A couple of mage questionsFollow

Cold Snap is only useful if your busting out your Frost Cooldowns. One of the biggest ones for you is probably going to be using Cold Snap to reset Icy Veins so you can essentially extend the duration of your Icy Veins. 2 other great uses for Coldsnap are, as you said, Ice Block and Water Elemental. In the most perfect of worlds you can knock out all 3 CDs with 1 Cold Snap, but the only time this would really be necessary is PVP or some crazy Group Emergency situation.

Since, in PVE, you really wont encounter these kinds of situations, I suggest you just blow Icy Veins whenever you're doing an already notable amount of damage. Whenever you're going to Blizzard, for instance, it is a great idea to pop Icy Veins before hand. CS can be used to reset that whenever it'll help your damage - seeing as you wont find yourself in any real emergencies excluding random world PVP.

Once you get into 80 PVP you'll find Cold Snap to be a necessity and a powerful tool for controlling when and how you strike. It can also help the raid with the Water Elemental.

Thanks for the rapid answers, so if I got it correctly then
A) I Need to start using Ice Veins a lot more and (at least for now) mainly use Cold Snap to reset Icy Veins
and B) Amplify magic is pretty much only used on raid bosses/mobs that deal no magic damage.

That helps out a bunch, I'm going to de-hotkey Amplify/Dampen Magic in this case. Would any of you consider it a good idea if I macro'd in Icy Veins to for example Pyroblast and use it more like a trinket?

Leaves Combustion.

Alright, fair enough. So for PvE, macroing Icy Veins to my fireball (I'm 52, and I'm some kind of weird elementalist 0/22/21 spec) is a good idea I guess?

Combustion now makes a lot more sense to me; I guess it's comparable to Cold Blood or Blade Flurry... I wasn't able to really picture the spell before.

Once again, thanks for all the (rapid) answers!

Just a suggestion - but I thought I'd throw it your way.

Learning to use an Elementalist talent build may give you a bit of foresight into how to play FFB once you hit 75 (really 80), but in all honesty until you get the Frostfire Bolt spell itself the spec is missing out on some huge tools.

First off, I would say the biggest thing to learn for a FFB Mage is how and when to stack Ignites, Hot Streaks, and Living bombs. You're not getting any of that practice. Learning to respond to Hot Streaks - as trivial as it is - is quite possibly the most important aspect of a Frostfire Mage. Truth is, you have enough points to get Hotstreak.

Ignoring the fact that you would have these early learning experiences, going deep into either Frost or Fire will get you some VERY cool and intricate tools. As frost, you could have your Elemental already as well as be set with your Ice Barrier, and you could be learning how to use Brain Freeze. In Fire you could have your Dragons Breath, Blast Wave, Firestarter, and Hot Streak.

These high-end talents, at your stage in the game, offer a greater net benefit than the Stat% chances and the haste bonuses that you get with an Elementalist spec. Also keep in mind that at 60 Arcane becomes a very viable PVE and PVP spec that, with minor tweaks, fits almost immediately into Raid-PVE and Arenas. If you wish to stick with Fire you'll find yourself familiar with FFB spec (Viable immediately at 80) or the Arcane/Fire (which requires some good gear.) Unfortunately, for now, Frost leads nowhere in the realm of Raid-PVE. Apparently they're trying to change that.

So if you're open to try out a tree deeper, I think you'll find yourself in love with some of the toys in either tree... they are immense fun!

That's where you're wrong. Frost isn't made to do damage in Raids. Soloing, frost has an amazing potential for massive damage. In 5 mans, its damage is easily at par. It only flounders when you get into longer fights, but not because it's weak. No, that's because what makes fire truly strong is only truly effective when fights last long. Ignite is a rather weak soloing talent because it takes time to do its damage, whereas frost crits do their damage up front. But more importantly, as a solo frost mage, your crits will come often, giving you potential that fire really doesn't have. This doesn't truly come into play until somewhere in the 30s or 40s, so early experimentation with it may have missed it.

But frost isn't a low damage spec. It just does its damage in a way that reaches full strength early, whereas fire and arcane can scale more as a fight gets longer.

You're probably right, but (aside from base damage) I'm thinking more in the direction of the 'grand scheme of things' here - At least to me, fire has always been about destruction while frost has always been utility. Regardless of what game I was playing, if I had the option to choose between frost and fire for damage I'd always go for fire; dealing damage with frost just feels like eating soup with a fork.



I realize that you're probably right on that since trispecs usually aren't viable. But that's what I meant last post; it's a pet peeve of mine. I also have a druid with a feral/resto spec, purely because I want to see if I can get one spec that's good enough to both tank and heal a heroic (not at the same time though, I'm not thát crazy). If I eventually end up having to face the fact that it's not going to work (on either my druid or mage) then so be it, but until then I'm thoroughly enjoying myself with something original, new and refreshing.



Actually, funnily enough, my AoE 'rotation' currently is Frost Nova followed by Flame Strike+Blast Wave. My entire spec is based around getting shatter crits on high damage fire spells. That does sound a bit silly when you think of it *grins*



I do realize that, though I don't think anybody can deny that fire simply has less control than frost and frost's damage generally isn't as high as fire. I'm at 53 now and definitely still pulling the DPS; I'm ending up on top on every group I join in both DPS and damage done. While I realize I'm PUGging with low level people here, that's got to say *something*. My predictions are that I'll be able to keep up and compete this way until at least 70. At that point, I'll take another look at what happens.

Thanks for the feedback though, hope nobody feels offended; the reason I never bring these ideas up is because people tend to tell me my specs suck, I tell them to sod off and it gets an unhappy situation altogether anyway.

Frost's Main Control is Snare and Frost Nova. Both Talents can be used by all trees. Yes you can increase the snare amount and you can add extra Frost Novas with talents, but unless you're litterally needing Frost Novas every 2 seconds you can survive with only one FN. Ontop of this, Blazing Speed, Fiery Payback and Blastwave allow extra control for Fire. The ability to Slow as Arcane gives even more control than anything else for general grinding and PVP.

Fire's damage is hugely due to critical hits and their higher +damage% when crits do occur. A Huge portion of this damage, though, is dealt over time through Ignite. Without ignite Fire does no better DPS than any other spec. Ontop of this by dipping into Arcane for TTW and +damage effects or into frost for Icy Veins and hit% you can increase damage of fire even further. Beside this fact, Frost can consistantly outdps Fire on non-bosses until 80. Arcane can compete. Relying on Ignite is a bad idea unless you're talking about targets that last for more than a few minutes.

The fact that you leave Arcane out of the discussion in general brings even further question into the rationalization you use. The fact is, Arcane is only outperformed by Arcane+Fire by about a % of damage done even on boss fights with perfect gearsets. So the arguement that Fire is the end-all-be-all DPS spec is quite incorrect.

Try for fun Poldaran...

Get a Mage in the 30s Level Range. Without attention to DPS, track the rate of kills per hour and the exp per hour that goes with it up against its Frost and Fire counterparts. While significantly limited in most types of emergency situations, Arcane keeps up surprisingly well with its counterparts on straight grinding.

Arcane Missile spamming through hits and then using the time taken to Drink to also Eat back any lost HP resulted in "tanking" the the monsters you were engaging works surprisingly well up until the 60s. Surprise, surprise! At 60 the Slow and Arcane Barrage Abilities are readily available to bring on a whole new level of kiting into Arcane that wasn't even hinted at just 10 levels earlier.

This whole "arcane doesn't work for leveling" stigma has gone on for quite a while - all the time not being remotely true.

You may not like the boring play style, but it beats the hell out of wasting mana with frost kiting stuff around and the sporadic damage of fire... I know you'll knock me for it but I know right now you haven't tried it.


That point aside - I don't see why my post was down rated.

Arcane and Fire DO have control. Being able to move faster and being able to slow the monsters are essentially the same thing. Bring in Daze effects of Dragon's breath, the stuns from Impact, the throw from Blast Wave and the instant cast granted by Fiery Payback all, in my book, count as control. So you have to take a hit or at least be in melee range for these effects. Well guess what - burning soul does a nice job at allowing DPS through melee attacks. Arcane's ability to do *top* dps while under an *infinite* amount of melee swings brings its control to a playing field of any kiting Mage who is wasting mana trying to keep out of melee range. And when frost does get cornered they have no Cast-Through to speak of... so how is this one-option-down from the other 2 trees equate to control?

Frost has the ability to use Mana to guard HP. Arcane has the ability to trade either for either. Explain how this is not control.

If you are truly THAT set on never having your Health Pool touched, that's your purgative... its by NO means essential to the play style of the Mage class. You're giving Summon Food for a reason IMHO - I just use all the tools that are given to me.

Even now, at 80 doing dailies on level 78-80 monsters, I go through 20+ monsters at a time before needing a break. Believe me, my measly 15,000hp pool gets a workout - but I'm not even phased until I'm below 10%hp... and the only reason that is true is because I'm on a PVP server and I'm now free game for some wannabe gankmaster.

I don't know, I have never tried Arcane. I have often thought about it, but never any follow through. I tried frost in my 60's in Hellfire and I hated it. It was like I wasn't myself when I played it and it felt all wrong. I enjoy kiting as fire,but most of the time it's him or me so I go all out and ride a few CD's when they come up. I did the Demon Orb elite like that. During Northrend, I used to solo certain group quests, but later on I found that most of the smaller group quests could be solo'd by most classes.

For the record, I never rate anyone down unless they personally attack me.

Not you too Poldy! =( He isn't 'complaining', he simply said he didn't see why he was rated down and that's a very fair point. If you downrate somebody without giving your reasons you're being a Richard anyway - it's the same as slapping somebody in the face and then running off. I loathe the karmaphobia on these boards. People need to learn that there's a difference between 'whining about' and trying to have a decent discussion. If somebody thinks I deserve being downrated and indeed plans on downrating me, let him come up to me first; I'd gladly rather discuss the matter at hand. Nine out of ten times they are assuming something about me or my post which can be easily countered anyway.

That said, let me flip back to the discussion at hand. I'm just curious if any of you has levelled as a mage since the damage buff patch, since I'm getting the feeling that (even though I'm the rookie here) I am the only one with that experience. I'm thinking it's quite similar to how priests currently work - whatever spec you go, your damage is so high you're 3 or 4 shotting mobs of your own level anyway. As it is right now, a Frost Nova followed by a Pyroblast and Fireblast is 90% of the time enough to take down any mob of equal level. I tend to fight mobs 2-3 levels above my own and they generally need ~5 casts to die. When I levelled my priests (~1 and ~4 years ago) I needed 5 casts to kil stuff my own level.

Also, I'm not sure what people mean when they say that "Ignite takes time to work"? The damage it deals is dealt over 4 seconds; to be honest, the duration is perfect for me while soloing. The debuff always ends before the mob dies (or the last tick kills it) and I rarely find myself overwriting Ignites with new crits. I do have to mention that when I'm not making Shatter combo's I'm on only about 9% fire crit and I don't have combustion - but still.

Mozared, let me clarify my stance on Ignite and fire for leveling. When you get a solid Fireball crit with a deep Fire build, you've essentially knocked a huge portion of their health out with 1 cast and the DoTs that follow.

The problem is that crits happen at different parts of the battle - a pretty obvious but notable fact about crits. When you're talking about killing monsters in 3-4 hits and your throwing random crits in there a large portion of that extra damage goes to waste. This is WHY Arcane IS viable, and why Frost's approach at more crits for lower numbers can be more useful than Fire's random big hits. These 2 trees have more wield over their damage, even at lower levels, in order to not waste damage and mana on overkills.

In a perfect World for Fire, you'd start every fight with your crit and finish it off with a low damage spell. This doesn't happen - it can't. How often do your crits land on monsters that only need a regular hit (or even less) to finish and you've literally just over damaged the monster by a huge %.

While this seems like a frivolous and almost unfair thing to pick apart about the Fire Tree - it really isn't a problem with the other 2. Frost takes an approach at critting for lower numbers, but much more frequently. This means when you overkill a monster the fact that you wasted a crit becomes much less of a hit on your grind. Arcane sits around 9% crit until you really start getting gear and almost forgoes the idea at all while leveling - aiming for pure controlled and predictable damage.

Fact is, all three work. My Vanilla Mage leveled from 20-something on to 60 Arcane, only respecing after hitting 60. My TBC Mage leveled Fire until Hellfire and switched to Arcane because of the resist issues - never looking back. My last Mage I leveled Fire until 35ish, then went to Arcane. Switched to Frost at 58 for Hellfire and then switched back to Arcane around 65 for the Barrage and Slow because 3.0 had come out. I changed to FFB for Wrath Raiding, but was delighted when Arcane was once again given a shot at PVE content.