SoB/SotM Recoil Damage ThreadFollow

Updated patch notes:

The recoil is the POINT of this spell. It is not meant to be a free upgrade to Seal of Righteousness. It is meant - like all the other paladin seals - to be a tool useful under some circumstances and not under others. It is an inclease in damage IF the paladin can take it, and IF the healers can deal with it.

The kind of decision you claim to be making - to step back and heal, or to change seals - is exactly the kind of decision Blizz WANT the player to be making. It's a strategical choice, testing the player's ability to react to the situation and change their playstyle to match. It is not meant to be an all-round super-seal, capable of making Command obsolete and making retridins even more powerful in PvP than they already are.

Yes, I have seen paladins kill themselves in raid situations because they were using Blood and weren't paying attention to their own health bar. It isn't Blizz's fault they died, it is the players. And conversely, it is to your credit that you avoided that trap; it shows a certain amount of mastery of your class, which is to be commended.

SO I disagree Tommy - or at least I hope I do - about Blizz removing the kickback on Blood. That's the point of the spell (just look at the name) and that's the one thing that makes Blood the situational use spell that it should be.

The complaint is, why do pallys and pallys alone have to take a huge penalty like that, and become a drain on the healers, in order to do the same damage as other "hybrid" classes? If we use SoC, our DPS is ****. Its a leveling seal, little more.

I could see that, if using command put us at the 5% below pure damage classes, and martyr put us on par with the pure damage classes but with the recoil penalty, that would be fair. But as it stands, druids and shammys don't have to rip themselves up to do "hybrid" damage...why do we?

Oh I don't know... my Ret Pally hasn't even been 80 all that long and certainly doesn't have the best gear in the world, but I usually do about 2.2k dps with command and about 2.5k dps with martyr, and that is with moderately bad gear. Of course that is in Naxx where there are a lot of undead. Something like Sarth where there are no undead, this drops somewhat of course.

No matter what my gear level on my Ret Pally, I cannot really envision keeping up with our best mage (who is around 5k dps in current 25-man content), but I already keep up with similarly geared Boomkins and Shaman, so I envision keeping up with them as we gear up. I don't think we are really meant to keep up with the "pure dps" classes though. I saw something recently about them bringing back the "2-bucket" concept where the DPS of hybrid classes was going to be lower than the DPS of the "pure" dps classes, although they were at least going to try to keep it close.

I also suspect that at least currently, a Ret Pally with close to BiS gear in every slot and using seal of Blood/Martyr probably does do 4k+ DPS in 25-mans, I just haven't seen a Ret Pally with gear that good yet in person.

Edited, Mar 30th 2009 2:30pm by jeromesimina

Right jerome, I agree, I have no trouble keeping up with the other hybrids. But I have to take a ton of backsplash damage to do it, and they have no comparable penalty.

i agree that SoB should be left alone. but you are in the era where Blizz needs to satisfy everyone. pallies will QQ long enough and the devs will "fix it".

i already recommended buffing SoR and doing away with SoB since SA is gone. pallies are the only class that have active and passive self-nerfing abilities(save Lifetap and Recklessness). my attacks kill me, my mana regen ruins my heals, my buffs lock out my defenses(vice versa).

my other toons dont act like this. hell, my mage can pew pew, ice block, pew pew, disappear, pew pew, ice block, pew pew. AND i can summon my pet twice while im on vacation.

Rated him back up, rated you down for being a D*ck. 8)

last i check, the rating system isnt here for you to impose your view/opinions on other people.

Edited, Mar 31st 2009 8:21am by RuenBahamut

you created what could have been a decent thread and turned it into a rating war? shame on you. your hatred for certain phrases is your own problem. rate yourself down. you probably dislike lack of conventional formatting too.

anywho, 24 pages is not "enlightening discussion". in the first post you will find:



making extra effort to ensure they do not elicit the response of a blue is counterintuitive to their ends. all this speculation and thinktanking is based off of knowledge of the PTR and daily blue posts. if you and the OPs do not care to regard the opinions and strategies of the Devs, then yes, it is just QQ.

a better PS would be:
"Please beg for Blue responses. Their information is invaluable and will only aid us in arriving at a reasonable balance. Afterall, we do not yet know where they intend to take the design of our class. All we have to work with is speculation and drawn conclusions based on the 'change of the day'."

QQ more . . .

absolutely correct... and even w/o the recoil, it's still not an upgrade to SoR.... i'd have a hard time seeing a holy paladin out questing using SoB/tM rather than SoR with his SP and 1h weapon... SoR and SoB/tM scale on completely different stats. they both have an AP component (SoR=%AP+%SP; SoB/tM=%weapon damage which is the damage ofthe weapon itself + 14% AP). However the second component to both of them is different. SoR scales on SP making it well suited to a holy paladins normal gearing. SoB/tM scales on the dps of your weapon making it well suited to a ret pally carrying the highest dps weapon he can find. the higher AP scaling of SoB/tM also makes it more suited to a ret pallies gear than a holy pallies gear. SoR is not really meant to be a dps seal anymore (imo) whereas SoB/tM is intended to be a competitive dps seal. Even a prot pally is likely to find better scaling in SoV/Cor than SoB/tM. I could do the math to figure it out but my point is less what gear lvl you need for one to be better and more that they scale different.... i.e. they're both useful tools under different circumstances....

Now i would agree that the comparison of SoB/tM to SoC is a totally different issue since SoB/tM is baseline and the best DPS seal for a ret pally while SoC is talented and subpar for competitive pve dps. i personally think if they were to buff a seal to replace SoB/tM it should be SoC rather than SoR since SoR isn't really a good ret seal in the first place. On the other hand, if Blizzard isn't going to consolidate SoB/tM with another seal it should retain some sort of downside or else they should get rid of SoC. it would be rediculous for SoB/tM to lose it's recoil and completely overshadow a talented seal in 100% of situations for a pally who puts the most points into the tree that talent is in... could they reduce the recoil? maybe. making it a straight 10% recoil accross the board would at least make us think twice before using it on fights like loatheb where too much AP means you're taking massive damage back with very limited oppotunities for healing. 10% would not overly tax healers however on those fights in ulduar where we will once again be learning fights and likely pushing ourselves to the limit just to kill a boss (i hope...).

oh, and goggy... i'd have to agree that rating someone down for using "QQ" is somewhat petty. there is likely many people with valid opinions maybe even valid complaints on that thread... however, since the recoil on the seal is not keeping ret pallies from raids (ret pallies are still very popular because of our buffs and very competitive dps). i have a ret pally and a healing pally... i have never had a healer complain about my 3k self hits from my JotM. the nearly 600 healing done by my JoL to everyone around me more than makes up for a 3k hit to myself ever 8 seconds.... as healer i've hardly even notice that i have to heal our other ret pally more often than anyone else... only time i notice is if i decide to watch his health and see how much of a problem it is... to be honest, even then i hardly notice it even then... so yeah... i agree with tommyguns and lansdowne that any complaints about the recoil of SoB/tM, as well meaning and intelligent as it may sound, is hardly warranted and mostly likely QQ as tommyguns called it...

in the end, i highly advocate a little thought about how horrible a spell may or may not really be before calling others "pillock"...

an example (somewhat close, but random numbers).... judgement hits for 10k... hits me back for 3.3k... on that hit my JoL heals me for 600... my next divine storm hits the single boss for 3k... heals me for 3k*.25*.333=250... melee swing causes JoL to heal me for another 600.... second melee swing causes JoL to heal me for another 600... judgement comes off cooldown again... during the cooldown of one judgement heals that i brought to the raid heal me for aprx 2k leaving the healers responsible for the other 1.3k if there's no feral druid nearby... to be honest 1.3k healing every 8 seconds is um, pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. admittedly the 10% seal recoil might bring that number up to a total of almost 2k healing... still insignificant over an 8 second period of time... a 3.3k hit is hardly even something i'm going to give an immediate attention to for an FoL unless i really have nothing else to do in which case it's even less of a problem.

oh yeah... and my example is based on current judgements... the damage will be even more insignificant when judgements are hitting for 30% less than they are now... wait... 30% of 3.3k = 990... so take that 1.3k - 990 = 310 damage left to heal from the judgement itself... ouch, i pity the healer left with the difficult task of keeping that ret pally alive over the course of a long fight ;)

i agree on this position wholeheartedly. i made posts back in the day where i advocated more utility to make up for our lack of dps in pre-BC. however, this is LK. Blizzard put forth the notion that if you are a dps spec, you need to be putting out big numbers. if you bring utility to a raid then that is just bonus.

this concept of equality has lead to some serious problems in balancing, function, and general fun.

go here: http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/

add a Ret pally into the raid. play around with it with all the other specs and see if you can find another class that comes close to the raid benefit of a Ret. i estimated to my guild leader that the raid loses about 7-8% 'tangible dmg' when we dont have a Ret pally(not including the personal dps).

other dps classes bring some buffs and debuffs with them, but none as encompassing as a Ret pally. so how do you justify that a rogue should do 5-10% more personal dmg, when a Ret brings his own dps plus 8% more raid dmg. doesn't seem fair to the rogue. the one thing to note is that bringing more rogues evens this out since only 1 Ret pally is ideal for a raid.

OT please.