Up until a month ago I was dpsing in a great 10man Naxx group. There was me and one other Ret and we would consistently be top dps. The only thing holding us back from more dps on what I would consider a normal fight was threat. If we didnt manage Hand Of Salv we would posiibly have to back off. Our tank was well geared and skilled. I'm not sure whats happened since then but as far as I know (having respecced back a couple of times from prot for EoE raids) nothing has really changed. Yes my dps isnt as high as casters in EoE but thats understandable considering the design of the fight.
If all they did was remove the recoil damage SoB/SotM would be way too OP. You cant fix what aint broke. If our dps slides that much then they will fix it.
I haven't tested out the difference on the ptr but comparing current Ret dps to what it was in The Burning Crusade I can safely say this:
Less QQ moar pew pew.
/equip Impregnable Shield of the Ratedown
OP. Looking at your gear you may have lots of shiny purples but 5 pieces that you can get from heroics that would be way better. At least get the T7 gloves for the 2set bonus. I bet you wouldnt be complaining about recoil damage if you were sitting higher up the dps meters.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 11:25am by arthoriuss
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- SoB/SotM Recoil Damage Thread
SoB/SotM Recoil Damage ThreadFollow
Erm you're heading for rate downs for a complete inability to read or understand the subject. This is not about me, did you even click on the links to EJ or the o-boards?
In answer to your OP statement about SoB I would suggest you take the time to read some WWS, just peruse some of the timed-runs for free on the front page, then report back with how many ret palas are topping the DPS charts. However, on that point, which I'll make as you haven't read the arguments, It's not about making ret palas top of the DPS, it's keeping them at a happy medium, which is pretty much where they are now, but without the handicap of recoil damage.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 8:11am by Goggy
In answer to your OP statement about SoB I would suggest you take the time to read some WWS, just peruse some of the timed-runs for free on the front page, then report back with how many ret palas are topping the DPS charts. However, on that point, which I'll make as you haven't read the arguments, It's not about making ret palas top of the DPS, it's keeping them at a happy medium, which is pretty much where they are now, but without the handicap of recoil damage.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 8:11am by Goggy
ok, you really want this staying to the OP... very well. this will be long, and i'm sorry... most of you won't care, but Goggy, please stay with me... i'm going to adress the OP which is what you want discussion on.
first of all, i start right off and really don't want to read it any further...
straight QQ... we might be the only ones... well... not really... i haven't kept up on priests, but last i knew their finishing move did damage back to them. um, a lock's "dps" maybe doesn't hurt him.... but if he doesn't use life tap, i'm pretty sure his dps will go down... so as best i can tell a lock has to hurt himself to do respectable dps... a hunter doesn't physically hurt himself, but intentionally reduces his damage for a limited time to do good overall dps... so yes, we may have the most consistent downside, but we're not the only ones... and anytime a kid says "but mommy, i'm the only one that..." noone denys that it's QQ.. why is it different here? you rate tommy down cause he called it QQ, but i bet you still hate hearing your kids say it...
um, maybe i'm wrong, but my judgement doesn't take 10k life off me... as far as the healing side.... next post in the thread by a healer shaman....
um, yeah.... need i comment? oh you say other classes saying it should be removed... i didn't get far in the threads, but i don't see it... this shaman healer seemed to think it was ok and you just need to learn to deal with it...
hmm, wait... further down in this guys post he has some suggestions... mostly pretty rediculous... but one of them is:
hmm, blizzard did this in their own way, but um... isn't this what blizz is doing? they've moved the damage from judgements to the seal and in doing so, reduced the recoil and spread it out so we're less likely to accidentally kill ourselves... so now that blizzard has done this on the ptr, why is this still coming up as an issue? they did listen... they took an idea that was out there and used it, or so it would seem.
ok, and the last post which brings me to why i really am responding again....
so, they say a ret pally is a huge healing liability for a healer... and they say there's going to be more aoe damage which means this will be more of a problem... i've covered this already, but i'll admit it wasn't with solid math.. it was my guestimations... so now you keep complaining about it and i feel we need to see how much of a liability ret is going to be in the upcoming aoe content... will we need our own designated healer because we are so self-destructive?
assuming you are geared well from naxx... this is taking the top geared ret pally on my server now as and example (sorry if there's better to use, i just needed some realistic numbers to use...) this is assuming BoK, BoM, MotW, Flask of Endless Rage, Fish Feast and this spec. this is looking him up using RAWR to add the buffs and get the info.
Drayeni on the kael'thas realm:
AP - 4752
SP - 1471
Betrayer of Humanity - (222.94dps/3.4 weapon speed)
Weapon damage - 2533
weapon speed - 2.90
crit% - 33.82 (54.82 judge crit)
4pc t7 = 10% DS/-1s judgement
glyph of judgement = 10% inc damage
AoW = 10% inc damage judgement & DS
overall damage increase = 21% (talents)
meta gem = 3% crit damage
i'm not calculating actual dps we'll be doing. just trying to calculate healer strain.
Judgement (11%AP+18%SP+26%WD) - 522.72+264.78+658.58 = 1446.08 x1.41 = 2039 (4200 crit)
Judgement recoil - 680 (1400 crit)
Seal - (48%WD) - 1215.84 x1.21 = 1471 (3030 crit)
Seal recoil - 147 (303 crit)
JoL (10%AP+10%SP) - 622 x1.05 = 653
Divine Storm (110%WD) - 2786.3 x1.41 = 3929 (8093 crit)
DS heal - 982 (2023 crit)
self only during a 2 min average:
17 judgements (7.7 reg/9.3 crits)
12 DS (8 reg/4 crits)
41 melee swings
20 CS
73 seal hits (48.3 reg/24.7 crits)
73 total hits proc'ing JoL
judgement recoil = 18,256 damage done to self
seal recoil = 14,584
total recoil = 32,840
DS heals = 5316 (total/3)
JoL heals = 47,669
total self-healing = 52,985
strain on healer (self-healing-recoil) = (-20,145)
so, based on my numbers (which may not be 100% correct, but are pretty close) we cause 167.875 hps more than we cause dps to ourself... so strain on healers... kinda non-existent when you ONLY count the JoL heals on yourself... add in JoL on everyone in your 10 or 25 man raid... the amount of strain you TAKE OFF OF YOUR HEALERS is incredible...
final conclusion, please stop whining. if you can show me where my math is wrong, please do. if you CAN'T then stop complaining about how much of a strain we are going to be on the healers in ulduar. right now with the current judgement/seal percentages yes, we cause some small strain on our healers because our judgements hit so stinking hard. however, that's about to change and yes, i realize my numbers are largely theory, but so is this idea that we'll be strain on the healers in 3.1 without any reason.
all the recoil will mean is our DS and JoL will actually have something to heal up on us and our DS heal will always target us for one of the 3 targets... bad? not really. thats still 2 other targets that DS can heal and um, 8-20 other players that our JoW can proc for causeing 8-20 TIMES the healing done... if anything the strain we take from our healers needs to be balanced down a little. it is kinda crazy that a ret pally in a 25 man raid can never cast a heal but still be ahead of some healers who are doing their job well...
once again, i'm sorry this is long, but you have kinda been asking for some discussion on your OP Goggy, so here it is... Oh, and yes, I did say you're whining... um, feel free to read why I think you are and then proceed to rate me down... ;)
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
Started by the EJ guys on the O-Boards, now spans 20 pages with other classes agreeing it should be removed. If you'd like to lend your weight it is here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15671257853&sid=1&pageNo=1
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15671257853&sid=1&pageNo=1
first of all, i start right off and really don't want to read it any further...
Quote:
We are the only class that has to hurt itself (insert Emo Pally comments here) to do respectable DPS. Even then we aren't close to being top or even really good, even with us doing 2k dps to ourselves.
straight QQ... we might be the only ones... well... not really... i haven't kept up on priests, but last i knew their finishing move did damage back to them. um, a lock's "dps" maybe doesn't hurt him.... but if he doesn't use life tap, i'm pretty sure his dps will go down... so as best i can tell a lock has to hurt himself to do respectable dps... a hunter doesn't physically hurt himself, but intentionally reduces his damage for a limited time to do good overall dps... so yes, we may have the most consistent downside, but we're not the only ones... and anytime a kid says "but mommy, i'm the only one that..." noone denys that it's QQ.. why is it different here? you rate tommy down cause he called it QQ, but i bet you still hate hearing your kids say it...
Quote:
but now a judgement taking off 10k life makes us a severe sore spot on healers when the upcoming content is looking like it'll be tougher on healers anyways
um, maybe i'm wrong, but my judgement doesn't take 10k life off me... as far as the healing side.... next post in the thread by a healer shaman....
Quote:
Did EJ fall into QQs?
As a healer, I don't see how Martyr is any different than Lifetap. If these are such a liability that your healers can't keep up... something's wrong..
As a healer, I don't see how Martyr is any different than Lifetap. If these are such a liability that your healers can't keep up... something's wrong..
um, yeah.... need i comment? oh you say other classes saying it should be removed... i didn't get far in the threads, but i don't see it... this shaman healer seemed to think it was ok and you just need to learn to deal with it...
hmm, wait... further down in this guys post he has some suggestions... mostly pretty rediculous... but one of them is:
Quote:
- You can make decent arguments either way, however i feel the easiest solution would be to make SoC baseline at level 20, the low level DPS seal and make SoB its replacement at 64. Can leave the mechanics the same basically. If SoB without a penalty is too strong in its current form then can simply move a portion of the judgment damage into the seal damage (at greater than a 1:1 ratio in order to make up for the lost RV damage, or move it 1:1 and add seal crits to RV). Then to make up for the lost SA mana can either buff JotW or do something with DP similar to prot as suggested.
hmm, blizzard did this in their own way, but um... isn't this what blizz is doing? they've moved the damage from judgements to the seal and in doing so, reduced the recoil and spread it out so we're less likely to accidentally kill ourselves... so now that blizzard has done this on the ptr, why is this still coming up as an issue? they did listen... they took an idea that was out there and used it, or so it would seem.
ok, and the last post which brings me to why i really am responding again....
Quote:
Now which would you have in a raid, a Ret pally and his designated healer (because thats what it could come down to) or 2 extra dps?
so, they say a ret pally is a huge healing liability for a healer... and they say there's going to be more aoe damage which means this will be more of a problem... i've covered this already, but i'll admit it wasn't with solid math.. it was my guestimations... so now you keep complaining about it and i feel we need to see how much of a liability ret is going to be in the upcoming aoe content... will we need our own designated healer because we are so self-destructive?
assuming you are geared well from naxx... this is taking the top geared ret pally on my server now as and example (sorry if there's better to use, i just needed some realistic numbers to use...) this is assuming BoK, BoM, MotW, Flask of Endless Rage, Fish Feast and this spec. this is looking him up using RAWR to add the buffs and get the info.
Drayeni on the kael'thas realm:
AP - 4752
SP - 1471
Betrayer of Humanity - (222.94dps/3.4 weapon speed)
Weapon damage - 2533
weapon speed - 2.90
crit% - 33.82 (54.82 judge crit)
4pc t7 = 10% DS/-1s judgement
glyph of judgement = 10% inc damage
AoW = 10% inc damage judgement & DS
overall damage increase = 21% (talents)
meta gem = 3% crit damage
i'm not calculating actual dps we'll be doing. just trying to calculate healer strain.
Judgement (11%AP+18%SP+26%WD) - 522.72+264.78+658.58 = 1446.08 x1.41 = 2039 (4200 crit)
Judgement recoil - 680 (1400 crit)
Seal - (48%WD) - 1215.84 x1.21 = 1471 (3030 crit)
Seal recoil - 147 (303 crit)
JoL (10%AP+10%SP) - 622 x1.05 = 653
Divine Storm (110%WD) - 2786.3 x1.41 = 3929 (8093 crit)
DS heal - 982 (2023 crit)
self only during a 2 min average:
17 judgements (7.7 reg/9.3 crits)
12 DS (8 reg/4 crits)
41 melee swings
20 CS
73 seal hits (48.3 reg/24.7 crits)
73 total hits proc'ing JoL
judgement recoil = 18,256 damage done to self
seal recoil = 14,584
total recoil = 32,840
DS heals = 5316 (total/3)
JoL heals = 47,669
total self-healing = 52,985
strain on healer (self-healing-recoil) = (-20,145)
so, based on my numbers (which may not be 100% correct, but are pretty close) we cause 167.875 hps more than we cause dps to ourself... so strain on healers... kinda non-existent when you ONLY count the JoL heals on yourself... add in JoL on everyone in your 10 or 25 man raid... the amount of strain you TAKE OFF OF YOUR HEALERS is incredible...
final conclusion, please stop whining. if you can show me where my math is wrong, please do. if you CAN'T then stop complaining about how much of a strain we are going to be on the healers in ulduar. right now with the current judgement/seal percentages yes, we cause some small strain on our healers because our judgements hit so stinking hard. however, that's about to change and yes, i realize my numbers are largely theory, but so is this idea that we'll be strain on the healers in 3.1 without any reason.
all the recoil will mean is our DS and JoL will actually have something to heal up on us and our DS heal will always target us for one of the 3 targets... bad? not really. thats still 2 other targets that DS can heal and um, 8-20 other players that our JoW can proc for causeing 8-20 TIMES the healing done... if anything the strain we take from our healers needs to be balanced down a little. it is kinda crazy that a ret pally in a 25 man raid can never cast a heal but still be ahead of some healers who are doing their job well...
once again, i'm sorry this is long, but you have kinda been asking for some discussion on your OP Goggy, so here it is... Oh, and yes, I did say you're whining... um, feel free to read why I think you are and then proceed to rate me down... ;)
Quote:
In answer to your OP statement about SoB I would suggest you take the time to read some WWS, just peruse some of the timed-runs for free on the front page, then report back with how many ret palas are topping the DPS charts. However, on that point, which I'll make as you haven't read the arguments, It's not about making ret palas top of the DPS, it's keeping them at a happy medium, which is pretty much where they are now, but without the handicap of recoil damage.
Yes, my guild does run WWS, and yes, i do read it. in fact, when i look at my damage taken, you are correct it is far and away higher then all other DPS' damage taken. However, when i press the little tab that says effective healing, i nearly negate ALL of that extra damage. my new value of how much stress im putting on the healers then becomes the exact same as all the other DPS.
there for, i have no problems with recoil what so ever. neither do the 24 other people i raid with. the only thing i really have an issues with, are the gimmick fights, but in 3.1 they are rebalancing the damage from judgments to seal procs. which nearly fixes that issues just fine.
toolofjesus wrote:
ok, you really want this staying to the OP... very well. this will be long, and i'm sorry... most of you won't care, but Goggy, please stay with me... i'm going to adress the OP which is what you want discussion on.
first of all, i start right off and really don't want to read it any further...
straight QQ... we might be the only ones... well... not really... i haven't kept up on priests, but last i knew their finishing move did damage back to them. um, a lock's "dps" maybe doesn't hurt him.... but if he doesn't use life tap, i'm pretty sure his dps will go down... so as best i can tell a lock has to hurt himself to do respectable dps... a hunter doesn't physically hurt himself, but intentionally reduces his damage for a limited time to do good overall dps... so yes, we may have the most consistent downside, but we're not the only ones... and anytime a kid says "but mommy, i'm the only one that..." noone denys that it's QQ.. why is it different here? you rate tommy down cause he called it QQ, but i bet you still hate hearing your kids say it...
um, maybe i'm wrong, but my judgement doesn't take 10k life off me... as far as the healing side.... next post in the thread by a healer shaman....
um, yeah.... need i comment? oh you say other classes saying it should be removed... i didn't get far in the threads, but i don't see it... this shaman healer seemed to think it was ok and you just need to learn to deal with it...
hmm, wait... further down in this guys post he has some suggestions... mostly pretty rediculous... but one of them is:
hmm, blizzard did this in their own way, but um... isn't this what blizz is doing? they've moved the damage from judgements to the seal and in doing so, reduced the recoil and spread it out so we're less likely to accidentally kill ourselves... so now that blizzard has done this on the ptr, why is this still coming up as an issue? they did listen... they took an idea that was out there and used it, or so it would seem.
ok, and the last post which brings me to why i really am responding again....
so, they say a ret pally is a huge healing liability for a healer... and they say there's going to be more aoe damage which means this will be more of a problem... i've covered this already, but i'll admit it wasn't with solid math.. it was my guestimations... so now you keep complaining about it and i feel we need to see how much of a liability ret is going to be in the upcoming aoe content... will we need our own designated healer because we are so self-destructive?
assuming you are geared well from naxx... this is taking the top geared ret pally on my server now as and example (sorry if there's better to use, i just needed some realistic numbers to use...) this is assuming BoK, BoM, MotW, Flask of Endless Rage, Fish Feast and this spec. this is looking him up using RAWR to add the buffs and get the info.
Drayeni on the kael'thas realm:
AP - 4752
SP - 1471
Betrayer of Humanity - (222.94dps/3.4 weapon speed)
Weapon damage - 2533
weapon speed - 2.90
crit% - 33.82 (54.82 judge crit)
4pc t7 = 10% DS/-1s judgement
glyph of judgement = 10% inc damage
AoW = 10% inc damage judgement & DS
overall damage increase = 21% (talents)
meta gem = 3% crit damage
i'm not calculating actual dps we'll be doing. just trying to calculate healer strain.
Judgement (11%AP+18%SP+26%WD) - 522.72+264.78+658.58 = 1446.08 x1.41 = 2039 (4200 crit)
Judgement recoil - 680 (1400 crit)
Seal - (48%WD) - 1215.84 x1.21 = 1471 (3030 crit)
Seal recoil - 147 (303 crit)
JoL (10%AP+10%SP) - 622 x1.05 = 653
Divine Storm (110%WD) - 2786.3 x1.41 = 3929 (8093 crit)
DS heal - 982 (2023 crit)
self only during a 2 min average:
17 judgements (7.7 reg/9.3 crits)
12 DS (8 reg/4 crits)
41 melee swings
20 CS
73 seal hits (48.3 reg/24.7 crits)
73 total hits proc'ing JoL
judgement recoil = 18,256 damage done to self
seal recoil = 14,584
total recoil = 32,840
DS heals = 5316 (total/3)
JoL heals = 47,669
total self-healing = 52,985
strain on healer (self-healing-recoil) = (-20,145)
so, based on my numbers (which may not be 100% correct, but are pretty close) we cause 167.875 hps more than we cause dps to ourself... so strain on healers... kinda non-existent when you ONLY count the JoL heals on yourself... add in JoL on everyone in your 10 or 25 man raid... the amount of strain you TAKE OFF OF YOUR HEALERS is incredible...
final conclusion, please stop whining. if you can show me where my math is wrong, please do. if you CAN'T then stop complaining about how much of a strain we are going to be on the healers in ulduar. right now with the current judgement/seal percentages yes, we cause some small strain on our healers because our judgements hit so stinking hard. however, that's about to change and yes, i realize my numbers are largely theory, but so is this idea that we'll be strain on the healers in 3.1 without any reason.
all the recoil will mean is our DS and JoL will actually have something to heal up on us and our DS heal will always target us for one of the 3 targets... bad? not really. thats still 2 other targets that DS can heal and um, 8-20 other players that our JoW can proc for causeing 8-20 TIMES the healing done... if anything the strain we take from our healers needs to be balanced down a little. it is kinda crazy that a ret pally in a 25 man raid can never cast a heal but still be ahead of some healers who are doing their job well...
once again, i'm sorry this is long, but you have kinda been asking for some discussion on your OP Goggy, so here it is... Oh, and yes, I did say you're whining... um, feel free to read why I think you are and then proceed to rate me down... ;)
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
Started by the EJ guys on the O-Boards, now spans 20 pages with other classes agreeing it should be removed. If you'd like to lend your weight it is here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15671257853&sid=1&pageNo=1
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15671257853&sid=1&pageNo=1
first of all, i start right off and really don't want to read it any further...
Quote:
We are the only class that has to hurt itself (insert Emo Pally comments here) to do respectable DPS. Even then we aren't close to being top or even really good, even with us doing 2k dps to ourselves.
straight QQ... we might be the only ones... well... not really... i haven't kept up on priests, but last i knew their finishing move did damage back to them. um, a lock's "dps" maybe doesn't hurt him.... but if he doesn't use life tap, i'm pretty sure his dps will go down... so as best i can tell a lock has to hurt himself to do respectable dps... a hunter doesn't physically hurt himself, but intentionally reduces his damage for a limited time to do good overall dps... so yes, we may have the most consistent downside, but we're not the only ones... and anytime a kid says "but mommy, i'm the only one that..." noone denys that it's QQ.. why is it different here? you rate tommy down cause he called it QQ, but i bet you still hate hearing your kids say it...
Quote:
but now a judgement taking off 10k life makes us a severe sore spot on healers when the upcoming content is looking like it'll be tougher on healers anyways
um, maybe i'm wrong, but my judgement doesn't take 10k life off me... as far as the healing side.... next post in the thread by a healer shaman....
Quote:
Did EJ fall into QQs?
As a healer, I don't see how Martyr is any different than Lifetap. If these are such a liability that your healers can't keep up... something's wrong..
As a healer, I don't see how Martyr is any different than Lifetap. If these are such a liability that your healers can't keep up... something's wrong..
um, yeah.... need i comment? oh you say other classes saying it should be removed... i didn't get far in the threads, but i don't see it... this shaman healer seemed to think it was ok and you just need to learn to deal with it...
hmm, wait... further down in this guys post he has some suggestions... mostly pretty rediculous... but one of them is:
Quote:
- You can make decent arguments either way, however i feel the easiest solution would be to make SoC baseline at level 20, the low level DPS seal and make SoB its replacement at 64. Can leave the mechanics the same basically. If SoB without a penalty is too strong in its current form then can simply move a portion of the judgment damage into the seal damage (at greater than a 1:1 ratio in order to make up for the lost RV damage, or move it 1:1 and add seal crits to RV). Then to make up for the lost SA mana can either buff JotW or do something with DP similar to prot as suggested.
hmm, blizzard did this in their own way, but um... isn't this what blizz is doing? they've moved the damage from judgements to the seal and in doing so, reduced the recoil and spread it out so we're less likely to accidentally kill ourselves... so now that blizzard has done this on the ptr, why is this still coming up as an issue? they did listen... they took an idea that was out there and used it, or so it would seem.
ok, and the last post which brings me to why i really am responding again....
Quote:
Now which would you have in a raid, a Ret pally and his designated healer (because thats what it could come down to) or 2 extra dps?
so, they say a ret pally is a huge healing liability for a healer... and they say there's going to be more aoe damage which means this will be more of a problem... i've covered this already, but i'll admit it wasn't with solid math.. it was my guestimations... so now you keep complaining about it and i feel we need to see how much of a liability ret is going to be in the upcoming aoe content... will we need our own designated healer because we are so self-destructive?
assuming you are geared well from naxx... this is taking the top geared ret pally on my server now as and example (sorry if there's better to use, i just needed some realistic numbers to use...) this is assuming BoK, BoM, MotW, Flask of Endless Rage, Fish Feast and this spec. this is looking him up using RAWR to add the buffs and get the info.
Drayeni on the kael'thas realm:
AP - 4752
SP - 1471
Betrayer of Humanity - (222.94dps/3.4 weapon speed)
Weapon damage - 2533
weapon speed - 2.90
crit% - 33.82 (54.82 judge crit)
4pc t7 = 10% DS/-1s judgement
glyph of judgement = 10% inc damage
AoW = 10% inc damage judgement & DS
overall damage increase = 21% (talents)
meta gem = 3% crit damage
i'm not calculating actual dps we'll be doing. just trying to calculate healer strain.
Judgement (11%AP+18%SP+26%WD) - 522.72+264.78+658.58 = 1446.08 x1.41 = 2039 (4200 crit)
Judgement recoil - 680 (1400 crit)
Seal - (48%WD) - 1215.84 x1.21 = 1471 (3030 crit)
Seal recoil - 147 (303 crit)
JoL (10%AP+10%SP) - 622 x1.05 = 653
Divine Storm (110%WD) - 2786.3 x1.41 = 3929 (8093 crit)
DS heal - 982 (2023 crit)
self only during a 2 min average:
17 judgements (7.7 reg/9.3 crits)
12 DS (8 reg/4 crits)
41 melee swings
20 CS
73 seal hits (48.3 reg/24.7 crits)
73 total hits proc'ing JoL
judgement recoil = 18,256 damage done to self
seal recoil = 14,584
total recoil = 32,840
DS heals = 5316 (total/3)
JoL heals = 47,669
total self-healing = 52,985
strain on healer (self-healing-recoil) = (-20,145)
so, based on my numbers (which may not be 100% correct, but are pretty close) we cause 167.875 hps more than we cause dps to ourself... so strain on healers... kinda non-existent when you ONLY count the JoL heals on yourself... add in JoL on everyone in your 10 or 25 man raid... the amount of strain you TAKE OFF OF YOUR HEALERS is incredible...
final conclusion, please stop whining. if you can show me where my math is wrong, please do. if you CAN'T then stop complaining about how much of a strain we are going to be on the healers in ulduar. right now with the current judgement/seal percentages yes, we cause some small strain on our healers because our judgements hit so stinking hard. however, that's about to change and yes, i realize my numbers are largely theory, but so is this idea that we'll be strain on the healers in 3.1 without any reason.
all the recoil will mean is our DS and JoL will actually have something to heal up on us and our DS heal will always target us for one of the 3 targets... bad? not really. thats still 2 other targets that DS can heal and um, 8-20 other players that our JoW can proc for causeing 8-20 TIMES the healing done... if anything the strain we take from our healers needs to be balanced down a little. it is kinda crazy that a ret pally in a 25 man raid can never cast a heal but still be ahead of some healers who are doing their job well...
once again, i'm sorry this is long, but you have kinda been asking for some discussion on your OP Goggy, so here it is... Oh, and yes, I did say you're whining... um, feel free to read why I think you are and then proceed to rate me down... ;)
Yawn, all of the stuff you have posted has been answered in all the threads posted, quoting the few **** knockers that come onto the o-boards is like stating the obvious that maybe asshats frequent the o-boards. Their amazing input isn't that insightful, what is insightful is the the working out done by guys who understand this stuff. To be honest the mechanics I do not have the time, inclination or understanding to get that wrapped up in, but I can speed read over the results, for example your mentioning the priests life tap, I suggest you do a comparison on WWS, the recoil is nowhere near the same.
This is only going to get worse when Ulduar comes out.
I'd rather not get into a massive long debate about his, the mechanics are there, other people have done the math you either agree or don't, I do, you don't that's fine, thank you, you can go on your way.
Quote:
The whole point is, which people seem to be struggling to grasp, is that to do that damage you have to take damage yourself. In Naxx 25 I do 3.2k-3.5k DPS, I generally sit mid table. The issue is not whether I am top of the DPS, it is that fact that to be mid-table I have to take damage because I need to use SotM/SoB. No other class has to do this.
[Nitpickybitch]
Shadow priests use SW:D in their rotation.
[/Nitpickybitch]
Dilandou's WWS
here you go, this is from Nax yesterday.
TL:DR break down.
my Dmg. in
4.4 mil
my effective healing
2.7
my actual strain on the healers
1.7 mil damage
which is about 23 out of 25 for damage taken.
at no point in the raid was i full healing or off tanking anything. these numbers are from ONLY pew pew.
now considering that our self damage will even lower after 3.1, i think its time for the Recoil QQ to freaking stop. seriously. anyone who truly complains about this mechanic after 3.1 is completely ignorant of Ret and should just re roll/spec.
Edit: if your WWS differs from mine so greatly that you can still hold argument, then you are just terrible at ret and ignorant. . . . just say'n
Edit2: i was also able to use SoB 100% of the entire instance, Saph, Thadius, Gluth, even Loatheb, hell i even have no problem with SoB during Maly 3stacks while i pop wings and our Blood DK gives me hysteria. you have the tools you need to both DPS and not be a burdon. use them.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 10:52am by RuenBahamut
here you go, this is from Nax yesterday.
TL:DR break down.
my Dmg. in
4.4 mil
my effective healing
2.7
my actual strain on the healers
1.7 mil damage
which is about 23 out of 25 for damage taken.
at no point in the raid was i full healing or off tanking anything. these numbers are from ONLY pew pew.
now considering that our self damage will even lower after 3.1, i think its time for the Recoil QQ to freaking stop. seriously. anyone who truly complains about this mechanic after 3.1 is completely ignorant of Ret and should just re roll/spec.
Edit: if your WWS differs from mine so greatly that you can still hold argument, then you are just terrible at ret and ignorant. . . . just say'n
Edit2: i was also able to use SoB 100% of the entire instance, Saph, Thadius, Gluth, even Loatheb, hell i even have no problem with SoB during Maly 3stacks while i pop wings and our Blood DK gives me hysteria. you have the tools you need to both DPS and not be a burdon. use them.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 10:52am by RuenBahamut
I think all that time spent on the O-boards has clouded you mind Goggy.
I read the first two pages of both links. I was responding to your posts not that which is posted on the Oboards.
The only time you should really be in that position is on Gluth and Thaddius. If you die on Thaddius it means someone has probably crossed charges and if your using DBM on Gluth you should know when he is going to decimate. Show me a fight in Naxx Goggy where you will go from 100% to death only due to SotM recoil damage? If there was such a fight then this topic would be moot and Blizzard would do away with the recoil damage.
The O-boards are for QQing therefore I rarely read anything from there unless its coming from a reliable Alla poster here. The only thread that I would link to posters from the O-boards is that hilarious shaman pvp post. If you cant see all the flamers, QQers and trolls on those forums there then you are blind.
If you knew what Ret Paladin dps was like before SotM, the threat fixes and all the other buffs we were given since then you wouldn't be blaming it for your fail dps in raids. Your complaining that recoil damage is hurting your dps when it is currently your best way to regenerate mana via spirital attunement and raid heals. Your inability to finish Naxx off has nothing to do with the current design of Ret dps.
One other thing. I like the others here don't care for your ratedown threats. Rate me down if you like. Going by the post ratings and who is flaming who in this thread its easy to see who should be opening up a [Can of STFU].
Here is a link to that shaman post for those of you who havent seen it yet.
I read the first two pages of both links. I was responding to your posts not that which is posted on the Oboards.
Goggy wrote:
I've only been in a raiding guild for a short time, if you're wondering why I'm only just finishing Naxx! The number of times I had to switch to SoC or step back from the fight and heal myself is a joke.
The only time you should really be in that position is on Gluth and Thaddius. If you die on Thaddius it means someone has probably crossed charges and if your using DBM on Gluth you should know when he is going to decimate. Show me a fight in Naxx Goggy where you will go from 100% to death only due to SotM recoil damage? If there was such a fight then this topic would be moot and Blizzard would do away with the recoil damage.
The O-boards are for QQing therefore I rarely read anything from there unless its coming from a reliable Alla poster here. The only thread that I would link to posters from the O-boards is that hilarious shaman pvp post. If you cant see all the flamers, QQers and trolls on those forums there then you are blind.
Goggy wrote:
The issue is not whether I am top of the DPS, it is that fact that to be mid-table I have to take damage because I need to use SotM/SoB. No other class has to do this.
If you knew what Ret Paladin dps was like before SotM, the threat fixes and all the other buffs we were given since then you wouldn't be blaming it for your fail dps in raids. Your complaining that recoil damage is hurting your dps when it is currently your best way to regenerate mana via spirital attunement and raid heals. Your inability to finish Naxx off has nothing to do with the current design of Ret dps.
One other thing. I like the others here don't care for your ratedown threats. Rate me down if you like. Going by the post ratings and who is flaming who in this thread its easy to see who should be opening up a [Can of STFU].
Here is a link to that shaman post for those of you who havent seen it yet.
#35REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 02 2009 at 9:55 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jesus, a big bag of stupid has opened.
I love it when Goggy ends a thread by being a sarcastic douche. its very productive.
Hey, um, people responded to the concern very accurately. An you know what? Tool of Jesus is the primary ret numbah krunchah on alla, and he's always right, as far as i can tell. I trust him as much or more than the EJ consensus. He (and several others gave a very detailed response to the concern that certainly convinced me that the backsplash isn't a problem: to wit, heals done by JoL more than make up for the damage rets self inflict, and the raid benefit one brings as a ret more than makes up for needing occasional heals.
On top of that, as was also repeatedly pointed out, Bliz has changed the way SoM works, shifting damage from the judgment to the seal. Meaning no huge spikes in self damage, meaning the problem will be LESS in 3.1 than it is now. Also meaning, Bliz responded to the concerns and responded appropriately, and they've got a few weeks yet to frob the numbers if they need to.
So, wft man? why is it that whenever people give you long, detailed responses countering a claim by you, well backed up with evidence and specific suggestions, do you respond with variants on "whaaaaa! I'm all sarcastic and need to QQ more! you guys are dum!"
Its kind of irritating.
Hey, um, people responded to the concern very accurately. An you know what? Tool of Jesus is the primary ret numbah krunchah on alla, and he's always right, as far as i can tell. I trust him as much or more than the EJ consensus. He (and several others gave a very detailed response to the concern that certainly convinced me that the backsplash isn't a problem: to wit, heals done by JoL more than make up for the damage rets self inflict, and the raid benefit one brings as a ret more than makes up for needing occasional heals.
On top of that, as was also repeatedly pointed out, Bliz has changed the way SoM works, shifting damage from the judgment to the seal. Meaning no huge spikes in self damage, meaning the problem will be LESS in 3.1 than it is now. Also meaning, Bliz responded to the concerns and responded appropriately, and they've got a few weeks yet to frob the numbers if they need to.
So, wft man? why is it that whenever people give you long, detailed responses countering a claim by you, well backed up with evidence and specific suggestions, do you respond with variants on "whaaaaa! I'm all sarcastic and need to QQ more! you guys are dum!"
Its kind of irritating.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
Yawn, all of the stuff you have posted has been answered in all the threads posted, quoting the few **** knockers that come onto the o-boards is like stating the obvious that maybe asshats frequent the o-boards.
hmm, i'm pretty sure i quoted the OP twice... and yes, the second post. however, reading farther down (wow was that painful) i didn't see anyone put any reasons out there any more inteligently than the OP of that thread. they DIDN'T answer any of what i said and i bet you didn't even read what i read. re-read it again. and point out where my numbers are wrong. did i forget something? if not then drop your argument because if my math is right (and i'm pretty sure it's at least close enough to be accurate) then there is NO reason to lose the recoil. I answered your OP like you wanted us to and you can't think of something intelligent to counter it with?
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
Their amazing input isn't that insightful, what is insightful is the the working out done by guys who understand this stuff. To be honest the mechanics I do not have the time, inclination or understanding to get that wrapped up in, but I can speed read over the results, for example your mentioning the priests life tap, I suggest you do a comparison on WWS, the recoil is nowhere near the same.
ok. first... i said it was locks life tap and i didn't remember the priest ability... but at least i know priests don't have life tap ;) secondly, i don't care what the WWS says about them, cause i didn't say they were the same recoil. just that the idea that "no one else has to mommy" is wrong. we may have the most recoil damage, but we also have THE MOST passive raid healing of any class, comparable to bringing our dps AND another healer just from our one main damaging attack, JoL. oh, and um, clearly you do not have "the time, inclination or understanding". some of us do have the understanding. I also have the time, inclination and um, basic math skills to figure it out... (i know, i know... decimals are hard right?)
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
This is only going to get worse when Ulduar comes out.
meh, the pally who's stats i used is as close as we can get to ulduar stats (at least on my server). yes, the stats will be higher... but i'm pretty sure as his AP gets higher his recoil AND his JoL/DS healing will increase too. i'm honestly not worried that Ulduar will make this problem any worse.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
I'd rather not get into a massive long debate about his, the mechanics are there, other people have done the math you either agree or don't, I do, you don't that's fine, thank you, you can go on your way.
hmm, it would seem that you do want to get into a long debate about it. others before me mentioned simple reasons why it wouldn't really be best or necessary to remove the recoil. you insisted they were wrong and when they got off topic after the short debate, you asked them to get back to the OP. so, lets debate. show me where i'm wrong. show me hard numbers that show how much of a strain a good ret pally is on his healers.
oh, last thing... ret pallies may not be top dps. what causes me to really not take your o-board posters serious is that they insist we are high strain on the healers + we do dps "just above the tanks". i already showed why we are not causing the healers strain and in fact are taking a lot of strain OFF the healers. any well played and correctly geared ret paladin should not be poor dps. ret dps at the moment is a joke. compared to BC we do much MUCH more dps and all it takes is a few smart gear choices and some button smashing. 3.1 doesn't look like it will change this too much. a properly played ret pally may still fall behind a properly played mage or rogue or hunter but, not by much.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
Jesus, a big bag of stupid has opened.
Do what you want retards, either add your weight to the thread or don't.
@#%^ me.
Do what you want retards, either add your weight to the thread or don't.
@#%^ me.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
@#%^ me
this is absolutely correct, considering every sing post in this thread was a direct result of your ignorance/bad attitude shown in your posts.
if next time you dont really want a long debate like you say. then simply dont post, its that easy. then we wont have to agrue with you. 8)
Edit: used the same word too many times in a sentance . .
Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 12:39pm by RuenBahamut
Over on Heroic Patchwerk, where it's easiest to come up with these numbers, I average 8k JoB crits. That means 2700 recoil, every 7 seconds, or 385 DTPS. Renew ticks every 3 seconds, so I'll use renew.
1157 damage taken from JoB recoil every 3 seconds. Renew from my guild's healers ticks for 1646 average, according to my last 25-naxx WWS log. SoB does not cause recoil damage anywhere near 500 per 3 seconds, and this doesn't consider any sort of AoE heal.
If you die to S/JoB recoil, either your healers hate you, or you killed yourself on purpose. Don't judge right after Decimate, don't judge during Loatheb if you see your HP is low, don't judge during Thaddius when your HP is low, don't judge Razuvious's adds after he dies, and SoB will not kill you.
1157 damage taken from JoB recoil every 3 seconds. Renew from my guild's healers ticks for 1646 average, according to my last 25-naxx WWS log. SoB does not cause recoil damage anywhere near 500 per 3 seconds, and this doesn't consider any sort of AoE heal.
If you die to S/JoB recoil, either your healers hate you, or you killed yourself on purpose. Don't judge right after Decimate, don't judge during Loatheb if you see your HP is low, don't judge during Thaddius when your HP is low, don't judge Razuvious's adds after he dies, and SoB will not kill you.
A while back, I posted a question about whether the dps increase from using SoB/SotM vs. anything else justified the damage a ret pally would take over the course of a given encounter. My question stemmed from a series of botched guild Kel'Thuzad attempts (after we had already downed him several times...I had the helm and the axe to show for it).
The response I got was twofold:
1) Yes, because it gives ret pallies more lost health forcing outside heals for mana returns via Spiritual Attunement and
2) Yes, because it's not such a significant amount of damage that a decent group couldn't heal through it.
And that is precisely why so few people take the kvetches of ret pallies seriously.
Honestly guys, you need to pick one side of the fence and stay there. When you've got the same people arguing both sides of the coin as it suits them, sooner or later everyone else stops taking those people seriously. You can't site the problems a class/spec experiences in very specific gimmick situations as justification for adjustment.
And this, "How many different angles can I come up with as a ret pally to try and sneak a dps buff in here and there" crap would do well to stop, too.
Don't believe me? Here are the "fixes" proposed by the OP in that thread:
Translation: Buff JotW so it goes back to the way it was...we never run out of mana.
Translation: Remove the penalty and replace it with something that looks like a penalty but is only a lesser penalty in some fights and no penalty at all in others.
Translation: Here is my cake on the table. Here is my mouth. Can all of the cake be both on the table and in my mouth at the same time please?
Translation: My subject suggests this thread is about recoil damage from SoB/SotM, but in reality it should read, "Buff ret dmg pl0x". Sorry 'bout that. Just didn't want this thread to get lost in the other mountain of ret QQ.
Translation: In case you missed it: buff damage and mana return with no penalty pl0x. Kthxbai.
You know how you read something or listen to something with an open mind and then the person who wrote the piece/is speaking makes that one little slip that shoots all of their credibility to hell? That was the one right there. That one slip that went from, "Hmmm..." to, "oh ffs not again."
Translation: Keep the damage, get rid of the health loss, and impose a penalty that will only kick in if a ret pally is bad. As in...can't manage threat and likes to stand in cleave zones bad.
Srsly? And you people take this pap like it's jam packed with good ideas? It's not. It's a malformed argument.
The response I got was twofold:
1) Yes, because it gives ret pallies more lost health forcing outside heals for mana returns via Spiritual Attunement and
2) Yes, because it's not such a significant amount of damage that a decent group couldn't heal through it.
And that is precisely why so few people take the kvetches of ret pallies seriously.
Honestly guys, you need to pick one side of the fence and stay there. When you've got the same people arguing both sides of the coin as it suits them, sooner or later everyone else stops taking those people seriously. You can't site the problems a class/spec experiences in very specific gimmick situations as justification for adjustment.
And this, "How many different angles can I come up with as a ret pally to try and sneak a dps buff in here and there" crap would do well to stop, too.
Don't believe me? Here are the "fixes" proposed by the OP in that thread:
Quote:
Get rid of recoil, and buff JotW to compensate for SA. Remove SA from Ret and it'd be infinitely easier to balance our mana to what the devs have always wanted, rather than OOM on some fights and too much mana on others.
Translation: Buff JotW so it goes back to the way it was...we never run out of mana.
Quote:
removing self-damage entirely, making JoB cause us take 10% more damage for 10 seconds, and rebalancing JotW to make us better self-sustaining be a way to keep us non-suicidal in PvE while still having SoB be unappealing for PvP?
Translation: Remove the penalty and replace it with something that looks like a penalty but is only a lesser penalty in some fights and no penalty at all in others.
Quote:
Remove recoil, Allow our critical holy attacks to give us mana back much like the Illumination mechanism on critical heals in the Holy Tree. When we crit, we get mana. This idea is already a part of the paladin class, why not use it in the Ret Tree as well?
Translation: Here is my cake on the table. Here is my mouth. Can all of the cake be both on the table and in my mouth at the same time please?
Quote:
Remove recoil, Allow our critical holy attacks to give us mana back much like the Illumination mechanism on critical heals in the Holy Tree. When we crit, we get mana. This idea is already a part of the paladin class, why not use it in the Ret Tree as well?
Translation: My subject suggests this thread is about recoil damage from SoB/SotM, but in reality it should read, "Buff ret dmg pl0x". Sorry 'bout that. Just didn't want this thread to get lost in the other mountain of ret QQ.
Quote:
replacing consecration and DS in our single target "rotation" with abilities that cost ~250 mana means we don't have any need for SA. And hey, they could be a great way of buffing our lackluster single target dps
Translation: In case you missed it: buff damage and mana return with no penalty pl0x. Kthxbai.
Quote:
New Seal of the Martyr
All melee attacks deal X to Y additional Holy damage, but the Paladin sacrifices 10% of his armor for 4 seconds. this effect can not stack with itself. Lasts 30 min.
All melee attacks deal X to Y additional Holy damage, but the Paladin sacrifices 10% of his armor for 4 seconds. this effect can not stack with itself. Lasts 30 min.
You know how you read something or listen to something with an open mind and then the person who wrote the piece/is speaking makes that one little slip that shoots all of their credibility to hell? That was the one right there. That one slip that went from, "Hmmm..." to, "oh ffs not again."
Translation: Keep the damage, get rid of the health loss, and impose a penalty that will only kick in if a ret pally is bad. As in...can't manage threat and likes to stand in cleave zones bad.
Srsly? And you people take this pap like it's jam packed with good ideas? It's not. It's a malformed argument.
ok, just for fun i looked up some wws reports... looking at the most recent wws reports on the website i find a ret pally named sagittarius. he was 3rd on the dps meter apparenlty at 3977 dps. it was a 3hr clear according to wws, so definitely a decently skilled group. so i pull up his report... relevant to this discussion he did:
1,765,020 holy damage to himself (recoil)
13,076,353 healing from JoL
370,147 healing from Divine Storm
so yes, i looked up a wws report like you said and um, it sure seems that he did much much more healing than he had to take from recoil.
this is it if you want to see it
another to make sure it's not just the random wws.... 25 man malygos i find Scorpio. he apparenlty wasn't using JoL, which i find to be somewhat questionable since he was the highest dps ret which is usually who should do JoL for maximum benefit. but he did 3270 dps. he did:
286,781 holy damage to himself (recoil)
73,422 healing from Divine Storm
not using JoL he took a total of 213,359 damage to himself over 16:08 minutes that he didn't heal up himself. for the math wiz's out there that's 220 DTPS... hardly a significant amount. looking farther down the list on that one there was another pally using JoL. his JoL did 2,604,500 healing... which had the ret pally been using that would have more than made up for his recoil damage taken. so this one even shows that the recoil is not terribly significant...
if you're interested in looking at it
1,765,020 holy damage to himself (recoil)
13,076,353 healing from JoL
370,147 healing from Divine Storm
so yes, i looked up a wws report like you said and um, it sure seems that he did much much more healing than he had to take from recoil.
this is it if you want to see it
another to make sure it's not just the random wws.... 25 man malygos i find Scorpio. he apparenlty wasn't using JoL, which i find to be somewhat questionable since he was the highest dps ret which is usually who should do JoL for maximum benefit. but he did 3270 dps. he did:
286,781 holy damage to himself (recoil)
73,422 healing from Divine Storm
not using JoL he took a total of 213,359 damage to himself over 16:08 minutes that he didn't heal up himself. for the math wiz's out there that's 220 DTPS... hardly a significant amount. looking farther down the list on that one there was another pally using JoL. his JoL did 2,604,500 healing... which had the ret pally been using that would have more than made up for his recoil damage taken. so this one even shows that the recoil is not terribly significant...
if you're interested in looking at it
The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
Jesus, a big bag of stupid has opened.
Do what you want retards, either add your weight to the thread or don't.
@#%^ me.
Do what you want retards, either add your weight to the thread or don't.
@#%^ me.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
@#%^ me
this is absolutely correct, considering every sing post in this thread was a direct result of your ignorance/bad attitude shown in your posts.
if next time you dont really want a long debate like you say. then simply dont post, its that easy. then we wont have to agrue with you. 8)
Edit: used the same word too many times in a sentance . .
Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 12:39pm by RuenBahamut
You're right I don't want a long debate and that's what came out here. As I aid the arguments people are posting have been done over and over, you guys want to make walls of text here because a. I can't be bothered to regurgitate what has been said elsewhere and b. You don't listen anyway, as is evident in your continued ignorance.
I can't work out whether RuenBahamut is just foreign, stupid or both.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
I can't work out whether I am just foreign, stupid or both.
Fixed that for you.
It seems that the majority of us here are agreeing with what Ruen, Tommy and ToolofJesus have stated in their posts. I dont blame you or the O-boards for this. At the end of the day it seems that QQing is the only way to get the devs at Blizzard to fix anything. SotM recoil is being redesigned for better or worse. We will see in time which one it will be.
Edited, Apr 3rd 2009 8:51am by arthoriuss
arthoriuss wrote:
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
I can't work out whether I am just foreign, stupid or both.
Fixed that for you.
It seems that the majority of us here are agreeing with what Ruen, Tommy and ToolofJesus have stated in their posts. I dont blame you or the O-boards for this. At the end of the day it seems that QQing is the only way to get the devs at Blizzard to fix anything. SotM recoil is being redesigned for better or worse. We will see in time which one it will be.
Edited, Apr 3rd 2009 8:51am by arthoriuss
Yeah, don't fix what isn't broken.
Don't forget one mans QQ is another man's genuine complaint.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
arthoriuss wrote:
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
I can't work out whether I am just foreign, stupid or both.
Fixed that for you.
It seems that the majority of us here are agreeing with what Ruen, Tommy and ToolofJesus have stated in their posts. I dont blame you or the O-boards for this. At the end of the day it seems that QQing is the only way to get the devs at Blizzard to fix anything. SotM recoil is being redesigned for better or worse. We will see in time which one it will be.
Edited, Apr 3rd 2009 8:51am by arthoriuss
Yeah, don't fix what isn't broken.
Don't forget one mans QQ is another man's genuine complaint.
yep.... exactly Goggy... don't fix what isn't broken... SoB/tM recoil is not a broken mechanic. do I like being emo to do dps? not really, but its a valid mechanic for ensuring ret pallies will think before using it. it works much better than any of the weak suggestions your OP wanted... I would worry more about the potentials of the nerfs to RV or Fanatacism long before i'd worry about SoB recoil (i'm not convinced yet that those will be a problem, but they're closer than the recoil).
oh, and goggy, i've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are an intelligent person. I posted solid math theory. I even looked up WWS reports to get real data to test my theory... both of those verified my point. you have proved you don't want intelligent discussion on this. we brought valid counter-arguments but all you can come back with is questions about Ruen's national origins. so what if he's not american? do you really think your american whining trumps solid thinking, American or otherwise? yes, Ruen's grammar and spelling is not always perfect. this isn't a grammar forum, it's a paladin forum. and Ruen has proven many times over to be one of our experts on paladins in general and especially retribution. I would appreciate you leaving the debate on topic and not devolve to personal attacks on established members of this paly forum.
#47REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 03 2009 at 7:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Right I've got more time now.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
Right I've got more time now.
Yes you're are boring, you're also obtuse. You have failed continuously to read that I couldn't care less about your workings out, you have failed to read that this is not me solely asking for this change, this is very little, aside from providing the link, to do with me. Yep you continue to point the finger at me. Don't agree with it, fine, post your piece and @#%^ off.
Yes you're are boring, you're also obtuse. You have failed continuously to read that I couldn't care less about your workings out, you have failed to read that this is not me solely asking for this change, this is very little, aside from providing the link, to do with me. Yep you continue to point the finger at me. Don't agree with it, fine, post your piece and @#%^ off.
i know, i've been told that before... typically by other people who want to QQ or don't want to change their opinion even if they're wrong. your first several posts made it clear you agreed w/ the o-board poster and wanted discussion. you even asked us to stay on topic. we stayed on topic and our points were valid. now we're boring. now that i actually answer your OP post i'm "obtuse". i'm pretty sure that i DID realize what your OP was about and answer that directly. the only other QQ you had was that pallies don't top damage meters, which is probably your real complaint, but you're using the recoil as an outlet. you say i failed to read that this is not you... um, i'm pretty sure i LINKED THE POST FROM THE O-BOARD and answered what he had to say (which you obviously supported). you argued back which took the debate back to you. i'm pretty sure the failure to understand is not us. It's you. you've changed your mind and no longer feel you can win the arguement so now all of a sudden halfway through this thread you don't want to discuss the OP anymore. instead you'd rather attack intelligent arguments by questioning the intelligence of the poster. very smart...
#49REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 03 2009 at 8:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Man you are ******* stupid.
Archfiend Goggy wrote:
Man you are @#%^ing stupid.
I don't want to discuss this with you because I have read the Elitist Jerks forum and have taken their evidence over yours.
Get over yourself you pathetic little ****.
I don't want to discuss this with you because I have read the Elitist Jerks forum and have taken their evidence over yours.
Get over yourself you pathetic little ****.
Just a few ideas for you to ponder...even though what I've seen of you thus far on these forums suggests very strongly that you don't really care what anyone else has to say unless they're telling you you're right.
1) If you think that just because it's posted on Elitist Jerks that it has any sort of credibility, you're wrong. Elitist Jerks used to be a think-tank for top players where they could get bawls deep in the theorycraft with like minded folks. Then word got out that Elitist Jerks is the place to go for definitive answers about WoW's most pressing performance questions and the not-quite-so-tep players started flocking to it, all seemingly with the false notion that if they could drop the name "Elitist Jerks" in their subsequent misinterpreted dribble that everyone would have to take them seriously by default. Fast forward a little bit again and the same not-quite-so-top players started contributing to EJ discussions as though they are themselves experts and the EJ public forums suddenly became...no better than any other fansite for reliability of information. You can still find good discussions on Elitist Jerks, but you can no longer drop the name like it has any meaning. Now, saying, "Well I read on Elitist Jerks..." is pretty much the same as, "Well, my daddy told me..." See what I'm getting at?
2) The reasons why the o-boards OP you linked has been picked apart have been stated very clearly for you. Unfortunately, you've got the distinct privilege of being one of those class/specs that Blizzard has had a ******* of a time trying to balance over the years because buffing a plate wearing hybrid for PvE is damn hard to do without creating an unstoppable PvP juggernaut, and we saw direct proof of that when 3.0 first went live right up until the infamous "to the ground" nerfs came down.
As a tank and raid adviser, I had serious concerns about the damage our ret pallies were taking from SotM in fights where our healers were already heavily taxed, so I asked here to get some feedback from more experienced ret pallies to see if they had a similar feeling about the situation, and they didn't. SotM recoil damage is balanced in part by health returns from JoL and Divine Storm. What's left is a minor health deficit that is converted to mana when your healers top you off. That's the case in the overwhelming majority of fights. If you're going to pinpoint the tiny number of encounters where the gimmicks make SoB/SotM a more significant risk, you're barking up the wrong tree.
You have other options if your current seal is putting you at risk. Don't let the current seal duration fool you...managing seals used to be a significant part of any paladin's rotation, even if they were just re-sealing the same thing over and over again. If your health is low and the next Judgement could kill you, re-seal to Crusader until your health is back up. When I read the responses of people to that suggestion, it's like they had all just finished stuffing their faces at the ****** sandwich buffet. No one has suggested you use Crusader all the time on fights with damage buffs as part of their gimmick...you can re-seal Blood/Martyr as soon as your health would sustain it. But no, that requires a little more thought and a little more attention and if you can't seal it and leave it, it's obviously broken, amirite?
So you post a link to a thread on the o-boards in what would appear to be the hopes of drumming up support for it. Cool. Nothing wrong with that...but then you get into the screaming and stomping of feet when folks explain to you why they don't support it. It would have been one thing for you.
3) Your tendency to not only get severely butthurt but to then allow your response to degrade to not more than adolescent profanity and name-calling is two steps beyond lame. You're read too many posts from bodhi and Theophany but failed to grasp one fundamental difference: they're tolerated because they've made solid contributions to these forums...you haven't.
I took issue with the OP on the o-boards not because I think ret pallies are fine, but because I found his complaint to be borderline whining and his solutions to be flat out retarded. His "final" recommendation where he listed the "new" tooltips for seal/judgement mechanics was about as stereotypically ret as you could hope for. Ya...the new penalty for ret pallies using SotM/SoB is that they'll take a bit of a hit in the physical DR category...when as ret pallies they shouldn't be taking physical damage in the first place...and the DR they're left with will still be considerably more than the DR from armor seen by rogues, kitty druids, and enhancement shaman. Brilliant.
And that's the issue people have with ret pallies as a stereotype group...not that their class is fine and they just whine out of habit, but the fact that maybe they could use some tweaking here and there, but 9 times out of 10 when a would-be ret expert speaks up with suggestions, it's a whole mess of, "How you should tweak us to make us OP again."
#51REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 03 2009 at 10:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Like no other class whines? You bring nothing to the table but stupid. Eat up.
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