Just a quick question. I've read that Seal/Judgement of the Martyr can be a good choice for ret pallies. I'm reviewing some Recount reports after an absolutely dismal performance in heroic Naxx tonight on Kel'Thuzad, and I'm seeing things like one ret pally who took a total of 139k damage from Kel'Thuzad on our last attempt...and 92k damage from Martyr (80k Judgement, 12k seal).
My personal thought is that in a fight that is a real challenge for the healers (especially with all the associated boneheadery going on that you wouldn't see in a group that wasn't playing a very sloppy game), a player ought not be stacking that much damage onto themselves. Healers need to be keeping tanks up. They need to be topping up people after mind controls and mana detonations. They need to be focusing on groups through ice blocks. For some groups, they could do all of this and still keep Martyr using pallies (and life tap spamming warlocks, for that matter) up through the fight. Tonight it was an issue.
What would you say? Ret pally notices the healers are having a hard time keeping up so potentially sacrifice a bit of dps and go command instead of martyr, or just plod away?
MartyrFollow
I have no troubles with ret pallies, its very slow steady small amounts of damage. Currently everyone has a form of splash heal that tops off melee, for holy it's glyph of holy light. I find that keeps ret pallies topped off enough. From my understanding, they basically need to take the damage anyways to get a few heals (spiritual attunement) to keep mana high enough for their dps rotation. Sure they can plea, but I'm assuming they already do. And plea on a 5k mana pool isn't much anyways.
As a healer, I love my ret paladins, they give me tons of mana so they can go wacking themself for 4k every 8 seconds I don't mind at all. Glyph of holy light is enough anyways, so is chain heal, wild growth on melee or CoH. They're pretty low maintenance.
As a healer, I love my ret paladins, they give me tons of mana so they can go wacking themself for 4k every 8 seconds I don't mind at all. Glyph of holy light is enough anyways, so is chain heal, wild growth on melee or CoH. They're pretty low maintenance.
Yup, the relatively minor amount of damage that Martyr brings is dished out many times over in the amount of damage the resulting heals bring in. Honestly, even with the SoC glyph, the difference can be quite large over time in a PVE situation. There have been times where I've switched it out with SoC for the reasons you outlined, but I find I tend to go oom more often when I do that (understandably so). Unless it's a make or break it with the healers, SoM is the way to go.
Hands down Martyr for ret dps.
Also as others stated Spiritual attunment means heals equal mana and we all know mana equals dps. Its also not like Shadow Word Death where you can one shot yourself if you do it at the wrong time, since the damage is so miniscule,
Also as others stated Spiritual attunment means heals equal mana and we all know mana equals dps. Its also not like Shadow Word Death where you can one shot yourself if you do it at the wrong time, since the damage is so miniscule,
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
The damage is mostly the point. It regenerates mana.
As long as your healers aren't retarded, it should be negligible. If it's causing a problem, it's not the paladin's fault. The healers just aren't healing the DPS.
As long as your healers aren't retarded, it should be negligible. If it's causing a problem, it's not the paladin's fault. The healers just aren't healing the DPS.
Thanks for the feedback. I was reluctant to comment on what I saw in /g after the raid (re: damage to 3 ret pallies from Martyr over 220k total in one attempt at KT). It's a frustrating situation compounded (and confused) by my displeasure with our melee crew in general for surrounding Kel'Thuzad in a ********* of ground based AoE (3 x Consecrate, 2 x Death and Decay) + Divine Storm basically killing half the people who got mind controlled if Kel decided he wanted the mind controlled folks to go to the middle. Throw in 3 ret pallies staying in the middle when any of them got tagged with Mana Detonation and it was just ugly.
At least they're off the hook for SoM ;D
At least they're off the hook for SoM ;D
Compare that to the damage the MT and OT took. I suspect you'll find it trivial.
Tsarducci wrote:
Compare that to the damage the MT and OT took. I suspect you'll find it trivial.
Yes, it would be trivial. Compared to the damage each of the ret pallies took overall, it was far from trivial. My primary concern was that in a fight that (for whatever reason) had our healers taxed to their very limits and where we could lose healers from time to time to mind controls, volunteering to create extra damage for the healers to address was questionable in my eyes. I know there are a lot of guilds that could go into a Kel'Thuzad encounter with the exact same group composition and do fine. As a result of the feedback given here in response to my question, I've left the Martyr issue out of the concerns I need to bring up with our RL (he was away on vacation all last week) and will instead talk to him about the incredibly sloppy use of AoE to pad dps meters in a fight where several of our raiders got mind controlled into it and subsequently died.
How was CC on the mind controls? I used to run Kel25 on my mage, and since I basically needed decursive for the fight before it, I found it handy on Kel'thuzad as well. I believe it was a simple right-click to chain polymorph anyone who was MC'd and I just spammed it until it wore off. It broke basically every GCD, but I was chain casting sheep so fast it was a non-issue.
My paladin is newer, and I've never actually had a chance to heal Kel25 yet. So I wasn't actually paying attention much in 25 to how many people were getting frost blasted at a time. But I've done it enough on 10 man to know that 2 people getting frost blasted at once is total fail. It's generally OK to recover from, but absolute basic positioning logic dictates people should be spread well enough that theres never a reason for 2 people to get blasted on 10. So I figure on 25 man, you'd have 2 people tops getting frost blasted. More then that, I'd be pretty adament about telling people to spread the f**k out (sigh I've been saying that for a while now, people never learn).
Mana detonation, I guess the only excuse I can see for this hitting anyone in the raid is if they're mind controlled. IIRC, DBM pops a skull on the person anyways, people should be a little quicker to react.
It sounds like people were just too obsessed with the damage meters and things like "CC the MC, interupt the frostbolts, spread the f*** out" took a back seat to their place in the DPS race.
My paladin is newer, and I've never actually had a chance to heal Kel25 yet. So I wasn't actually paying attention much in 25 to how many people were getting frost blasted at a time. But I've done it enough on 10 man to know that 2 people getting frost blasted at once is total fail. It's generally OK to recover from, but absolute basic positioning logic dictates people should be spread well enough that theres never a reason for 2 people to get blasted on 10. So I figure on 25 man, you'd have 2 people tops getting frost blasted. More then that, I'd be pretty adament about telling people to spread the f**k out (sigh I've been saying that for a while now, people never learn).
Mana detonation, I guess the only excuse I can see for this hitting anyone in the raid is if they're mind controlled. IIRC, DBM pops a skull on the person anyways, people should be a little quicker to react.
It sounds like people were just too obsessed with the damage meters and things like "CC the MC, interupt the frostbolts, spread the f*** out" took a back seat to their place in the DPS race.
be carefull in fights where you get damage boosts, ive actually had healers have to focus heal me on Mally fights when a double stack is actually with in melee range and i pop my CDs. a judgement crit with that kind of buff is killer.
same for Thadius fight.
same for Thadius fight.
I was going to say the same thing Ruen. You can hurt your self pretty bad if you are all boosted and land huge crit. I use blood most times of course but their are occasions where SoC is safer. Another example is the Vortex on Maly you dont really want to be half dead when it starts. Or you dont want to be damaged already when KT iceblocks you. What I try and do is heal myself before Bigwigs warns me that a possible one shot event is immenent. I am usually our Kiter on Zombie chow but that is another example with Decimate.
If my Healers are overwhelmed and I cant top myself off with a quick insta FoL I don't mind switching to SoC. It's a judgement call but either way I am usualy the last DPS standing thanks to self heals and bubble.
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 11:34am by Shojindo
If my Healers are overwhelmed and I cant top myself off with a quick insta FoL I don't mind switching to SoC. It's a judgement call but either way I am usualy the last DPS standing thanks to self heals and bubble.
Edited, Feb 24th 2009 11:34am by Shojindo
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