Seriously, how freaking ignorant can people at Blizzard possibly be? They knew that priests and druids have serious problems with survivability, yet their only response to that is apparently to increase stun/fear/silence resistance and add snare immunity to Dispersion - along with a rather insignificant stamina buff.
So if I happen to sit on 20K health, I'm getting a whopping 800 health from this new amazing patch that would improve survivability. Hell yeah, I am so freaking glad that I will last about half a second longer than before.
Holy viable in PvP? Apparently not this time around.
Time to level a Paladin or Shaman I guess, if arena healing is ever meant to be fun again and last longer than 10 seconds.
For now I'm done with my priestly efforts in that department. Something is just seriously wrong if you spend more time queued up than in the actual arena simply because any dps class will burst you down within seconds thanks to having completely insufficient dispel resistance for the shield and some sort of immunity against Psychic Scream for those making you join the spectators.
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- So the answer to being underrepresented in PVP..
So the answer to being underrepresented in PVP..Follow
Well, with the caveat that things on the text realms could always change for better or worse, I have to disagree and say 3.1 will help priest PVP enormously.
15% shorter silences, stuns and fears is huge for PVP survival, and it’s low enough in the tree for all three specs.
The stamina boost to Improved PW:F is a slight nerf to the people who took 5/5 Enlightenment for the stamina, but a boost to shadow and holy PVP survival.
Divine aegis stacking is great. No cooldown on PWS for 30% less mana is really great: discipline priests will effectively have borrowed time’s 25% spell haste up all the time. And they’ll be casting penance on themselves, and they’ll have access to a glyph that reduces penance cooldown by another 6 seconds.
The rapture change hurts, but in my experience running out of mana is not the challenge PVP players are struggling with right now.
Pain suppression when stunned? This is great. Dispersion breaks roots and snares? This is great.
Abolish disease will wipe out DK’s diseases as fast as abolish poison wipes out poisons.
Meanwhile, armor penetration effects, which are currently crucifying cloth wearers in PVP, are being modified to reduce armor by a percentage rather than a flat amount. That change alone will boost priest survival enormously against melee.
I hate to get in the way of a perfectly good QQ, but as far as I can tell no other class is getting as much PVP love as priests are in patch 3.1.
The real comedy is that you’re planning to roll a paladin, one of the classes I can defeat the most reliably as a priest, or a shaman, whose PVP problems dwarf those of priests. Good luck with that, hope to see you in 3s with my RMP.
15% shorter silences, stuns and fears is huge for PVP survival, and it’s low enough in the tree for all three specs.
The stamina boost to Improved PW:F is a slight nerf to the people who took 5/5 Enlightenment for the stamina, but a boost to shadow and holy PVP survival.
Divine aegis stacking is great. No cooldown on PWS for 30% less mana is really great: discipline priests will effectively have borrowed time’s 25% spell haste up all the time. And they’ll be casting penance on themselves, and they’ll have access to a glyph that reduces penance cooldown by another 6 seconds.
The rapture change hurts, but in my experience running out of mana is not the challenge PVP players are struggling with right now.
Pain suppression when stunned? This is great. Dispersion breaks roots and snares? This is great.
Abolish disease will wipe out DK’s diseases as fast as abolish poison wipes out poisons.
Meanwhile, armor penetration effects, which are currently crucifying cloth wearers in PVP, are being modified to reduce armor by a percentage rather than a flat amount. That change alone will boost priest survival enormously against melee.
I hate to get in the way of a perfectly good QQ, but as far as I can tell no other class is getting as much PVP love as priests are in patch 3.1.
The real comedy is that you’re planning to roll a paladin, one of the classes I can defeat the most reliably as a priest, or a shaman, whose PVP problems dwarf those of priests. Good luck with that, hope to see you in 3s with my RMP.
I made this post BEFORE glyph changes and additions became public. If you take those out, things DO look rather crappy.
DA stacking is weak if "the amount absorbed cannot exceed 125*level (of the target)." That's 1000 points... oh awesomeness. The use of DA in PvP has been subject of debate anyway, and to me a randomly stacking DA is still just that - random, unreliable, and nothing to count on.
Nobody has questioned the healing output of a priest. The problem was and is survivability, and way too little has been done in that department so far. It takes how long to burst a priest down? 5 seconds?
If you're happy with those changes - more power to you. I'll enjoy the PvE changes to Holy in the meantime, make use of the 2nd spec by going Shadow, and leave the whole PvP thing alone until something truly significant changes.
If this right now is all that Blizzard has to offer, I'm definitely done with priestly PvP for the time being.
DA stacking is weak if "the amount absorbed cannot exceed 125*level (of the target)." That's 1000 points... oh awesomeness. The use of DA in PvP has been subject of debate anyway, and to me a randomly stacking DA is still just that - random, unreliable, and nothing to count on.
Nobody has questioned the healing output of a priest. The problem was and is survivability, and way too little has been done in that department so far. It takes how long to burst a priest down? 5 seconds?
If you're happy with those changes - more power to you. I'll enjoy the PvE changes to Holy in the meantime, make use of the 2nd spec by going Shadow, and leave the whole PvP thing alone until something truly significant changes.
If this right now is all that Blizzard has to offer, I'm definitely done with priestly PvP for the time being.
::nudge Kan:::
125 * 80 = 10,000
Zemzelette wrote:
::nudge Kan:::
125 * 80 = 10,000
...and I thought a 0 meant nothing =P
Quote:
::nudge Kan:::
125 * 80 = 10,000
125 * 80 = 10,000
WHOOPS! *blushes*
Well, I hope Emmit's right, but if it turns out Kann's the one who's right, that's fine too. It'll give me something to blame when I suck besides my Atari-developed reflexes.
PS: no cooldown on PW:S along with reduced mana cost is something I'm very very excited about for PVP.
Edited, Feb 25th 2009 7:32am by teacake
PS: no cooldown on PW:S along with reduced mana cost is something I'm very very excited about for PVP.
Edited, Feb 25th 2009 7:32am by teacake
It is near impossible to buff a class for some ppl to be good at PvP. It seems the OP might be one of these ppl. The O-boards are meant for whining in the hopes over exaggeration and over-reaction might get the attention of some who cares.
didn't the final round in the last tourney include priests on both teams?
tommyguns wrote:
didn't the final round in the last tourney include priests on both teams?
Yes, but that's a very specific comp (PMR).
That's like saying mages are balanced because they were on both teams in the finals, when theres 90 something paladins in the top 100 2v2, and 0 mages.
ok, lets not compare apples to triangles here.
priests are relatively weak in 2v2. agreed
priests are well represented in the top 100 3v3.
priests are in most of the top 100 in 5v5.
priests are awesome for many reasons in BGs, etc.
dont argue the OPness of a few classes to be the UPness of another class. DKs are certainly lacking clear weaknesses in pvp. also, pallies are represented both as healers and as dps now(sometimes both in the same group).
things are no different than when warlock/druid would faceroll S1-S3. at the time they were OP for their respective segments. all others claimed they needed counters for such comps. thus perpetual balancing ensued and brings us to the nonstop QQ of today.
priests are relatively weak in 2v2. agreed
priests are well represented in the top 100 3v3.
priests are in most of the top 100 in 5v5.
priests are awesome for many reasons in BGs, etc.
dont argue the OPness of a few classes to be the UPness of another class. DKs are certainly lacking clear weaknesses in pvp. also, pallies are represented both as healers and as dps now(sometimes both in the same group).
things are no different than when warlock/druid would faceroll S1-S3. at the time they were OP for their respective segments. all others claimed they needed counters for such comps. thus perpetual balancing ensued and brings us to the nonstop QQ of today.
I agree, the PvP changes in 3.1 can only help. It won't turn us into killing-healing machines, but that's just as well since I'd hate for Priests to become to Fotm. There will be a marked improvement for all three specs in PvP, and that can only be a good thing. I don't think healing in arena in Disc was all that bad anyway, even before the 3.1 changes.
And if Shadow can become decent once again, then brilliant. I do miss the days when shadow priests used to melt faces, but I guess that was the 1970s and there's no going back now...
And if Shadow can become decent once again, then brilliant. I do miss the days when shadow priests used to melt faces, but I guess that was the 1970s and there's no going back now...
One point to consider is that there are two types of PvP for Blizzard to consider on servers. The first is open world PvP, not arena and BG PvP.
Obviously these classes only need minor tweaks for open world PvP to be improved, as the players are still successfully playing those builds on those servers.
That those changes are only marginally helpful in Arena's is most likely a less serious consideration. Changes that would make a priest viable in an Arena setting would likely make that same toon very OP on a PvP server.
Obviously these classes only need minor tweaks for open world PvP to be improved, as the players are still successfully playing those builds on those servers.
That those changes are only marginally helpful in Arena's is most likely a less serious consideration. Changes that would make a priest viable in an Arena setting would likely make that same toon very OP on a PvP server.
kingpatzer wrote:
Changes that would make a priest viable in an Arena setting would likely make that same toon very OP on a PvP server.
Does anyone still care about "World PvP"? I mean... When it comes to balance in PvP, isn't it 90% Arena and 10% Bgs now?
I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but are there really people out there who care about the balance for World PvP? I can't imagine so. I used to PvP when i levelled, but balance didn't matter much since there were always level differences, specs differences, or 2v1 situations. When I got to 60/70/80, I did very little World PvP, and balance wasn't much of an issue since so many other factors where at play.
I think the PvP changes that Blizz made with regards to Priests are pretty good. We should be going from "average" to "pretty good", which is all you can ask for really.
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
kingpatzer wrote:
Changes that would make a priest viable in an Arena setting would likely make that same toon very OP on a PvP server.
Does anyone still care about "World PvP"? I mean... When it comes to balance in PvP, isn't it 90% Arena and 10% Bgs now?
No, no one cares about balancing World PvP right now. But it still has to be considered, if for no other sake than having at least a tiny chance of surviving questing. All my characters are on PvP realms, and every time one class or another have floated to the top of the Overpowered toilet, it has had a tremendous impact on World ventures in general.
Did you try leveling something through Death Knight Peninsula as the expansion hit? Or during the time SL/SL Warlocks could kill God if they pissed in his direction? Or when Retardins ruled everything? Wait, they still do, the filthy fsckslaps. Anyway, my point is that balancing for group PvP is great, but it can't allow one class to become completely superior in World PvP.
There's already the matter of class skills and features being exquisitely suited for World PvP (Rogues, Druids, Hunters, Retardins), then add gear differences at 80, and you want to throw actual class imbalance into the mix? World balance needs to be considered, but of course not be the deciding factor in class tweaks.
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
kingpatzer wrote:
Changes that would make a priest viable in an Arena setting would likely make that same toon very OP on a PvP server.
Does anyone still care about "World PvP"? I mean... When it comes to balance in PvP, isn't it 90% Arena and 10% Bgs now?
No, no one cares about balancing World PvP right now. But it still has to be considered, if for no other sake than having at least a tiny chance of surviving questing. All my characters are on PvP realms, and every time one class or another have floated to the top of the Overpowered toilet, it has had a tremendous impact on World ventures in general.
Did you try leveling something through Death Knight Peninsula as the expansion hit? Or during the time SL/SL Warlocks could kill God if they pissed in his direction? Or when Retardins ruled everything? Wait, they still do, the filthy fsckslaps. Anyway, my point is that balancing for group PvP is great, but it can't allow one class to become completely superior in World PvP.
There's already the matter of class skills and features being exquisitely suited for World PvP (Rogues, Druids, Hunters, Retardins), then add gear differences at 80, and you want to throw actual class imbalance into the mix? World balance needs to be considered, but of course not be the deciding factor in class tweaks.
Yeah, all my toons are on PvP servers too. I hear what you're saying, I just think World PvP is pretty low on the list of things that need to be balanced.
I also think that the more Arena gets balanced, the more World PvP gets balanced. I can't quite see how a class could be totally OP in World PvP and yet suck in Arena. Or the other way round. All the exemples you cited in terms of World PvP imbalance could've been used for Arena too.
Edited, Mar 23rd 2009 5:20pm by RedPhoenixxx
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
I also think that the more Arena gets balanced, the more World PvP gets balanced. I can't quite see how a class could be totally OP in World PvP and yet suck in Arena. Or the other way round. All the exemples you cited in terms of World PvP imbalance could've been used for Arena too.
Hunters. S2(I'm pretty sure it was during or at the end of S2).
They were extremely powerful and could easily beat just about every class in a one on one world PvP scenario, druids were the only difficult class to beat in that you had to outlast their mana. At the same time they were the least represented class in every bracket(I'm pretty sure every bracket, I think 5v5 may have had a higher representation of Hunters, but was still pretty low compared to other classes) of Arena.
Hunters were a burst DPS class, while arena was about sustainability. Burst works great in fair world PvP, where it's you against the other guy. But not so great in arena, where the other team has a healer keeping them alive through burst. If you were able to kill the other guy, you were left with low mana, and all of your cooldowns gone. Which made you as about effective to your team as the dead guy for the other team. So hunters were poorly represented in the arena brackets.
I think warlocks had the same issue too.
Edited, Mar 23rd 2009 3:02pm by SynnTastic
Well, it has been over a month since I started this thread, and 3.1 has been coming together. I'm still not overly impressed, though. PW:S is way too easy to dispel or burst through by any class but a warrior, and Dispersion without some health regeneration is like an invitation for rogues and druids to stack 5 combo points on a target near death only to finish it off with a single Eviscerate/Ferocious Bite the moment it ends.
I've since reached 80 with my (feral) druid, and despite having crappy gear still, I am eating priests and locks with such ease that I am just not convinced that 3.1 will change that much. Mages are a completely different story, though, and it really ticks me off that Blizz obviously CAN combine cloth, damage, control, and survivability, but chooses to leave priests out of that almost entirely.
I've since reached 80 with my (feral) druid, and despite having crappy gear still, I am eating priests and locks with such ease that I am just not convinced that 3.1 will change that much. Mages are a completely different story, though, and it really ticks me off that Blizz obviously CAN combine cloth, damage, control, and survivability, but chooses to leave priests out of that almost entirely.
I dunno, I still think priests are moving in the right direction with 3.1. The Pain Suppression glyph, all the changes to shield, self-casting Penance, even being able to flirt with Holy. I'm hardly in the upper echelon of PVPers anyway, so the fact I can't get a high rating with my priest doesn't much bother me since I can't get a high rating with anyone. I'm just there to have fun and I think these changes will be fun.
But that doesn't mean I'm not also having fun leveling my pally...
But that doesn't mean I'm not also having fun leveling my pally...
Quote:
But that doesn't mean I'm not also having fun leveling my pally... Smiley: sly
My pally project has been put on hold for the time being. A major reason for "finishing" the druid was a recent migration offer that would get me off the old crowded server. So now 3 more level 70s (rogue, hunter, warrior) have found a new home and are finally worth playing again. Getting those through Northrend has a higher priority than the little paladin born out of frustration.
And yes, 3.1 is a step into the right direction, but I think it will take yet another season of being bursted down within seconds before priests will become truly playable - enjoyable - again by people capable of less than a 2K rating.
Kanngarnix wrote:
My pally project has been put on hold for the time being.
As well it should be. It's terribly embarrassing to be leveling up the flavor of the month like this.
But I'm not doing it because they're OP now (I know enough to assume they'll be nerfed by the time I get one leveled and geared up). I liked the idea of a healer who shows up for a sword fight in plate instead of a skirt, and hadn't ever played the class beyond 20, so figured I'd give it a shot. I'm kind of surprised by what a blast I'm having with her - it's almost enough to make me feel like I'm cheating on my priest. Oddly I'm sure, soloing with her reminds me a lot of my druid, who I really adored. I forgot how fun hybrids can be. Plus the cool horsie!
Not so much picking the flavor of the month, but trying to adapt to the current situation and what's coming up in the near future. For one thing it's besides mage and shaman the only class I didn't really play yet. For another it's how my toons are split up between realms and factions. Lastly it's how 3.1 is going to affect my other characters.
The priest is on a realm together with my DK tank, I just don't like PvP with the priest right now, and I don't think DK tanking will be a whole lot of fun after 3.1, spoiling my PvE experience there. A holy/prot pally would have been a perfect match to fix both issues, dual-spec and all.
But I'm creating far more options by pulling my 70's out of retirement, besides only having 10 levels to get through rather than 60.
I'll get back to that pally eventually...
The priest is on a realm together with my DK tank, I just don't like PvP with the priest right now, and I don't think DK tanking will be a whole lot of fun after 3.1, spoiling my PvE experience there. A holy/prot pally would have been a perfect match to fix both issues, dual-spec and all.
But I'm creating far more options by pulling my 70's out of retirement, besides only having 10 levels to get through rather than 60.
I'll get back to that pally eventually...
Kanngarnix wrote:
Not so much picking the flavor of the month, but trying to adapt to the current situation and what's coming up in the near future. For one thing it's besides mage and shaman the only class I didn't really play yet.
Oh no, I was not accusing you of being a bandwagon jumper! Merely commenting on my own bandwagon jumping. My guildies are laughing at me.
Although I s'pose it's good to give them a new reason to laugh at me once in a while. My inability to do the Heigan dance was getting old.
Quote:
My inability to do the Heigan dance was getting old.
Hehe.... "You're gonna see the priest turn into... this holy priest thing they turn into..." Rather memorable quote form the Heigan video over at tankspot :P
Kanngarnix wrote:
"You're gonna see the priest turn into... this holy priest thing they turn into..."
LOL! I should get the SoR glyph just so I can stay active that entire fight.
You're not alone though. I have yet to live through that fight with the priest. It's not even the dance part, but the return from phase 2 to 1. The Decrepit Fever gets me like every time he comes back down from the platform while I'm on my way up there. I have all these great plans about shielding/healing/cleansing myself but my spongy brain apparently lacks the speed to put them into action... It's nice though, cause you're getting to make even more plans while you're watching how everybody else kills him over the next 10 minutes or so :)
Just like my current PvP "efforts"... Always hoping that I die in a decent spot so I can still be of use while in spirit form. My very own fatal version of a bubble.
Just like my current PvP "efforts"... Always hoping that I die in a decent spot so I can still be of use while in spirit form. My very own fatal version of a bubble.
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