Paladin (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)
* Auras will now persist through death. Ok, but it never cost anything to really put them up again anyway - I PVE - so this really only helps if I die as a tank and get a B.Rez... Thoughts?
* Blessing of Kings is now trainable at level 20. Removed from talent trees. AWESOME
Talents
Protection
* New Talent Divinity:Tier 1 protection talent, increases healing done by and to you by 1/2/3/4/5%. Wait - So this increases the amount I am healed AND makes me a better AOE Solo Tank! Does it work on Blessing/Judging Light as well as inbound/outbound Healing spells?
* Sacred Duty (Protection) rank 1 now increases Stamina by 4%. AWESOME
Retribution Not Ret - No comments
* Benediction (Retribution) now affects Hand of Reckoning.
* Fanaticism reduced to 3 ranks for 6/12/18% bonus and 10/20/30% threat reduction.
* Repentance no longer resets the Paladin's melee swing timer.
* Righteous Vengeance reduced to 3 ranks for 10/20/30%.
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Patch - Notes + CommentsFollow
Was thinking about posting this myself, just hadn't got around to it. Been looking at other stuff :)
Just a few comments regarding the official patch notes:
- Auras: no, it doesn't cost anything to put this up, but I think that's kinda the point as to why they've finally made this change. Remember when Find Minerals and like "spells" needed to be reactivated upon rezzing? They don't cost anything either, but it was very annoying (depending of frequency of death of course) to need to reapply these. I know I would quite often forget to put them back up. Same thing with Auras: it's sadly quite often that a Paladin I happen to run with (occasionally even myself ...) will forget to reactivate an Aura after dieing. This would eliminate that issue.
- Blessing of Kings: As I said in a previous post, about damn time :D Says "removed from talent trees", so that can put to rest people's fears that it would be 2% with an Improved talent still in place.
- NEW TALENT [Divinity]: Not sure what you mean by being a better solo tank. It doesn't increase the damage we'll do in any way, just the healing we give out and receive from others. If you were just saying that while soloing we'll be able to keep ourselves alive better, then sorry I misunderstood you :) But really, do we have issues with that now? hehe. As for whether it affects Seal/Judgement of Light, I don't know. Guess that's something people will be needing to test on the PTR!
It is a nice talent for sure. I guess I was kind of hoping for something not so, well, boring. But what can you honestly expect for a tier 1 talent? ;)
- Ret stuff: Benediction and Repentance changes are nice, but the others are a bit of a nerf. Although how much it'll hurt or whether it was necessary, I can't comment on.
Judging from the look of your post, I'm guessing you basically copy/pasted from MMO-Champion? If so, did you see the other part of the post (the undocumented changes)? There's a warning if you will above the post Not to "jump to any conclusions", but I think a few of these changes in particular are worth mentioning anyway.
* Exorcism can now be used on all targets, but is now a guaranteed critical strike vs Undead and Demon type mobs. Was brought up before, but worth showing that at least for now this change is indeed going to be in 3.1
* Judgement of Light now procs off spells as well. (Previously only "attacks" would trigger this) I believe this would bring it inline with Judgement of Wisdom, right?
* Improved Concentration Aura's (Tier 4) reduced silence/interrupt effect now works while any aura is active. This change is also going in for Improved Devotion Aura, allowing the increased healing to be applied to the affected targets of any Aura the 'talented' Paladin is using. Along the same lines, Improved Retribution Aura is going bye bye and folded into the talent Sanctified Retribution.
* Shield of the Templar (Tier 10) no longer increases the damage of your Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield and Shield of Righteousness spells. Instead it gives your Avenger's Shield a 33/66/100% chance to silence targets hit by it for 3 sec. Yay, a silence! Doesn't look like it'll be affecting Shield of Righteousness as previously thought, but I think we all agreed that would have been pretty OP anyway ;) Would be easier to pull casters now, except the fact they will still be slowed: bah.
* Blessing of Sanctuary (Tier 5) now only grants 2% of maximum displayed mana when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack. (Previously granted 10 rage or 20 runic power or 2% max mana) Guess this talent/spell is losing some of its effectiveness for other classes, only giving mana now. I don't know why this change was made. Were Warrior/Druid/Death Knight tanks gaining too much of their respective resource so they didn't need this benefit? Or maybe it was to try and make Paladins feel more unique? I don't know, ideas? :)
There's more changes in there, but didn't really want to post/comment on them all. Already I feel like my post is "too long", so I apologize :)
And Borsuk, the color thing was a good idea, so I stole it =P
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 6:42am by Maulgak
Just a few comments regarding the official patch notes:
- Auras: no, it doesn't cost anything to put this up, but I think that's kinda the point as to why they've finally made this change. Remember when Find Minerals and like "spells" needed to be reactivated upon rezzing? They don't cost anything either, but it was very annoying (depending of frequency of death of course) to need to reapply these. I know I would quite often forget to put them back up. Same thing with Auras: it's sadly quite often that a Paladin I happen to run with (occasionally even myself ...) will forget to reactivate an Aura after dieing. This would eliminate that issue.
- Blessing of Kings: As I said in a previous post, about damn time :D Says "removed from talent trees", so that can put to rest people's fears that it would be 2% with an Improved talent still in place.
- NEW TALENT [Divinity]: Not sure what you mean by being a better solo tank. It doesn't increase the damage we'll do in any way, just the healing we give out and receive from others. If you were just saying that while soloing we'll be able to keep ourselves alive better, then sorry I misunderstood you :) But really, do we have issues with that now? hehe. As for whether it affects Seal/Judgement of Light, I don't know. Guess that's something people will be needing to test on the PTR!
It is a nice talent for sure. I guess I was kind of hoping for something not so, well, boring. But what can you honestly expect for a tier 1 talent? ;)
- Ret stuff: Benediction and Repentance changes are nice, but the others are a bit of a nerf. Although how much it'll hurt or whether it was necessary, I can't comment on.
Judging from the look of your post, I'm guessing you basically copy/pasted from MMO-Champion? If so, did you see the other part of the post (the undocumented changes)? There's a warning if you will above the post Not to "jump to any conclusions", but I think a few of these changes in particular are worth mentioning anyway.
* Exorcism can now be used on all targets, but is now a guaranteed critical strike vs Undead and Demon type mobs. Was brought up before, but worth showing that at least for now this change is indeed going to be in 3.1
* Judgement of Light now procs off spells as well. (Previously only "attacks" would trigger this) I believe this would bring it inline with Judgement of Wisdom, right?
* Improved Concentration Aura's (Tier 4) reduced silence/interrupt effect now works while any aura is active. This change is also going in for Improved Devotion Aura, allowing the increased healing to be applied to the affected targets of any Aura the 'talented' Paladin is using. Along the same lines, Improved Retribution Aura is going bye bye and folded into the talent Sanctified Retribution.
* Shield of the Templar (Tier 10) no longer increases the damage of your Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield and Shield of Righteousness spells. Instead it gives your Avenger's Shield a 33/66/100% chance to silence targets hit by it for 3 sec. Yay, a silence! Doesn't look like it'll be affecting Shield of Righteousness as previously thought, but I think we all agreed that would have been pretty OP anyway ;) Would be easier to pull casters now, except the fact they will still be slowed: bah.
* Blessing of Sanctuary (Tier 5) now only grants 2% of maximum displayed mana when the target blocks, parries, or dodges a melee attack. (Previously granted 10 rage or 20 runic power or 2% max mana) Guess this talent/spell is losing some of its effectiveness for other classes, only giving mana now. I don't know why this change was made. Were Warrior/Druid/Death Knight tanks gaining too much of their respective resource so they didn't need this benefit? Or maybe it was to try and make Paladins feel more unique? I don't know, ideas? :)
There's more changes in there, but didn't really want to post/comment on them all. Already I feel like my post is "too long", so I apologize :)
And Borsuk, the color thing was a good idea, so I stole it =P
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 6:42am by Maulgak
the op post comments on whats in ptr 3.1 only. The other changes are expected.intened, but not on the ptrs.
Divinity should also be useful for holy paladins dipping into prot. Overall I think it's a good replacement.
Benediction affecting Hand of Reckoning...meh.
Fanaticism/RV down to 3 ranks is a clear buff.
I don't see how the Repentance change matters. You're incapacitating the target, right? That means you're either going to switch targets or heal or something. Resetting the swing timer should never have been a problem.
BoK/Sacred Duty = awesome.
Benediction affecting Hand of Reckoning...meh.
Fanaticism/RV down to 3 ranks is a clear buff.
I don't see how the Repentance change matters. You're incapacitating the target, right? That means you're either going to switch targets or heal or something. Resetting the swing timer should never have been a problem.
BoK/Sacred Duty = awesome.
you can find all the info here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php
what a mess! most talents and glyphs are dramatically changed. playstyles will need to be modififed. OP classes get more OP. inc bugs!(and im not talking the AQ kind)
lemme talk about Ret for a sec. Ret was already a 'take everything' spec. they coulda just made a tier 1 talent called "Ret Spec" and make it a 61pt talent. now, what they did is condense this even further. they took out 1 talent and reduced the pts spent on 2 others. so now i get to take everything in Ret and have more pts left this time.
so we move into Prot. with Kings gone, i get 5pts free to spend. if i only PvE, i'll take Divinity and Strength...the rest will be garbage. but since i like to PvP, it will be Strength and then:
-Stoicism(i have my full Ret talents plus i eat stuns)
-Guardian's Favor(i'm a Ret bomb that cant be slowed)
-Righteous Fury(i take less dmg too)
-Tier3 wtf? 2pts Toughness? sure
-Divine Guardian(when i bubble, they move to my partner...but my partner is buffed too lol)
-imp HoJ(i r rogue)
so to recap, they nerfed my PvE output(aside from Exorcism) and buffed my PvP...i thought they intended it the other way. gg
worthy of a patch note? ok
dont be fooled, im assuming this is a bug workaround.
what a mess! most talents and glyphs are dramatically changed. playstyles will need to be modififed. OP classes get more OP. inc bugs!(and im not talking the AQ kind)
lemme talk about Ret for a sec. Ret was already a 'take everything' spec. they coulda just made a tier 1 talent called "Ret Spec" and make it a 61pt talent. now, what they did is condense this even further. they took out 1 talent and reduced the pts spent on 2 others. so now i get to take everything in Ret and have more pts left this time.
so we move into Prot. with Kings gone, i get 5pts free to spend. if i only PvE, i'll take Divinity and Strength...the rest will be garbage. but since i like to PvP, it will be Strength and then:
-Stoicism(i have my full Ret talents plus i eat stuns)
-Guardian's Favor(i'm a Ret bomb that cant be slowed)
-Righteous Fury(i take less dmg too)
-Tier3 wtf? 2pts Toughness? sure
-Divine Guardian(when i bubble, they move to my partner...but my partner is buffed too lol)
-imp HoJ(i r rogue)
so to recap, they nerfed my PvE output(aside from Exorcism) and buffed my PvP...i thought they intended it the other way. gg
Quote:
* Benediction (Retribution) now affects Hand of Reckoning.
worthy of a patch note? ok
Quote:
* Auras will now persist through death.
dont be fooled, im assuming this is a bug workaround.
Divinity is nice, but it means I still won't be able to finish getting all the crit talents in ret on my Holydin XD
Some of the new glyphs look promising, increasing the duration of Beacon of Light by 30 sec /drool
Some of the new glyphs look promising, increasing the duration of Beacon of Light by 30 sec /drool
Maulgak - Tsarducci answered the 'where did you get this' question.
It's from the Alla cover page - More changes are coming down the pipe, but I *think* these are the only testable changes ATM. I'm looking forward to the Exorcism change - for those of us not standing in specific wings of NAX, Drak, or CoS - the spell is exceptionally situational and rarely used. I like that I might be able to add it to my rotation - or particularly as another addition to my ranged "taunt-like" skill set. (However - I dont think that stuff is in the current batch of PTR updates.)
With respect to:
Ummm... My thoughts are that in groups this is an obvious gain and much of it doesn't need to be discussed. BUT - does this help with judge/seal Light. If so - From a group tanking perspective there are very few times that I'm in danger of losing agro (I'm still in Heroic content and just Starting 10 mans). I've been catching myself sealing for health a lot more as my tanking gear has progressed a whole lot, but I'm still running with a lot of PUGs and dealing with crap healers who need help. (Meaning - I'm causing tons of threat and blocking a lot, but the in-coming heals are sucking - anything I can do to help them...)
For example - I ran H.UK for some badges last night and did 17% of the healing with a Pug Paly healer and me tanking. (That means I'm tanking, pulling down good DPS, and healing the group for 1/6 of the total heals) IF You bump up my heals by 5%....
Plus - I started a Paly to AOE grind. I love rounding up as many mobs as I can before I break their leashes and just grinding them down. This WILL mean I can better heal myself, but if, again, it works on my Judge/Seal Procs - it will really make me tough to kill.
It's from the Alla cover page - More changes are coming down the pipe, but I *think* these are the only testable changes ATM. I'm looking forward to the Exorcism change - for those of us not standing in specific wings of NAX, Drak, or CoS - the spell is exceptionally situational and rarely used. I like that I might be able to add it to my rotation - or particularly as another addition to my ranged "taunt-like" skill set. (However - I dont think that stuff is in the current batch of PTR updates.)
With respect to:
Quote:
NEW TALENT [Divinity]: Not sure what you mean by being a better solo tank.
Ummm... My thoughts are that in groups this is an obvious gain and much of it doesn't need to be discussed. BUT - does this help with judge/seal Light. If so - From a group tanking perspective there are very few times that I'm in danger of losing agro (I'm still in Heroic content and just Starting 10 mans). I've been catching myself sealing for health a lot more as my tanking gear has progressed a whole lot, but I'm still running with a lot of PUGs and dealing with crap healers who need help. (Meaning - I'm causing tons of threat and blocking a lot, but the in-coming heals are sucking - anything I can do to help them...)
For example - I ran H.UK for some badges last night and did 17% of the healing with a Pug Paly healer and me tanking. (That means I'm tanking, pulling down good DPS, and healing the group for 1/6 of the total heals) IF You bump up my heals by 5%....
Plus - I started a Paly to AOE grind. I love rounding up as many mobs as I can before I break their leashes and just grinding them down. This WILL mean I can better heal myself, but if, again, it works on my Judge/Seal Procs - it will really make me tough to kill.
Basically the change to BoSanc kinda sucks in my opinion. I run in a lot of raids where we have 2 Prot Paladins and a Ret in our 10-mans.
Now the DKs and warriors are going to get what... Kings, Might, and ??? (WISDOM??? LOL)
Seems like a nerf to any raid group that has too many Paladins in it. Sure, there are classes that can benefit greatly from having Kings, Might, and Wisdom, but the Warriors and DKs may cry now:
Warrior: "Hey where's my third Pally Buff?"
Paladin #3: "Well, you want the one that returns mana when you block/parry/dodge or do you want Wisdom?"
Warrior: "... :( ... Nevermind..."
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 11:54am by jeromesimina
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 11:55am by jeromesimina
Now the DKs and warriors are going to get what... Kings, Might, and ??? (WISDOM??? LOL)
Seems like a nerf to any raid group that has too many Paladins in it. Sure, there are classes that can benefit greatly from having Kings, Might, and Wisdom, but the Warriors and DKs may cry now:
Warrior: "Hey where's my third Pally Buff?"
Paladin #3: "Well, you want the one that returns mana when you block/parry/dodge or do you want Wisdom?"
Warrior: "... :( ... Nevermind..."
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 11:54am by jeromesimina
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 11:55am by jeromesimina
They're also taking out Improved Ret Aura and fusing its effect into Sanctified Retribution.
Is it a buff? I will not claim to be a theorycrafter of any sort, but we're overall losing 7% chance for our Judgements to crit off Fanaticism, and 10% damage loss off Righteous Vengeance. Yeah, it will free up some points, but at this point it doesn't look like we have a whole lot of extra damage skills to put points into for PvE. (I strongly agree with tommy here, it seems like a big buff to Ret PvP, which I'm not really sure it needed, but I don't arena so I'm not what you would call an expert on that anyways.)
As for Repentance, it's good if you're on CC duty, which I know barely happens now, but it might in Ulduar. That way you can have your CC target on focus and attack your target, and when it breaks you can re-apply it with a focus target macro and not lose any damage since it will no longer reset your swing timer. That's how I see it. It's a minor thing that probably won't crop up that often but better to have it than not I suppose.
zepoodle wrote:
Fanaticism/RV down to 3 ranks is a clear buff.
I don't see how the Repentance change matters. You're incapacitating the target, right? That means you're either going to switch targets or heal or something. Resetting the swing timer should never have been a problem.
I don't see how the Repentance change matters. You're incapacitating the target, right? That means you're either going to switch targets or heal or something. Resetting the swing timer should never have been a problem.
Is it a buff? I will not claim to be a theorycrafter of any sort, but we're overall losing 7% chance for our Judgements to crit off Fanaticism, and 10% damage loss off Righteous Vengeance. Yeah, it will free up some points, but at this point it doesn't look like we have a whole lot of extra damage skills to put points into for PvE. (I strongly agree with tommy here, it seems like a big buff to Ret PvP, which I'm not really sure it needed, but I don't arena so I'm not what you would call an expert on that anyways.)
As for Repentance, it's good if you're on CC duty, which I know barely happens now, but it might in Ulduar. That way you can have your CC target on focus and attack your target, and when it breaks you can re-apply it with a focus target macro and not lose any damage since it will no longer reset your swing timer. That's how I see it. It's a minor thing that probably won't crop up that often but better to have it than not I suppose.
Scholar
32 posts
First, did you see the new B.S. tanking belt? Indestructible Plate Girdle 65STR/103STA/56DEF/40DOD/43HIT Plus 2 sockets. Very nice indeed!!!
RE: Glyphs
Nice changes.
Glyph of Exorcism - Not only do we get to use Exorcism on any target, the glyph increase damage of Exorcism by 20%. Not bad.
Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous - 1 additional target...yes please.
Glyph of Divine Plea - While Divine Plea is active, you take 3% reduced damage from all sources. Mana return plus damage reduction. Seems to be a very nice PVP tool, or used by RET's in PVE.
RE: Skills/Talents
Kings..I agree - Fantastic!
SotT silences, I agree. A nice silence indeed.
GbtL.. Nice changes as well.
Overall very nice changes for prot pally's. Increased STA, healing increase done to and by..I do like these as well. The Aura persisting, it's a nice addition. (I have, unfortunately, forgotten to select an Aura after an unfortunate wipe.)
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 12:42pm by dwarorc
RE: Glyphs
Nice changes.
Glyph of Exorcism - Not only do we get to use Exorcism on any target, the glyph increase damage of Exorcism by 20%. Not bad.
Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous - 1 additional target...yes please.
Glyph of Divine Plea - While Divine Plea is active, you take 3% reduced damage from all sources. Mana return plus damage reduction. Seems to be a very nice PVP tool, or used by RET's in PVE.
RE: Skills/Talents
Kings..I agree - Fantastic!
SotT silences, I agree. A nice silence indeed.
GbtL.. Nice changes as well.
Overall very nice changes for prot pally's. Increased STA, healing increase done to and by..I do like these as well. The Aura persisting, it's a nice addition. (I have, unfortunately, forgotten to select an Aura after an unfortunate wipe.)
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 12:42pm by dwarorc
Quote:
Glyph of Divine Plea - While Divine Plea is active, you take 3% reduced damage from all sources. Mana return plus damage reduction. Seems to be a MEH PVP tool, or used by PROT's in PVE
fixt.
Quote:
the new B.S. tanking belt?
LINK????
Scholar
32 posts
Lol. Sorry I was thinking in terms of heroics and raids referencing RET's. It is indeed nice for prots in PVE. However, I hardly ever use DP unless I am OTing or doing dailys. This may be because I need some better gear so that I am not taking as much damage, hence I receive alot of mana through the heals.
Scholar
32 posts
Quote:
Shield of Righteousness now deals 130% of block value + 520 at the highest rank. It no longer causes a high amount of threat. (Previously increased damage by a set amount)
Has me a little worried. My normal hits with this produce about 10k threat, when I crit it is more like 15k threat. I realize that pallys have a lot of other tools for threat generation but this was a big one. Am I wrong to be a little miffed about this?
For Holy Pallies Divinity means we still have to choose where to put those extra points. More healing? Or crit and some better blessings? Or both crit and a some but not all the healing bonus?
5% increase in healing - I wonder what that means? Is it as simple as taking a 10k heal and adding 5%? Or is it before modifiers? I guess that will make a difference, but personally I think I may prefer spreading the points between getting back the crit from the Ret tree I gave up to get improved kings and getting some of the Divinity bonus.
5% increase in healing - I wonder what that means? Is it as simple as taking a 10k heal and adding 5%? Or is it before modifiers? I guess that will make a difference, but personally I think I may prefer spreading the points between getting back the crit from the Ret tree I gave up to get improved kings and getting some of the Divinity bonus.
"the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
First: thank you guys for pointing out that some of what I posted was not in the patch notes. I already said that :P
Secondly, I totally forgot about the new crafted pieces. There's not just a tanking belt, but boots as well.
There's also some new Glyphs up, as well as changes to old glyphs.
Third, sorry Borsuk. My assumption by "solo tank" was that you were soloing as a tank, not meaning that you were the only tank. What you posted makes more sense now :) And I don't read much of this site except for the Paladin and occasionally other class forums. I had no idea they had the patch stuff posted here, hehe. Good to know :D
EDIT: there are screenshots up for all Tier 8 sets now. Good news is we won't look like Power Rangers this time :)
Female.
Male.
Edited, Feb 25th 2009 1:04am by Maulgak
Secondly, I totally forgot about the new crafted pieces. There's not just a tanking belt, but boots as well.
There's also some new Glyphs up, as well as changes to old glyphs.
Third, sorry Borsuk. My assumption by "solo tank" was that you were soloing as a tank, not meaning that you were the only tank. What you posted makes more sense now :) And I don't read much of this site except for the Paladin and occasionally other class forums. I had no idea they had the patch stuff posted here, hehe. Good to know :D
EDIT: there are screenshots up for all Tier 8 sets now. Good news is we won't look like Power Rangers this time :)
Female.
Male.
Edited, Feb 25th 2009 1:04am by Maulgak
rinkkel, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Quote:
Shield of Righteousness now deals 130% of block value + 520 at the highest rank. It no longer causes a high amount of threat. (Previously increased damage by a set amount)
Has me a little worried. My normal hits with this produce about 10k threat, when I crit it is more like 15k threat. I realize that pallys have a lot of other tools for threat generation but this was a big one. Am I wrong to be a little miffed about this?
It hasn't dealt a "high amount of threat" since beta. It's just a tooltip fix, no worries.
I'm excited (and a little overwhelmed) by the array of sweet glyph choices there will be for prot (copypastad from EJ):
SoV - 10 exp (threat/mitigation)
Righteous Defense - 8% hit on the spell (reliable taunt)
Judgement - 10% more judge damage (threat)
Excosism - 20% more dmg (threat?)
HotR - 1 extra jump (aoe threat)
Divine Plea - perma 3% damage reduction (mitigation)
Hand of Salv - 20% dmg reduction on for 10 sec on 2 min cooldown, but lose 20% threat (mitigation)
Edited, Feb 25th 2009 4:36am by Theophastus
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