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PTR Notes, Swipe Part IIFollow

#1 Mar 13 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Druids

* Abolish Poison: Now ticks every 3 seconds, up from every 2. Now lasts 12 seconds, up from 8.
* Faerie Fire and Faerie Fire (Feral): Now decreases armor of your target by 5%. Has a 5-minute duration,
and a 40-second PvP duration.
* Feral Faerie Fire: The damage generated by this ability in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form has been increased
substantially.
* Innervate: This spell no longer costs mana.
* Lifebloom: Mana cost of all ranks doubled. When Lifebloom blooms or is dispelled, it now refunds half the
base mana cost of the spell per application of Lifebloom, and the heal effect is multiplied by the
number of applications.
* Maim: This ability is now considered a stun, and shares a diminish category with all other stuns. It no
longer has a chance to break from the target taking damage. Duration lowered to 1 second per combo point.
* Pounce: No longer affected by diminishing returns with other stuns, however, it now shares a diminishing
return with Cheap Shot (Rogue).
* Savage Defense: Trainable at level 40 with Dire Bear Form as a prerequisite. When the Druid deals a
melee critical strike, they gain a physical damage shield equal to 25% of their attack power. The
next hit completely consumes the shield, regardless of how much damage was done. Only active in Bear Form.
* Starfall: Cooldown reduced to 90 seconds.
* Swipe: The Bear Form and Dire Bear Form version of this ability no longer has a targeting requirement
and hits targets behind the druid and to the sides.

* Talents
o Balance
+ Celestial Focus redesigned: Reduces the pushback suffered from damaging attacks while
casting Starfire, Hibernate and Hurricane by 23/46/70% and increases your total spell haste by 1/2/3%.
+ Eclipse: The benefit to Wrath triggered by casting Starfire has been increased to 30% bonus damage.
+ Insect Swarm: The bonus damage from spellpower on this damage-over-time ability has been increased
significantly to match similar spells on other classes.
+ Mark of the Wild and Gift of the Wild can now be cast while in Moonkin form.
+ Nature's Grace redesigned: All spell critical strikes have a 33/66/100% chance to grace you with
a Blessing of Nature, increasing your spell casting speed by 20% for 3 seconds.
+ Owlkin Frenzy is now properly considered an Enrage effect. Now also does not trigger from spell
hits, only physical ranged and melee attacks.
o Feral
+ Heart of the Wild: Stamina bonus changed to 2/4/6/8/10%.
+ Predatory Strikes: This talent no longer works when in Moonkin form.
+ New Talent: Primal Gore: Grants the periodic damage from your Rake, Lacerate and Rip abilities
the ability to critically hit.
+ Savage Roar is now considered an Enrage effect and now increases physical damage done by 30%
instead of increasing attack power.
+ Survival of the Fittest: Bonus armor reduced to 11/22/33% instead of 22/44/66%.
o Restoration
+ Living Seed: This talent now accounts for total healing including overhealing.
+ Improved Mark of the Wild: Now also increases all of your total attributes by 1/2%.
+ Intensity: Now grants 17/33/50% of mana regeneration while casting.
+ New Talent: Improved Barkskin: Increases the damage reduction granted by your Barkskin
spell by 5/10%, and increases your resistance to Dispel mechanics by an additional 30/60%
while under the effect of Barkskin.
+ Improved Regrowth: This talent is renamed Nature’s Bounty. Increases the critical effect
chance of your Regrowth and Nourish spells by 5/10/15/20/25%.
+ Replenish: This talent is now re-named Revitalize and also works with Wild Growth.
+ Tree of Life: Now receives 240% increased armor. You can now use Nature's Grasp and Thorns
while within this form. Mana cost reduced to match the cost of Travel Form.


Discuss.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 7:40pm by Horsemouth
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#2 Mar 13 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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id ditch the /pre formatting cause its extending it beyond the size of the post, and ive got a widescreen monitor set at a very high resolution.

more to the point, im /sadface. they just made druid aoe tanking almost as easy mode as pally aoe tanking. so much for being able to tell a skilled feral tank from a clueless/stupid one.
#3 Mar 13 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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7,732 posts
Fixed the formatting.

I like the no target thing with swipe. I agree about the 360 requirement. Makes it to easy and 1 button spammy.

They might take that away or put a CD on Swipe now as it could get ridiculous. We are now strong AoE tanks and strong single target tanks.

Something else will change I think. To much buffage is bad as the nerfs that come after are stronger.

The 360 + no target may prove to be excessive.
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#4 Mar 13 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Fat lot of good it'll do though if druid tanking is nerfed six feet under, as some seem to say it will be.
#5 Mar 13 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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AoE tanking for every other class was already almost skill free, I suppose there shouldn't be any suprise that bears joined them. Sure there wasn't much issue with AoE tanking as long as the player behind the keyboard was skilled. But I guess people figured it was just safer to go with the other classes since if it turned out the tank was slightly brain damaged, at least they could faceroll the keyboard and still do a decent job.

however, a couple other changes I do like however:

Quote:
Innervate: This spell no longer costs mana.


I don't know how many times I needed more mana but had to wait until I regened enough to cast innervate

Quote:
Pounce: No longer affected by diminishing returns with other stuns, however, it now shares a diminishing return with Cheap Shot (Rogue).


I was worried that pounce and maim would now share diminishing returns, good to see that pounce > maim openings will still be worth using.


Edited, Mar 13th 2009 6:46pm by SirJac
#6 Mar 13 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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1,270 posts
Quote:
* Swipe: The Bear Form and Dire Bear Form version of this ability no longer has a targeting requirement
and hits targets behind the druid and to the sides.


Awww. I don't mind the removal of the targeting requirement. ..but I liked the cone of swipe threat. It showed that you were just that much more aware of your surrounding and skilled as a tank wiggling mobs into position. :<

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 9:54pm by GryphonStalker
#7 Mar 13 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
I agree about swipe. I think removing the targeting was great; that wasn't ever a matter of skill, just annoyance. It was almost like nitpicking to make you keep one target in melee range. However, a 360 degree swipe makes me wonder if they are listening to us at all. Almost all druids, who's posts I've read seem to agree that becoming more like other tanks would be the worst thing that could happen to us. Yet, blizzard seems to be ignoring that and makeing continuous progress toward makeing us just like warriors. They've lowered our armor and health so that it is more in line with warriors, gave us block, and a 360 degree AOE. I'm ok with nerfs, but if I wanted to play a warrior...


Also, blizzard nerfed druid tanks because their defenses were above other tanks. Now they have given them a defense mechanic based on Attack power and crit, 360 degree spammable aoe, even more infinite rage generation, and critable lacerate. And bear dps was pretty powerful already. I guess my point is, wouldn't it be easier on blizzard to be a little less crazy with the buffs then to nerf the hell out of bears the patch after. I mean, at this rate, i give 1 day after the patch goes live, before we get the Nerf druid dps rants on the war forum. Am I over reacting about this? Is the dps nerfs bears seem destined to face the next patch after 3.1 not really as certain as I think it is?
#8 Mar 13 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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I can now talent for owlkin frenzy, massive pvp buff.

I like the change on Living Seed, makes it tons more beneficial.

The Revitalize change is good too, seeing as no one seems to take the talent.

Swipe change... Wow. I might have to take a stab at tanking. After my try as a dk, I think being a bear will suit me a ton better.

It seems like blizzard is pushing feral to be such more rogueish, (forgive the suffix) instead of poisons it's bleeds. I'm looking forward though to seeing how their dps begins to increase, and scale for that matter.

My biggest concern though. Moonkin dps has leveled off once you reach a certain gear level and you sit at a certain spot. I understand we're a hybrid class but I'd like to see my dps be on par with other hybrid classes. Such as paladins or shamans who I have seen frequently top dps charts. Of course feral dps has been buffed considerably to combat this, I'm just fearing that boomkins will drop off the charts and eventually fall back into the "Bring them because of the buff" department.
#9 Mar 13 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Decent
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ArexLovesPie wrote:
I can now talent for owlkin frenzy, massive pvp buff.


Mind if I ask what you're changing?
#10 Mar 13 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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As a cat, I love this change. Nothing makes me want to bash a head in more than mobs moving all over the place when I'm trying to stay behind them to Shred.

ArexLovesPie wrote:
It seems like blizzard is pushing feral to be such more rogueish, (forgive the suffix) instead of poisons it's bleeds. I'm looking forward though to seeing how their dps begins to increase, and scale for that matter.


I really think that somewhere we're going to have been buffed a little too much, and they'll have to tone it back. As we scale up, simple mistakes in keeping DoTs is going to cost more DPS than it does currently, but everything just seems too good right now.

Edited, Mar 14th 2009 2:44am by CBD
#11 Mar 14 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Micros, I'll probably just drop out of imp IS completely and go for 3/3 OF.

I'll have to mess around with it for a bit.
#12 Mar 14 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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861 posts
Why don't they just replace Swipe with an ability like, say, feral aggro -- causes all mobs the player wants to attack him to attack him indefinitely until killed.

I mean, what will tanking involve nowadays? Pull w fff. Stand still. Swipe swipe swipe. Move on.
#13 Mar 15 2009 at 2:38 AM Rating: Good
To be fair, there's still incentive to push all mobs in front of you when AoE tanking because you can't dodge attacks from behind.

It'll be nice for keeping things in check so you don't pull the pack out of the Blizzard/Hellfire/Hurricane area just to try and keep aggro though.
#14 Mar 15 2009 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
It's still important to keep in mind that Swipe comes at the cost of a yellow attack. In order for it to be anywhere close to on par with a Consecrate (for example) it would have to apply a bleed and that bleed would have to produce threat that takes into account bonus threat modifiers for dire bear form. I'm not saying this to put down druid threat under any circumstance, but to set aside the notion that a 360 degree swipe will make druids OP in any way, shape, or form. It simply means that if something goes sideways off the pull or you get those crazy mobs that like to dance around behind you/off to the side you're not losing precious seconds worth of threat generation while you get everything repositioned.

Druids can't afford to be dumping all of their GCDs into AoE threat. I don't care how many success stories you might have heard from drunken droods who would have you believe that swipe spam + maul + white attacks have them anywhere near on par with a prot pally in terms of AoE or single target threat, it's simply not the case. 3-4k single target threat is not impressive in WotLK. It's adequate. And 3-4k threat is an awfully ambitious goal if all they're doing is spamming Swipe. If they're working a Swipe/Mangle rotation, they'll be doing fairly well for single target threat on a main target for any melee dps you have and hold the rest through heals and a reasonable amount of AoE, but that in of itself is going to drop your AoE threat below what you'd expect to see from a pally or DK. Swipe + Mangle + Maul and you're going to be hurting for rage in a lot of situations.

360 degree swipe isn't going to represent a huge boost to druid threat. It's just going to make stragglers and strays a little easier to control, and a bit of a boost to druid tanking was warranted with the proposed reduction in bear health pools.
#15 Mar 15 2009 at 11:32 PM Rating: Good
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I wonder if swipe will break CC with this change. I liked the ability to swipe tank with my back to the sheep and not break it :/
#16 Mar 16 2009 at 3:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
And 3-4k threat is an awfully ambitious goal if all they're doing is spamming Swipe and a bad tank.


FTFY

I watch tv and pull 3k with swipe + maul. It isn't that hard.

Yes, AoE vs a pally I will lose. But do I care, no. It is called trash for a reason.

Quote:
Druids can't afford to be dumping all of their GCDs into AoE threat.


Swipe is actually a huge rage generator. If I am low on rage and a pally has all the mobs I will Swipe to gain rage. Hell, as of now if a bear breaks roughly 6k AP they should Swipe over Lacerate to generate threat after the Lacerate stack is up.

Quote:
360 degree swipe isn't going to represent a huge boost to druid threat.


True, it will let bad druid tanks be able to do more though. Competent druids will get bored and drink more.
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#17 Mar 16 2009 at 5:01 AM Rating: Good
Horsemouth wrote:
Quote:
And 3-4k threat is an awfully ambitious goal if all they're doing is spamming Swipe and a bad tank.


FTFY

I watch tv and pull 3k with swipe + maul. It isn't that hard.

Yes, AoE vs a pally I will lose. But do I care, no. It is called trash for a reason.

Quote:
Druids can't afford to be dumping all of their GCDs into AoE threat.


Swipe is actually a huge rage generator. If I am low on rage and a pally has all the mobs I will Swipe to gain rage. Hell, as of now if a bear breaks roughly 6k AP they should Swipe over Lacerate to generate threat after the Lacerate stack is up.

Quote:
360 degree swipe isn't going to represent a huge boost to druid threat.


True, it will let bad druid tanks be able to do more though. Competent druids will get bored and drink more.


I'm not seeing the downside here. Smiley: boozing
#18 Mar 16 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
Horsemouth wrote:
Quote:
And 3-4k threat is an awfully ambitious goal if all they're doing is spamming Swipe and a bad tank.


FTFY

I watch tv and pull 3k with swipe + maul. It isn't that hard.


Point is, 3-4k tps is only good for groups where none of your dps know wtf they're doing. In a decent group with dps who have a clue, you'll be needing to do more than just swipe spam + maul or you'll end up being labeled "that tank". Nobody ever wants to be "that tank". "That tank" is the tank everyone whispers one another kvetching that they have to wait forever to start the dps and once it's started, they can only go for so long before they have to slow way down because their threat dumps (if applicable) are on cooldown and they're already riding the line. DPS warriors and DK hate "that tank" because unless they're a night elf, they have no innate threat dump. They also hate "that tank" because in mostly Naxx10 gear they can be pumping out over 4k dps with a 10% threat threshold and nothing to do but hold off on their rotation when they get close to going over.

In a group with dps who have a clue, you're likely to find yourself trying to hold a pack through AoE and try to contain a single target through heavy dps and in those cases, swipe spam + maul will have to be changed out for something that resembles a rotation that was applied by a druid who had as much of a clue as their dps.

That's what I mean when I say that druids can't afford to be blowing all of their GCDs on swipe spam. I'm not talking about rage...I'm talking about lost threat on a main target in an environment where 3k tps is going to get you a /w from a raid leader telling you to pick it up or gtfo. That's what I mean when I say 3-4k tps isn't impressive...it's adequate...and only barely so unless a druid were to find themselves consistently surrounded by underachievers in raids. My first couple of weeks in Naxx had me trying to contain threat through a warrior doing 4400 dps in quest blues and early Naxx gear. Had he stuck around and geared up he would have been an absolute beast to tank for.

5-7k tps is the minimum standard for 'quality' raid tanks these days. It doesn't take much to realize that 360 degree swipe spam isn't going to push bears any closer to that goal, ergo the claim that any druid who might in any way, shape, or form feel that 360 swipe spam will make them OP can breathe easy. Full circle swipe is a convenience, not a significant performance boost.


Edited, Mar 16th 2009 7:50am by AureliusSir
#19 Mar 16 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not too sure we're still talking about AoE threat or single target here.

3-4k TPS or so is sufficient on AoE pulls (a.k.a. trash). DPS don't need to blow off their CD's on trash. Sure, it'd speed up the run, but part of the DPS's job is to not go overboard after all. (I don't think 3-4k TPS is very limiting, either)

If we're talking about holding a group that must be killed in X, Y, Z order, then I'd take it for granted that the Druid will perform a basic rotation on the primary target before beginning to swipe. (Mangle + 1x Lacerate on main target) Then you just keep the main target targeted to make sure every Maul hits him.

Now if we're talking single-target threat, I really hope no tank tries to spam Swipe to keep aggro, and I hope even more that the patch will not encourage that behavior either. With a really simple rotation it's easy to do 5-6k TPS.
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