martyr, but we usually are running Naxx with only 2 healers in the 10-man version, and Martyr just puts more strain on the OT/Raid healer. I don't feel too bad about using SoComm in raids since my gear still isn't all that great and I am consistently pushing 2250-2500 dps in a raid setting even using SoComm. I suspect that once I get more raid gear I will be adding another 300-500 dps to that number with SoComm and will probably blow past 3k dps if I switch to Martyr. We have a few over-zealous healers that tend to go OOM on the longer fights, and causing extra damage to myself during those fights would probably be counter-productive.
I suspect that even with the 3.1 changes, Ret is still going to have very few mana issues, but I will be interested to see just how much these changes effect our mana. Maybe a few Rets on the PTR have some insight into this.
For PvP and questing, I can see some use in having the extra INT. Also long boss-fights after 3.1 is release might require it.
I find that in most raids that I do on my Ret, I am taking enough AoE/Splash damage that Seal/Judgement of the Martyr (I am alliance) would probably put more strain on the raid healer than necessary, so I am usually using SoComm in raids. I know I could do more damage with Martyr, but we usually are running Naxx with only 2 healers in the 10-man version, and Martyr just puts more strain on the OT/Raid healer. I don't feel too bad about using SoComm in raids since my gear still isn't all that great and I am consistently pushing 2250-2500 dps in a raid setting even using SoComm. I suspect that once I get more raid gear I will be adding another 300-500 dps to that number with SoComm and will probably blow past 3k dps if I switch to Martyr. We have a few over-zealous healers that tend to go OOM on the longer fights, and causing extra damage to myself during those fights would probably be counter-productive.
I suspect that even with the 3.1 changes, Ret is still going to have very few mana issues, but I will be interested to see just how much these changes effect our mana. Maybe a few Rets on the PTR have some insight into this.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html
Edit, new glyph of seal of blood pretty much gives paladins their own version of lifetap, which is actually superior to SA in most situations because you get the mana without requiring the heals, you still get mana input even if you're the one healing yourself.
If you're an inscriptioner, that glyph is going to sell like candy once 3.1 goes live.
Edited, Mar 26th 2009 10:11am by xorq
Edit, new glyph of seal of blood pretty much gives paladins their own version of lifetap, which is actually superior to SA in most situations because you get the mana without requiring the heals, you still get mana input even if you're the one healing yourself.
If you're an inscriptioner, that glyph is going to sell like candy once 3.1 goes live.
Edited, Mar 26th 2009 10:11am by xorq
20 is where it begins to start teething. 30 you can see the teeth starting to poke through, 40 is where the teeth are out, and 50 is where you start eating steak.
I've leveled 2 paladins as ret up to at least 60. The first 20 levels are boring. The next 10 levels after 20 are mediocre. 30s makes you want to thump your head against the wall, and finally in your 40s you start seeing what all the rave is about. When you hit outland and start picking up gear you realize ret is the end all be all of WoW (okay, maybe an over statement)
But honestly you do not get to see the awesomeness of ret until 40s. Before that its a really boring grind. And then suddenly, almost in a blink, you realize you're awesome...and start dueling level 80s just because you're awesome. And realize that you're not that awesome and need to level so you can be awesomer. Its awesome.
Edited, Mar 26th 2009 3:16am by ekaterinodar
I've leveled 2 paladins as ret up to at least 60. The first 20 levels are boring. The next 10 levels after 20 are mediocre. 30s makes you want to thump your head against the wall, and finally in your 40s you start seeing what all the rave is about. When you hit outland and start picking up gear you realize ret is the end all be all of WoW (okay, maybe an over statement)
But honestly you do not get to see the awesomeness of ret until 40s. Before that its a really boring grind. And then suddenly, almost in a blink, you realize you're awesome...and start dueling level 80s just because you're awesome. And realize that you're not that awesome and need to level so you can be awesomer. Its awesome.
Edited, Mar 26th 2009 3:16am by ekaterinodar
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