Topic says it all. I have been trying to level him again. He is my only alliance toon and I thought for a change of pace i might lvl him up at least high enough to do wrathgate.
Gear wise he has the lvl 70 pvp weapons (dagger and fist which I know prob wasn't the best choice). Rest of his gear really seems like its good considering the level.
PRetty much trying to level has been awful. If I take stuff solo every 2 or 3 kills I have to bandage from all the damage I take. IF I get 1 add I go down to about 25% health (assuming I was at full). If I get 3 I end up burning all my CD's, sometimes burning a hp potion, and even then I sometimes don't make it.
I have leveled a mage and a DK through WOTLK and never had any problems. Heck my holy priest is half way through outlands and I can solo better then this rogue anymore. Below is a link to the armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mok%27Nathal&n=Penfrost
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Why does my rogue fail?Follow
Scholar
35 posts
I had no problems at levelling my rogue through WotLK. It's all about using your skills properly. Sap one of the targets ... attack another ... blind another.. you should be able to take on 3 mobs at a time without hardly any impact on your health bar! and you deffo shouldn't be dying ... thats what vanish is for!
I notice your combat ... with killing spree, AR & blade flurry you should be able to drop 2 mobs without even breaking a sweat.
I notice your combat ... with killing spree, AR & blade flurry you should be able to drop 2 mobs without even breaking a sweat.
5 posts
it does sound as if you're trying to push too hard, too fast, and play the rogue the way you would a warrior--i.e., in your face, hack and slash. You don't have (and never will have) the kind of power gear that a warrior or hunter has, but you have subtlety, you have back stabbing, sapping, poisons, and my favorite of all, the dirty trick which will stun an opponent for enough time so that you can blind another, perhaps stun another (if you have engineering you can make really NEAT bombs).
sometimes you can stealth your way to a target if you are prepared to die to gain your objectives. In a room with one guard, stun the guard, grab the quest object, and Vanish. In a room with several guards, loot a few, wait until most of them are looking the other way, grab the quest object, and vanish. Read the fine print later. Rogues have to be patient, have to wait until their quarry is alone or walking away from the rest of the crowd. Learn how certain mobs behave. some will defend members, some will ignore the battle under their noses, or come in at the very end just to annoy you.
I have a warrior, a rogue, a hunter, and a mage. Each has its own style, but frankly the rogue is way more fun to play. And after all, what's the hurry? There's roses out there, take your time to smell 'em,
sometimes you can stealth your way to a target if you are prepared to die to gain your objectives. In a room with one guard, stun the guard, grab the quest object, and Vanish. In a room with several guards, loot a few, wait until most of them are looking the other way, grab the quest object, and vanish. Read the fine print later. Rogues have to be patient, have to wait until their quarry is alone or walking away from the rest of the crowd. Learn how certain mobs behave. some will defend members, some will ignore the battle under their noses, or come in at the very end just to annoy you.
I have a warrior, a rogue, a hunter, and a mage. Each has its own style, but frankly the rogue is way more fun to play. And after all, what's the hurry? There's roses out there, take your time to smell 'em,
Well for starters you are combat and yet you wield a dagger in your main hand. Get a slow and hard hitting MH to boost those Sinister Strikes. And you have the wrong weapon spec. You must be also doing something horribly wrong since with all the CD's combat has 4-5 mobs shouldn't be that hard. For multimobs pop Evasion, Blade Flurry and Killing Spree and watch as they fall. I also find it hard to believe that you are dying so much since you can get away from 95% of bad situations with a Cloak + Vanish.
For single mobs start from stealth with a CS and then SS until five combo points and use KS. After KS wears the mob should be around somewhere 0-15% health.
I preferred mutilate for leveling because the mobs just BLOW UP even with crap gear. I had dinged 70 day before Wrath and still oblirated the mobs with ease.
Your spec is rather fine and shouldn't be much of a problem but if you want you can try what I would do if I was leveling combat: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fMxZMxVbxbxoru0gRtL
Just fill the last point to Relentless Strikes and then continue on filling Sub as you please.
Edited, Mar 17th 2009 8:07am by Metalcommand
For single mobs start from stealth with a CS and then SS until five combo points and use KS. After KS wears the mob should be around somewhere 0-15% health.
I preferred mutilate for leveling because the mobs just BLOW UP even with crap gear. I had dinged 70 day before Wrath and still oblirated the mobs with ease.
Your spec is rather fine and shouldn't be much of a problem but if you want you can try what I would do if I was leveling combat: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fMxZMxVbxbxoru0gRtL
Just fill the last point to Relentless Strikes and then continue on filling Sub as you please.
Edited, Mar 17th 2009 8:07am by Metalcommand
Going into WotlK my rogue was Hemo Maces spec with 2, S2 maces. (I hadn't played him since before 2.4)
I specced combat, found it horrible to level.
So taking the advice of here got 2 daggers and levelled 70-80 and mutilate, would never turn back.
I specced combat, found it horrible to level.
So taking the advice of here got 2 daggers and levelled 70-80 and mutilate, would never turn back.
Take this for leveling: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe00xZMxVbxbxoru0gRtx
Remorseless sucks. Also why are you sword specced and not close quarters when you have dagger/mace? And usually you want mace/dagger for combat.
Don't go farther than 5/5 relentless in sub while leveling. The only reason a combat build should go deeper into sub is for serrated and that's not a leveling talent. After 3.1 lightning reflexes will be worth getting as well.
As for fighting mobs you want to use stuns; saps, cheapshots, kidney shots, etc. Our aoe cooldowns are on a fairly low timer so use them every time they're up, adrenaline, blade flurry, killing spree, etc. Evasion is also nice when you have unfair advantage.
Rogues combat is more about picking your battles and controlling the fight.
Remorseless sucks. Also why are you sword specced and not close quarters when you have dagger/mace? And usually you want mace/dagger for combat.
Don't go farther than 5/5 relentless in sub while leveling. The only reason a combat build should go deeper into sub is for serrated and that's not a leveling talent. After 3.1 lightning reflexes will be worth getting as well.
As for fighting mobs you want to use stuns; saps, cheapshots, kidney shots, etc. Our aoe cooldowns are on a fairly low timer so use them every time they're up, adrenaline, blade flurry, killing spree, etc. Evasion is also nice when you have unfair advantage.
Rogues combat is more about picking your battles and controlling the fight.
Personally I leveled as pvp mut and had very little down time since the burst was normally enough to kill a mob without it being able to attack. Besides that, its what everybody else has said, use your cc's to make sure you're not tanking.
Leave combat. Go mut. Stop enchanting armor on chests. Profit!
#9REDACTED,
Posted: Mar 17 2009 at 1:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I've leveled my Rogue w/o any problems, questing about 3-5 levels ahead of his. Get stance sets and put your daggers in Stealth and use Dual Weild Maces for your main stance. Also another thing that helps is being a night elf. They have shadowmeld as racial passive. Also they have wisp spirit and safe fall. And yeah fist weapons are ****** for a rogue. Unless maybe you're Dranei with racially higher strength. As long as you don't aggro too much, which you shouldn't with your stealth abilities, you'll be fine. Oh yeah, and with my rogue i spent a ton on AH for HP potions. LOL. Try using Vanish and then bandaging.
#10REDACTED,
Posted: Mar 17 2009 at 1:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ...oh and one more thing. ALWAYS keep your crippling poison on your weapons.
teamcracker wrote:
...oh and one more thing. ALWAYS keep your crippling poison on your weapons.
I wish I could auto sub-default 1 post every month.
Well I tried assassination. I also found to really use this I pretty much have to ditch my epic offhand and use a green AH dagger (mutilate). MY dps has dropped by 200 per sec and I am losing just as much health per fight as before. Energy regen is awful now and I don't see anything great about mutilate considering it uses so much energy. In fact my sinister strikes seem to do about the same damage as mutilate although they don't give me 2 combo's. I am still half dead after every couple of fights no matter what I do.
Something I have never understood about eviscerate is mine ALWAYS does 100 damage less then the minimum unless it crits. I mean right now it says 5 points should do 1213 to 1600. Every time it does around 1100 unless I get a critical strike.
I am sure I am just doing something wrong however it seems like a class shouldn't be this complex to play properly. This is prob the reason I see so few high lvl rogues anymore though.
I don't remember every having any problems getting through outlands but that was before playing much of any other class so I might just not have noticed the downtime near as much.
And as far as using Sap to CC hard to do when the expansion consists mainly of Undead and Animals.
Something I have never understood about eviscerate is mine ALWAYS does 100 damage less then the minimum unless it crits. I mean right now it says 5 points should do 1213 to 1600. Every time it does around 1100 unless I get a critical strike.
I am sure I am just doing something wrong however it seems like a class shouldn't be this complex to play properly. This is prob the reason I see so few high lvl rogues anymore though.
I don't remember every having any problems getting through outlands but that was before playing much of any other class so I might just not have noticed the downtime near as much.
And as far as using Sap to CC hard to do when the expansion consists mainly of Undead and Animals.
Hi
fronglo wrote:
Well I tried assassination. I also found to really use this I pretty much have to ditch my epic offhand and use a green AH dagger (mutilate). MY dps has dropped by 200 per sec and I am losing just as much health per fight as before. Energy regen is awful now and I don't see anything great about mutilate considering it uses so much energy. In fact my sinister strikes seem to do about the same damage as mutilate although they don't give me 2 combo's. I am still half dead after every couple of fights no matter what I do.
Something I have never understood about eviscerate is mine ALWAYS does 100 damage less then the minimum unless it crits. I mean right now it says 5 points should do 1213 to 1600. Every time it does around 1100 unless I get a critical strike.
I am sure I am just doing something wrong however it seems like a class shouldn't be this complex to play properly. This is prob the reason I see so few high lvl rogues anymore though.
I don't remember every having any problems getting through outlands but that was before playing much of any other class so I might just not have noticed the downtime near as much.
And as far as using Sap to CC hard to do when the expansion consists mainly of Undead and Animals.
Something I have never understood about eviscerate is mine ALWAYS does 100 damage less then the minimum unless it crits. I mean right now it says 5 points should do 1213 to 1600. Every time it does around 1100 unless I get a critical strike.
I am sure I am just doing something wrong however it seems like a class shouldn't be this complex to play properly. This is prob the reason I see so few high lvl rogues anymore though.
I don't remember every having any problems getting through outlands but that was before playing much of any other class so I might just not have noticed the downtime near as much.
And as far as using Sap to CC hard to do when the expansion consists mainly of Undead and Animals.
I seriously have no idea what you're doing. I don't like Mut, but when I gave it a run (from 70 -71), I had a green quest dagger in my off hand, and a blue quest dagger (from Borean Tundra) in the main hand - no epix here ... and if I lost 10% hp over the course of 10-15 fights, it was a lot. YOu should not be taking any hits (or at the very most, 1 per fight) as Mut. The standard rotation of CS > Mut > Evis > Mut will generally kill the mob, and that's before CS wears off - most of the time, he's dead before he know it.
If you're taking 50% damage per fight as Mut, you're doing something horribly wrong ... seriously.
Heck, even as combat, you should be able to keep your target locked down while you kill them via CS and KS - it may not be as bursty as Mut, but you have utility to handle multi mobs if need be.
You should NOT be taking that much damage (unless, of course, you're not using your skills as a rogue and you're running in, fighting the mobs toe-to-toe, ignoring things like stuns, finishers, poisons, etc (you DO have poisons on your weapons, don't you ??)
Here's my advice, start taking the advice of those who've responded to your call for help. If you're going to ignore everyone, then you're going to stay where you are.
read mental frogs stuff he's giving you the right answer
teamcracker wrote:
I've leveled my Rogue w/o any problems, questing about 3-5 levels ahead of his. Get stance sets and put your daggers in Stealth and use Dual Weild Maces for your main stance. Also another thing that helps is being a night elf. They have shadowmeld as racial passive. Also they have wisp spirit and safe fall. And yeah fist weapons are sh*tty for a rogue. Unless maybe you're Dranei with racially higher strength. As long as you don't aggro too much, which you shouldn't with your stealth abilities, you'll be fine. Oh yeah, and with my rogue i spent a ton on AH for HP potions. LOL. Try using Vanish and then bandaging.
teamcracker wrote:
...oh and one more thing. ALWAYS keep your crippling poison on your weapons.
This isn't the O-Boards. Don't post ****.
I tried the rotation of CS > Mut > Evis > Mut. I am down to almost no energy for the last mut and after CS mut and evis the mob is generally not even half dead. My mutilate does about 400 to 750 damage, evis at full combo does 950 to 1100 (despite saying it should do 1200 to 1600). On a crit I get between 1700 and 2200 (rare to see 2200). Even if I throw a Cold blood in before I hit Evis it still doesn't really change much.
I still lose about 30 to 40% health 1 on 1 doing it this way. This is against lvl 71 undead. According to my recount I do between 350 to 390dps which is right on par with my lvl 65 HOLY priest. With combat I was at least do 500 to 700ish.
I still lose about 30 to 40% health 1 on 1 doing it this way. This is against lvl 71 undead. According to my recount I do between 350 to 390dps which is right on par with my lvl 65 HOLY priest. With combat I was at least do 500 to 700ish.
Hi
I personally do a CS>Mutilate opener. I then just wait for white damage and watch the time of my Cheap shot. When it gets close to being over I look to see what the health of the mob is. If the mob's health is >50% I Kidney Shot, if it is < 50% I Evis. You don't have to spam your finisher ASAP.
I'm currently Muti/prep for Pvp, and find myself dropping my target either within the KS or right after it goes away. This is against mobs that you do your normal dailies.
I'm currently Muti/prep for Pvp, and find myself dropping my target either within the KS or right after it goes away. This is against mobs that you do your normal dailies.
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Feyras, ****** Superhero wrote:
I think I'm going to sig myself, just to be different.
PSN tag: DavidChrist. If you add me, send me a message telling me who you are, please.
Listen to MentalFrog, he knows what he's talking about. If you can avoid being hit by a mob, do it.
One simple part that hasn't been pointed out - Your gear. It's not bad, but WotLK is a big jump. Most of us didn't have a lot of trouble levelling our rogues because we were all in purples. DKs wear plate, no problem, mages you shouldn't be taking any hits.
Soloing with your rogue, you are obviously taking a lot more hits than you would be endgame BC in heroics, raiding, etc., which your gear doesn't currently support so much. WotLK early gear has tons of stamina, this is going to make the difference. Replace your armor and your daggers with WotLK quest rewards asap and I think you will quickly find things much more manageable.
Edited, Mar 18th 2009 1:01pm by HawaiianPunch
One simple part that hasn't been pointed out - Your gear. It's not bad, but WotLK is a big jump. Most of us didn't have a lot of trouble levelling our rogues because we were all in purples. DKs wear plate, no problem, mages you shouldn't be taking any hits.
Soloing with your rogue, you are obviously taking a lot more hits than you would be endgame BC in heroics, raiding, etc., which your gear doesn't currently support so much. WotLK early gear has tons of stamina, this is going to make the difference. Replace your armor and your daggers with WotLK quest rewards asap and I think you will quickly find things much more manageable.
Edited, Mar 18th 2009 1:01pm by HawaiianPunch
Fronglo,
I have no idea if you have updated your spec, but the one on the armory is awful. Awful in the way that it might be the worst spec aside from tri-speccing.
- Why imp. SS w/ a mutilate build? You should take SS off your cast bars. Forever.
- You are now poison reliant. I see that you've skipped the poison talents (mainly vile poisons). Not good.
- Do NPC's snare you alot? No? Then why have fleet footed? Wasted points.
- Despite what you think, when you get the playstyle down, you definitely will never need Deadened Nerves. Ever.
- 1/2 in Deadly Brew? No. Not a pve talent. It's only pvp. Take 'er out.
- You probably miss, alot. Right? You need some in precision. 3/5 most likely at your level. Which brings me to...
- You complain your mutilates don't hit for much? Dual Wield Specialization - an extra 50% dmg from you OH! Oh my!
- First tier of sub should be 5/5 0/0 2/2, and that's it. The rest is mainly pvp in that tree, and your....leveling.
Get the stam / armor enchants off your gear and replace it w/ dps enchants. You are a rogue, not a healer. You need to think about damage output, all. the. time. You don't need to think about dmg mitigation while leveling, as your spec and rotations should be enough to drop your targets before they leave stunlock. If you can't, well then you are failing and should go download warhammer or something.
I have no idea if you have updated your spec, but the one on the armory is awful. Awful in the way that it might be the worst spec aside from tri-speccing.
- Why imp. SS w/ a mutilate build? You should take SS off your cast bars. Forever.
- You are now poison reliant. I see that you've skipped the poison talents (mainly vile poisons). Not good.
- Do NPC's snare you alot? No? Then why have fleet footed? Wasted points.
- Despite what you think, when you get the playstyle down, you definitely will never need Deadened Nerves. Ever.
- 1/2 in Deadly Brew? No. Not a pve talent. It's only pvp. Take 'er out.
- You probably miss, alot. Right? You need some in precision. 3/5 most likely at your level. Which brings me to...
- You complain your mutilates don't hit for much? Dual Wield Specialization - an extra 50% dmg from you OH! Oh my!
- First tier of sub should be 5/5 0/0 2/2, and that's it. The rest is mainly pvp in that tree, and your....leveling.
Get the stam / armor enchants off your gear and replace it w/ dps enchants. You are a rogue, not a healer. You need to think about damage output, all. the. time. You don't need to think about dmg mitigation while leveling, as your spec and rotations should be enough to drop your targets before they leave stunlock. If you can't, well then you are failing and should go download warhammer or something.
26 posts
/cheer for ThomasMagnum
That Theo-esq rant totally renewed my faith in these forums. So helpfully condescending. Well done!
/praise off
Listen to ThomasMagnum his words are awesomely correct.
Edited, Mar 18th 2009 8:45pm by ArishnaofBalnazzar
That Theo-esq rant totally renewed my faith in these forums. So helpfully condescending. Well done!
/praise off
Listen to ThomasMagnum his words are awesomely correct.
Edited, Mar 18th 2009 8:45pm by ArishnaofBalnazzar
fronglo wrote:
I tried the rotation of CS > Mut > Evis > Mut. I am down to almost no energy for the last mut and after CS mut and evis the mob is generally not even half dead. My mutilate does about 400 to 750 damage, evis at full combo does 950 to 1100 (despite saying it should do 1200 to 1600). On a crit I get between 1700 and 2200 (rare to see 2200). Even if I throw a Cold blood in before I hit Evis it still doesn't really change much.
I still lose about 30 to 40% health 1 on 1 doing it this way. This is against lvl 71 undead. According to my recount I do between 350 to 390dps which is right on par with my lvl 65 HOLY priest. With combat I was at least do 500 to 700ish.
I still lose about 30 to 40% health 1 on 1 doing it this way. This is against lvl 71 undead. According to my recount I do between 350 to 390dps which is right on par with my lvl 65 HOLY priest. With combat I was at least do 500 to 700ish.
Again, I'll ask the question - do you put poisons on your weapons ... you must have wound on both (Mut damage is affected by having poisons on your targets, wound has a 50% chance to be applied, meaning there's a very high chance it's already on before your first Mutilate)
As for running out of energy before the second Mut - relentless strikes (which you don't have) will help you there - your 5 point evis will guarantee 25 energy back with relentless strikes. Also, CS > MUT > Evis means that you still have 1 second left of the CS stun (Thank you 1second GCD for a rogue), giving you an extra 10 energy (I believe that's the amount of energy, although I'm subject to correction). Coupled with focussed attacks, you should have enough energy to do a second Mut before CS is finished, even if it means waiting for a second to build that energy. That second Mut will either finish the mob off, or give you 3-4 cps for an evis - that evis WILL finish the mob off.
In 3/4 level 70 TBC crafted and quested gear, and 1/4 borean tundra quest rewards, at level 70, I farmed the level 71/72 mobs in dragonblight for leather, killing non stop for easily an hour at a time, taking on average 1 hit from each mob (sometimes more than one hit, mostly never being hit at all). You really shouldn't be having a problem. Your gear doesn't suck for your level, although your spec needs work.
To add to Thomas's post,
-You'll need imp Evis seeing as you'll be relying on it to finish the mob off.
-He touched on it indirectly, but relentless strikes should pretty much be the first 5 points you put into a build when starting from a clean slate at your level. the next 5 points is DW spec, put your points everywhere else after that.
-Blood Spatter ?? ... what for, you shouldn't be opening with garrote, and you aren't going to be fighting long enough for rupture to be of any use.
-Turn the tables, Cut to the chase and Hunger for blood are geared for sustained DPS ... you're looking for burst - none of these will give you that.
Try building around this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhecoeMoiboIuZ0xZx ) for mut leveling ... these are the minimum talents you should have.
I'll disagree with Thomas on one point though, Fleet footed is handy for leveling in that it increases movement speed, specifically while stealthed. Coupled with Camo, it gives you almost 100% movement speed in stealth. Also, if you don't take at least 1 point in FF, you can't go higher in the tree (without taking something else more useless). That's just my opinion.
Edit: At level 71, your combat DPS seems a little low, but still in the region of what I was doing for mob fights (as combat). When I switched to Mut though, my mob fight DPS went to between 900 and 1200 - it was a clear, outright increase, and sped up my leveling substantially
Edited, Mar 19th 2009 12:27pm by robertlofthouse
I've been scanning these forums quasi-religiously for the past few days for advice on leveling my newbie rogue. I am completely unsure of if I should go combat swords or mutilate (at higher levels, only 26 right now). I'll be using either two BoA swords or daggers; right now I have one of each and I'm trying to figure out what would be best to get next, another sword or dagger.
That said, I see a few things that even I, as a newbie, can probably answer.
Pretty sure instead of Evis you should be using KS if you want to avoid damage, right?
That's damage before armor reduction, right? So it makes sense it would do less. Envenom, on the other hand, will do the damage is purports to do, unless partially resisted. The trade-off is that it eats your poison stacks. I'm assuming instant/deadly as a poison combo.
My guess would be the 15% movement speed increase. That looks like an awesome talent for leveling, and makes me think an assassination build might be worth it.
A couple issues with this build:
1. Mutilate build, but no Opportunity? 20% more damage to mutilate seems awesome.
2. You have Imp Evis (for Evis as a finisher) AND Vile Poisons (for Envenom as a finisher). I think he needs either one or the other. Not sure which work best, but I am ALMOST leaning toward "neither"; I would focus on KS as a finisher if he's taking a lot of damage. SnD would be used if you have extra points near the end and don't feel like wasting them on an evis/envenom. Edit: I just saw the 20% poison damage boost on vile poisons. I would definitely lean toward this over eviscerate.
3. If you take out points in both of those finishers, you could grab some in precision (yay hit!).
4. Quick Recovery looks ok, but if you have enough hit (say, from Precision or +hit) you will never miss a finisher. Edit: I realize that dodge and parry will be an issue too, but at 70+ you start getting some major expertise, if I remember correctly. Should make this talent even less useful. The healing, while nice, shouldn't be needed if he never loses 10% health in a single fight.
5. No idea how good they are, but both Imp KS and Improved Poisons look ok. Imp Poisons maybe not so much, especially once the 3.1 nerf comes into play with poisons going to a flat ppm (unless it ups the ppm, in which case, sweet!).
I came up with this for the same level (65) http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fMxcoxgsVboIzZ0xMZxb
No idea if it's any good, but I leave off all the frills for finishers assuming you'll be using KS as a finisher. Next points would go in either Precision or Master Poisoner, then finishing the Assassination tree.
Again, I'm just a newbie rogue, but I saw two types of advice here:
1. Finishing moves rock!
2. KS to avoid damage.
If you're getting down to 50% health after every fight, you should be using KS instead of heavy finishers, and the talents should reflect that. My two copper.
Edit: Seeing the damage poisons do, Vile Poisons looks much better. I would probably edit my build to place points in that, or place some points in there quite soon after my other suggestions.
Edit 2: Looking back, I would probably take 3 points out of Imp Poisons and place them into Vile Poisons. Gives you a decent alternative if you want a finisher, and increases your poisons by quite a bit. I didn't do the math crunch to figure out which talent would be best, but 20% seems > a 6% additional chance to apply them. Once you go past level 65, of course you can add more points into Imp Poisons.
Edited, Mar 19th 2009 2:36pm by LockeColeMA
Edited, Mar 19th 2009 2:57pm by LockeColeMA
That said, I see a few things that even I, as a newbie, can probably answer.
Quote:
I tried the rotation of CS > Mut > Evis > Mut
Pretty sure instead of Evis you should be using KS if you want to avoid damage, right?
Quote:
Something I have never understood about eviscerate is mine ALWAYS does 100 damage less then the minimum unless it crits. I mean right now it says 5 points should do 1213 to 1600. Every time it does around 1100 unless I get a critical strike.
That's damage before armor reduction, right? So it makes sense it would do less. Envenom, on the other hand, will do the damage is purports to do, unless partially resisted. The trade-off is that it eats your poison stacks. I'm assuming instant/deadly as a poison combo.
Quote:
- Do NPC's snare you alot? No? Then why have fleet footed? Wasted points.
My guess would be the 15% movement speed increase. That looks like an awesome talent for leveling, and makes me think an assassination build might be worth it.
Quote:
Try building around this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fh...oiboIuZ0xZx ) for mut leveling ... these are the minimum talents you should have.
A couple issues with this build:
1. Mutilate build, but no Opportunity? 20% more damage to mutilate seems awesome.
2. You have Imp Evis (for Evis as a finisher) AND Vile Poisons (for Envenom as a finisher). I think he needs either one or the other. Not sure which work best, but I am ALMOST leaning toward "neither"; I would focus on KS as a finisher if he's taking a lot of damage. SnD would be used if you have extra points near the end and don't feel like wasting them on an evis/envenom. Edit: I just saw the 20% poison damage boost on vile poisons. I would definitely lean toward this over eviscerate.
3. If you take out points in both of those finishers, you could grab some in precision (yay hit!).
4. Quick Recovery looks ok, but if you have enough hit (say, from Precision or +hit) you will never miss a finisher. Edit: I realize that dodge and parry will be an issue too, but at 70+ you start getting some major expertise, if I remember correctly. Should make this talent even less useful. The healing, while nice, shouldn't be needed if he never loses 10% health in a single fight.
5. No idea how good they are, but both Imp KS and Improved Poisons look ok. Imp Poisons maybe not so much, especially once the 3.1 nerf comes into play with poisons going to a flat ppm (unless it ups the ppm, in which case, sweet!).
I came up with this for the same level (65) http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fMxcoxgsVboIzZ0xMZxb
No idea if it's any good, but I leave off all the frills for finishers assuming you'll be using KS as a finisher. Next points would go in either Precision or Master Poisoner, then finishing the Assassination tree.
Again, I'm just a newbie rogue, but I saw two types of advice here:
1. Finishing moves rock!
2. KS to avoid damage.
If you're getting down to 50% health after every fight, you should be using KS instead of heavy finishers, and the talents should reflect that. My two copper.
Edit: Seeing the damage poisons do, Vile Poisons looks much better. I would probably edit my build to place points in that, or place some points in there quite soon after my other suggestions.
Edit 2: Looking back, I would probably take 3 points out of Imp Poisons and place them into Vile Poisons. Gives you a decent alternative if you want a finisher, and increases your poisons by quite a bit. I didn't do the math crunch to figure out which talent would be best, but 20% seems > a 6% additional chance to apply them. Once you go past level 65, of course you can add more points into Imp Poisons.
Edited, Mar 19th 2009 2:36pm by LockeColeMA
Edited, Mar 19th 2009 2:57pm by LockeColeMA
LockeColeMA wrote:
Pretty sure instead of Evis you should be using KS if you want to avoid damage, right?
I'm not sure what problem the OP has, but anyone who's used Mut to level will tell you the same thing. CS > Mut > Evis > Mut kills a mob.
Sure, KS will help you avoid damage, but all it does it prolong the fight. 90% of the time, CS > Mut > Evis > Mut kills the mob before CS wears off, meaning you kill the mob in super-quick time AND you don't take damage.
Look at it this way; You open with CS and follow with Mut. Now you have 5 cps (depending on your spec). You blow all 5 points on applying a 6 second stun when your first stun is only 2 seconds old, essentialy throwing 2 secons of stun away. Now you only have 6 seconds to start burning the mob down. Problem is, you've blown lots of energy now, your next Mut will probably deplete you entirely, and your KS is on CD, meaning when that stun wears off, he WILL start hitting you.
What you could do quite easily is CS > Mut > Evis > Mut, and if the mob is STILL not dead, you could KS then and continue - it buys you a few more seconds so you can finish him off. Then again, if you 3point Evis'd then, you might very well kill him off anyway - it pretty much depends on how much health the mob has left
Quote:
A couple issues with this build:
1. Mutilate build, but no Opportunity? 20% more damage to mutilate seems awesome.
The build linked it a level 65 build, not a final one. But yes, you're right, opportunity would most definitely be a mandatory talent.
Quote:
2. You have Imp Evis (for Evis as a finisher) AND Vile Poisons (for Envenom as a finisher). I think he needs either one or the other. Not sure which work best, but I am ALMOST leaning toward "neither"; I would focus on KS as a finisher if he's taking a lot of damage. SnD would be used if you have extra points near the end and don't feel like wasting them on an evis/envenom. Edit: I just saw the 20% poison damage boost on vile poisons. I would definitely lean toward this over eviscerate.
Evis as a finisher is pretty standard practice to burn a mob down fast, Envenom requires deadly poison, which is much less effective on short fights than wound. Envenom may be a great finisher for long fights (citation needed here, as the envenom glyph has apparently been pulled from the 3.1 ptr), but is far less effective that evis in a burst/solo environment. KS ?, sure - but as mentioned, it'll just prolong the fight, when you could just as easily have finished it off.
SnD is almost a total waste in this situation, it wastes CPs on thing that it could be better spent on. You'll very seldom find someone suggesting SnD as part of a single mob fight rotation - it's more for sustained dps fights ... and combat builds ;-).
Quote:
3. If you take out points in both of those finishers, you could grab some in precision (yay hit!).
4. Quick Recovery looks ok, but if you have enough hit (say, from Precision or +hit) you will never miss a finisher. Edit: I realize that dodge and parry will be an issue too, but at 70+ you start getting some major expertise, if I remember correctly. Should make this talent even less useful. The healing, while nice, shouldn't be needed if he never loses 10% health in a single fight.
You need an astronomical amount of expetise to remove parry from the attack table, which means that there is a chance your finishers will not land - being able to get most of that energy back to try the finisher again has saved my bacon more times than I'm willing to bet on - it stays in my levelling build. By no means is this a deal breaker, but you actually need
Quote:
5. No idea how good they are, but both Imp KS and Improved Poisons look ok. Imp Poisons maybe not so much, especially once the 3.1 nerf comes into play with poisons going to a flat ppm (unless it ups the ppm, in which case, sweet!).
Imp poisons is downright useless for soloing/leveling, as you'll not be using instant or deadly poison. It shines (or used to) for raiding, where you would use instant and deadly. Imp KS only benefits your damage for a few seconds at the end of a fight, when you should be finishing the mob off anyway, instead of letting him stand there swaying slowly.
All I'm doing it regurgitating what I've picked up here on this board, and experienced in game. My rogue is not a raider, he's a soloer, so any builds or playstyle I develop are doing from that angle. I hate Mutilate (don't like not have the multimob capabilities that combat provides, or the sneakiness and mobility that sub provides), so if I can find an opportunity to bash the spec and play it's effectiveness down, I will. The thing is, I can't - it's very potent, and works incredibly well.
robertlofthouse wrote:
Good responses, but too long to quote it all :D
I see your points for most of the things. My idea was:
1. He's taking 40-50% max hp loss per enemy. I have no idea why this would be, besides not using stuns. Hence why I echoed Mental and Feyras with using a KS, thus negating damage. No idea how this works; I don't even have CS yet :D
2. Does Wound Poison beat the IS/DP combo? I've read it that it does for combat and sub, but not mutilate. No idea if that's true, again, I don't have it. I would think IS/DP would be the best, even for grinding... assuming you're using envenom as a finisher instead of evisc.
3. Is parry that high for normal enemies? I thought, much like other stats (ie miss) it scaled with levels, with bosses being... what, 14%ish?... and +2 enemies only being around 8%. No idea, I may have misread that or used my "Jump-to-Conclusions Mat!"
4. Imp KS seems like it would be nice assumign you used KS in the middle of a rotation instead of at the end. But again, I guess it depends on what works for the OP.
My thinking was that, if an enemy can get him to 60% hp by the end of a fight, he obviously does NOT have the burst to kill something off near the end of a CS or right after. That much hp loss sounds like it would be from at least 10 seconds of taking damage, much longer than the scenario you set up. Again, just my guesses.
I'd trust your opinions more than mine, but I'm not sure why fronglo is having so many problems and avoiding damage ala KS seemed better than trying to kill faster (which seems to not be working). Thank you for the feedback!
LockeColeMA wrote:
I've been scanning these forums quasi-religiously for the past few days for advice on leveling my newbie rogue. I am completely unsure of if I should go combat swords or mutilate (at higher levels, only 26 right now). I'll be using either two BoA swords or daggers; right now I have one of each and I'm trying to figure out what would be best to get next, another sword or dagger.
Combat vs Mutilate really just comes down to personal fighting preference and what weapons you have available. Combat is usually better for leveling, but even leveling your abilities and rotations change quite a bit. Rogues are actually nicely designed in their leveling process. They're basically forced to use their basics and build up a pretty heavy ******* of abilities as they level.
If you do level as combat go sword/sword and poisons are usually wp/wp.
LockeColeMA wrote:
robertlofthouse wrote:
Good responses, but too long to quote it all :D
I see your points for most of the things. My idea was:
1. He's taking 40-50% max hp loss per enemy. I have no idea why this would be, besides not using stuns. Hence why I echoed Mental and Feyras with using a KS, thus negating damage. No idea how this works; I don't even have CS yet :D
2. Does Wound Poison beat the IS/DP combo? I've read it that it does for combat and sub, but not mutilate. No idea if that's true, again, I don't have it. I would think IS/DP would be the best, even for grinding... assuming you're using envenom as a finisher instead of evisc.
3. Is parry that high for normal enemies? I thought, much like other stats (ie miss) it scaled with levels, with bosses being... what, 14%ish?... and +2 enemies only being around 8%. No idea, I may have misread that or used my "Jump-to-Conclusions Mat!"
4. Imp KS seems like it would be nice assumign you used KS in the middle of a rotation instead of at the end. But again, I guess it depends on what works for the OP.
My thinking was that, if an enemy can get him to 60% hp by the end of a fight, he obviously does NOT have the burst to kill something off near the end of a CS or right after. That much hp loss sounds like it would be from at least 10 seconds of taking damage, much longer than the scenario you set up. Again, just my guesses.
I'd trust your opinions more than mine, but I'm not sure why fronglo is having so many problems and avoiding damage ala KS seemed better than trying to kill faster (which seems to not be working). Thank you for the feedback!
Cheap shot is a 4 second stun, right from the start, which is generally enough time, with the burst from Mut and Evis, to finish the fight. If the fight does not finish within that period of time, then it'll finish very soon afterwards. This is what I was talking about when I said sometimes you take no hits, and sometimes you take one hit - the one hit you'll take if the mob doesn't die before the CS stun wears off.
It was mentioned before, but using Mut this way is a very forgiving strategy, because it doesn't rely too much on gear - you can succeed even with mediocre gear. I suspect the issue for the OP is that his spec was waaay less than optimal, meaning he wasn't being able to make use of the basic steps in the most efficient way. Seriously, with the right spec (which is not a mystery, you'll see it all over this forum), you should NEVER take 50% damage when fighting an equal level mob, I just don't see how it's possible.
What I'm trying to address is the OP's struggle with killing mobs while taking less damage. I believe the right way to do this, is to address his lack of damage dealing ability. I do not believe that prolonging the fight is the best option.
I had this revelation on my first character (Warrior) at about level 40, when someone told me it's all about finishing the fight quickly. At that point, I decided to start stacking up on attack power and crit chance, very often at the expense of stamina (which seemed foreign to me, but I decided to give the concept a go). I started killing things much faster, so fast, in fact, that often I took much much less damage (as a % of my total health pool) than I used to, which resulted in much less downtime. This, coupled to the faster kills, accelerated my leveling dramatically.
Now, the OP initially mentioned that he was combat, and it was pointed out that his weapons were wrong. I'd just like to get back to that point, seeing as most of the discussion has been around Mutilate. Combat is a very efficient spec to level with, but you have to a hard hitting weapons in you main hand, and a dagger is not it. So if you (the OP) intent sticking to Mut, then please consider the advice given here on the matter quite seriously (honestly, it's some of the best you can get - these guys have helped many like you who have come here in the past asking the same questions). If you want to go back to combat, that's great, just ditch the main hand dagger in favour of a sword/fist/mace, make sure you have the corresponding weapon spec, and profit.
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