Just wanted to know who would come out on top as the better tank. I've got an 80 prot warrior right now. About to start a prot pally. I know mana is a big issue. Just want to know what I'm in store for. Why 2 tanks. Well I love both pally and warrior. So I just want to have both to play. Dinged 80 on my warrior last night. I'm going to solo a bit and also instance my way up the leveling chain. Any certain builds I need to focus on. Or Just go heavy in the prot tree for leveling. I'm not wanting to level as ret. I don't learn that way + I have a 44 ret pally. I use him for PvP. Maybe something like this for leveling:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZax0icugtcIoho
Far as I got was 60. I'm not experienced in pally building except ret. Ok going to go try to find something in the stickie. Thanks to those who reply.
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Prot Pally vs. Prot Warrior?Follow
Mana is a non-issue for tanking protection pallies in groups. It can be a serious issue while solo if you're fighting things one at a time. Neither class will come out on top as the better tank. Each tank has certain advantages/disadvantages when applied to different situations. The main advantage warriors currently have over paladins is more ready access to spell interrupts, which will likely be resolved with 3.1 if the proposed additions to shield-based abilities for paladins go through.
Now granted this is coming from a die hard pally tank, but I love them. They were kings of aoe tanking in BC for my personal favorite instance of Shattered halls. As far as leveling prot.....good luck with that, I went ret to mid 50's just because you could tank or dps till mid 50's.
Umm, yea I think pallies still have the best AoE tanking ability, DK's are close though. Anyways, umm, yea as was said before mana isn't a problem at all anymore. I'd suggest keeping a good 2h weapon with you for those time you're soloing, makes things a little easier unless you just do AoE stuff.
As far as build goes, I'd prefer this, but that's just personal preference. For the rest of the points I'd just dump into ret. Skipped BOK because seems like a lot of holy/ret pallies will pick that up, so that's another one of those personal preferences.
Umm, yea I think pallies still have the best AoE tanking ability, DK's are close though. Anyways, umm, yea as was said before mana isn't a problem at all anymore. I'd suggest keeping a good 2h weapon with you for those time you're soloing, makes things a little easier unless you just do AoE stuff.
As far as build goes, I'd prefer this, but that's just personal preference. For the rest of the points I'd just dump into ret. Skipped BOK because seems like a lot of holy/ret pallies will pick that up, so that's another one of those personal preferences.
troll, you didn't actually include a link in your post :D Maybe you'll come back here, see this, and you can edit that in ;)
For the OP, there was a topic up for a while here recently discussing which of these 2 was "better", so I won't go into that. As far as leveling goes, I think I'd start out with Kings first. The Strength won't be a huge deal as you start, I think the total stat boost from Kings would be more beneficial. Plus, groups always love to have a Paly with Kings. Probably Divine Strength next as your other options really aren't that great/necessary for leveling or lower content. Then Improved Righteous Fury: damage reduction being big here for soloing, and the threat to allow you to tank in groups.
From there, pick whatever to fill the 2 points you need, and start moving down the tree again. Imp. Hammer is nice for soloing, Sanctuary you want as soon as you can get it, Reckoning is nice for leveling up as you still have low enough avoidance for it to proc reasonably often. Pretty much start taking the talents that focus more on your damage rather than longevity as that will be the most important for you: meaning things like Sacred Duty could be skipped at first in favor of 1H Spec and Holy Shield, then gone back for.
For the OP, there was a topic up for a while here recently discussing which of these 2 was "better", so I won't go into that. As far as leveling goes, I think I'd start out with Kings first. The Strength won't be a huge deal as you start, I think the total stat boost from Kings would be more beneficial. Plus, groups always love to have a Paly with Kings. Probably Divine Strength next as your other options really aren't that great/necessary for leveling or lower content. Then Improved Righteous Fury: damage reduction being big here for soloing, and the threat to allow you to tank in groups.
From there, pick whatever to fill the 2 points you need, and start moving down the tree again. Imp. Hammer is nice for soloing, Sanctuary you want as soon as you can get it, Reckoning is nice for leveling up as you still have low enough avoidance for it to proc reasonably often. Pretty much start taking the talents that focus more on your damage rather than longevity as that will be the most important for you: meaning things like Sacred Duty could be skipped at first in favor of 1H Spec and Holy Shield, then gone back for.
In my opinion, there is no reason to run Prot until 35. Frankly all the abilities before 35 suck and you’re not even ½ way to 80, so it’s not like (as you said) you aren’t learning. Go Ret till 35. Then make the switch.
At 35, Google “Paly AOE Tanking Build†and start to learn to AOE tank. (There are good movies and talent trees out there and it’s pretty much the same concept from TBC to now.) Effectively you have 4 abilities that you must constantly monitor while you AOE tank. You can judge the mob with +Heals or +Mana… You can then seal yourself with +Heals or +Mana.
The seal on yourself returns more mana or health respectively than the judgment on the mob. As an AOE tank – your goal is to slowly cause so much reflective damage, while taking very little damage through good armor, and returning either mana or health depending on your need. Sometimes this means you Judge/Seal health, sometimes it’s mana, many times it’s a combo.
Beginners will start with pulls of 2-4. By the end you’ll find you are traveling so far you are losing mobs due to them being “Leashed†to a certain area. In Borean Tundra – I can’t pull enough Rhinos…
Get yourself a good 1H and a shield. Put a shield spike on it. Be ready to Bubble, Have bandages, have pots. (remember, Mana often is more important than health)
At 35, Google “Paly AOE Tanking Build†and start to learn to AOE tank. (There are good movies and talent trees out there and it’s pretty much the same concept from TBC to now.) Effectively you have 4 abilities that you must constantly monitor while you AOE tank. You can judge the mob with +Heals or +Mana… You can then seal yourself with +Heals or +Mana.
The seal on yourself returns more mana or health respectively than the judgment on the mob. As an AOE tank – your goal is to slowly cause so much reflective damage, while taking very little damage through good armor, and returning either mana or health depending on your need. Sometimes this means you Judge/Seal health, sometimes it’s mana, many times it’s a combo.
Beginners will start with pulls of 2-4. By the end you’ll find you are traveling so far you are losing mobs due to them being “Leashed†to a certain area. In Borean Tundra – I can’t pull enough Rhinos…
Get yourself a good 1H and a shield. Put a shield spike on it. Be ready to Bubble, Have bandages, have pots. (remember, Mana often is more important than health)
Souliken wrote:
Just wanted to know who would come out on top as the better tank. I've got an 80 prot warrior right now. About to start a prot pally. I know mana is a big issue.
That said, and my bias is obvious, playing a Prot Paladin is a blast. I swapped to a Prot build at about 70, and hit the Isle of Quel'Danas. It was slow going at first. I was a lot more survivable, almost unkillable in fact, but getting the kills was much slower. And then I learned to pull more, more, more mobs. Once you're killing 3+ at a time it starts looking like about the same speed as a solo pulling Ret Paladin, but it's a lot more fun as it makes you feel like a stud. :-D
Mana is no issue in groups, but it can be while questing. You learn to use your BoW and JoW as a refill, swapping to health restoring as needed. Buy a couple stacks of the yummy Q'D mana biscuits and you're golden for getting back in action fast.
For multi-pulls, I like to gather them while mounted. Find a group of 4 and run an inside circle, peeling off for another as soon as one aggroes. For the 4th use AS or HoR to pull from a range, then turn back and start hitting mob #1. It takes some practice, but you can get it down to a nice rhythm where none will evade leash back to their original spot.
Edit: Link
Edited, Feb 23rd 2009 12:32pm by Kompera
re: aoe tanking, you can gather as many mobs as you can handle and pull them as far away from their location as you wish provided you 'tag' them every of often. If you see a heard of Rhinos spread out you can aggro the first few then run to the next group, drop a consecration and ensure your first group takes some damage from it. This way the first groups evade distance is reset. You can do this infinitly until you have as many groups as you like without any of them running away at a set distance.
Obviously it was much nicer to do when lvl1 consecration cost less mana than lvlwhateveritisat80!
Obviously it was much nicer to do when lvl1 consecration cost less mana than lvlwhateveritisat80!
Quote:
Umm, yea I think pallies still have the best AoE tanking ability
eh yes and no i would say. on my druid i can pull off pallies non stop by swipe and mauleing mobs. same with most warriors. but i cant hit mobs behind me so there they accel at. i think it's all on how you play your toon. druids need them infront to be great at it. warriors need them to hit them really. pally and dk can do a true aoe and i think dk can do best cause they can cast the aoe way from them some. all in all i think it's more on the person than the class. i've seend pallies loose to healers. warriros loose to healers, druids loose to who ever is aoeing the mobs behind they're swipe.
atm i'm lvling my pally then after getting 25 man geared going to my warrior.
Quote:
eh yes and no i would say. on my druid i can pull off pallies non stop by swipe and mauleing mobs. same with most warriors. but i cant hit mobs behind me so there they accel at. i think it's all on how you play your toon. druids need them infront to be great at it. warriors need them to hit them really. pally and dk can do a true aoe and i think dk can do best cause they can cast the aoe way from them some. all in all i think it's more on the person than the class. i've seend pallies loose to healers. warriros loose to healers, druids loose to who ever is aoeing the mobs behind they're swipe.
atm i'm lvling my pally then after getting 25 man geared going to my warrior.
atm i'm lvling my pally then after getting 25 man geared going to my warrior.
Wow. My fellow tanks hate how much TPS I put out. 30% more than warriors and God knows how much more than the (very good) druid tank. Palies, at present, seem to pump out a ton more threat than other tanks, and do so faster and easier it seems to.
OP. Paladins are great currently, but don't try to level prot til 35 as others have said, it's really not worth it. I leveled prot most of the way, but it's only after 35 that things get really interesting.
I'm going to wait tell about 40 to switch to prot. Right now I'm ret. Rets really strong. I'm loving it atm but I will eventually go prot as I do run instances now on a regular basis. Got some pretty decent gear to. I think I'm addicted to running dungeons now. I look at a green on the AH and say to myself "Meh I can get this..from this instance". Can't help it now. Running in groups has me pumped and ready to go!
I've only ever tanked as a pally, so I can't say which is best. Paladins are easier to heal due to HS keeping your block up. As far as threat goes, pallies are kings. If you know how to tank, you will hold aggro off everyone.
Now...the ret vs prot leveling...
I leveled as Ret until 34, when I switched to prot for this famous AoE grinding I've heard about for so long. I know everyone here says wait til 35-40 to switch. Well I couldn't effin wait. But I probably should have. I died SO MANY TIMES for the first few levels while I was learning how to AoE tank and how much I could handle. I remember thinking that I could probably take on at least 5 mobs my level as soon as I switched over to prot. It didn't work out that way. I ended up having to back down to 3 mobs for a while to get used to playstyle.
Now, even though I did it at 34, I recommend waiting til 40 to switch to prot and AoE tank just so you have Holy Shield. HS made a huge difference when I was leveling. You would take less damage and deal more damage.
*sighs*
This thread reminded me of when I cleared SM:Cath in 2 pulls. Everyone outside the Cathedral....then everyone inside (boss included). Granted I was already 70, but it was still fun to see a number fountain out my character's head.
Now...the ret vs prot leveling...
I leveled as Ret until 34, when I switched to prot for this famous AoE grinding I've heard about for so long. I know everyone here says wait til 35-40 to switch. Well I couldn't effin wait. But I probably should have. I died SO MANY TIMES for the first few levels while I was learning how to AoE tank and how much I could handle. I remember thinking that I could probably take on at least 5 mobs my level as soon as I switched over to prot. It didn't work out that way. I ended up having to back down to 3 mobs for a while to get used to playstyle.
Now, even though I did it at 34, I recommend waiting til 40 to switch to prot and AoE tank just so you have Holy Shield. HS made a huge difference when I was leveling. You would take less damage and deal more damage.
*sighs*
This thread reminded me of when I cleared SM:Cath in 2 pulls. Everyone outside the Cathedral....then everyone inside (boss included). Granted I was already 70, but it was still fun to see a number fountain out my character's head.
If you plan on AoE grinding beware of PvP. You have a chance to fight back in PvP if you're fighting one mob at a time but if you're AoE grinding when PvP comes your way you're very dead.
Warrior vs pally...
Warrior abilities are designed around melee combat superiority. So they are best at boosting melee damage and at countering combat abilities.
Paladin abilities are designed around team support abilities. So they are best at using circumstantial spells that turn the tide in favor of their team. (ie: bubble your teammates, dispel silence/cc from the healer, lay on hands, etc). One thing that makes pallytanks specially powerful is the fact that you can at the same time tank and perform a few magic interventions that only a support class can perform. You shouldn't die from your healer being sheeped/silenced/sleeped because you CAN cleanse that.
Pally is easymode tanking now. Anyone here remember SEAL OF FURY? Now with just SoR and Consecrate you can take care of everything, and once you get Holy Shield it gets crazy.
Warriors don't think mana, warriors will get rage for as long as they are fighting, they just need to be fighting. With a Pally you need to learn to mix and match your gear with holy gear for solo/pvp or you're going to outlast your mana, and you don't last long if you get OOM.
Warriors and DKs don't need to prepare anything, if you're standing you're good to go. Paladins need to put up buffs, seal, and aura and mana up sometimes.
Warriors are the thing, their warriorness can't be dispelled or silenced off of them. Paladin and DK abilities are spells, so silence spamming mobs are annoying. Righteous fury is a magic buff and can be dispelled by dispelling mobs.
Paladins are the only tank that is vulnerable to mana drain and mana burn effects, it's not going to make any pull impossible but it will make some pulls harder. Warriors and DKs are totally immune to mana attacks.
Paladin tanks get Judgement of Justice. Warriors in Defensive Stance can't even hamstring.
Warriors break fear/charm easy and often. Paladin breaking fear/charm means using the bubble, on the other hand the bubble can free you from any cc and removes every debuff that can be removed.
But if you're leaning towards warrior you may want to try DK since DKs are like a completely stronger version of the warrior atm, which is easier to use too.
Warrior vs pally...
Warrior abilities are designed around melee combat superiority. So they are best at boosting melee damage and at countering combat abilities.
Paladin abilities are designed around team support abilities. So they are best at using circumstantial spells that turn the tide in favor of their team. (ie: bubble your teammates, dispel silence/cc from the healer, lay on hands, etc). One thing that makes pallytanks specially powerful is the fact that you can at the same time tank and perform a few magic interventions that only a support class can perform. You shouldn't die from your healer being sheeped/silenced/sleeped because you CAN cleanse that.
Pally is easymode tanking now. Anyone here remember SEAL OF FURY? Now with just SoR and Consecrate you can take care of everything, and once you get Holy Shield it gets crazy.
Warriors don't think mana, warriors will get rage for as long as they are fighting, they just need to be fighting. With a Pally you need to learn to mix and match your gear with holy gear for solo/pvp or you're going to outlast your mana, and you don't last long if you get OOM.
Warriors and DKs don't need to prepare anything, if you're standing you're good to go. Paladins need to put up buffs, seal, and aura and mana up sometimes.
Warriors are the thing, their warriorness can't be dispelled or silenced off of them. Paladin and DK abilities are spells, so silence spamming mobs are annoying. Righteous fury is a magic buff and can be dispelled by dispelling mobs.
Paladins are the only tank that is vulnerable to mana drain and mana burn effects, it's not going to make any pull impossible but it will make some pulls harder. Warriors and DKs are totally immune to mana attacks.
Paladin tanks get Judgement of Justice. Warriors in Defensive Stance can't even hamstring.
Warriors break fear/charm easy and often. Paladin breaking fear/charm means using the bubble, on the other hand the bubble can free you from any cc and removes every debuff that can be removed.
But if you're leaning towards warrior you may want to try DK since DKs are like a completely stronger version of the warrior atm, which is easier to use too.
There is little difference between the two as far as capability goes.
Mana is not an issue.
Every heal you get returns mana to you.
Every time you Dodge/Block, etc you get mana from one of your blessings.
If mana is a problem you can put a de-buff on the mob that causes you to get mana on hits. You can also buff yourself for mana on hits.
There is also a 1m CD ability that returns 25% of your mana over like 10 seconds
If you are running instances and having problems with mana, you are likely out gearing the instance and not taking enough heals. I don't believe in dropping gear down to make it more likely I take big damage - I'd rather directly control the damage by using X and sitting down. "De-Gearing" means you always take more damage - thus more heals (mana).... I prefer to control it directly. But you are a way from that point.
Mana is not an issue.
Every heal you get returns mana to you.
Every time you Dodge/Block, etc you get mana from one of your blessings.
If mana is a problem you can put a de-buff on the mob that causes you to get mana on hits. You can also buff yourself for mana on hits.
There is also a 1m CD ability that returns 25% of your mana over like 10 seconds
If you are running instances and having problems with mana, you are likely out gearing the instance and not taking enough heals. I don't believe in dropping gear down to make it more likely I take big damage - I'd rather directly control the damage by using X and sitting down. "De-Gearing" means you always take more damage - thus more heals (mana).... I prefer to control it directly. But you are a way from that point.
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