I haven't been checking the DK forums as religiously as I should, especially after the Killing Machine fix. If you check my armory I've been using a 0/32/39 dw spec with a Maexxna's femur and Fang of Truth.
Obviously since the fix my dps has dropped, I'm still the top dps in my guild but I'm always looking to improve.
I'd prefer to not change my spec, beyond moving the 3 points from Nerves of Steel, since I enjoy being able to dps even though I may not be near the boss due to aoe or kiting. Though I do have a Titansteel Destroyer ready, I'm just not sure how it would affect my dps.
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Dual Wield. Yes, No, Maybe?Follow
my DK is only lvl 70. So your DPS # are going to be different from mine..
I like unholy, and i did a Unholy/Frost spec. with DW being the reason. My DPS was around 350 and if everything worked right, i could get it up around 500.
Last week I respeced, and instead of putting points in Frost, I went Blood. I'm 10/0/50 (?..i have only 50 in unholy and the rest into blood.). My DPS w/ a 2 Handed Mace is now at 500 and i can get it to climb if everything works out.
Your spec seems odd, but if it works out, awesome.
I like unholy, and i did a Unholy/Frost spec. with DW being the reason. My DPS was around 350 and if everything worked right, i could get it up around 500.
Last week I respeced, and instead of putting points in Frost, I went Blood. I'm 10/0/50 (?..i have only 50 in unholy and the rest into blood.). My DPS w/ a 2 Handed Mace is now at 500 and i can get it to climb if everything works out.
Your spec seems odd, but if it works out, awesome.
Well when this spec first came out it was to abuse the Killing Machine talent. Since it used to proc on every melee crit. So every few hits I had an auto-crit Howling Blast or Icy Touch. Since the patch KM will only proc 5 times a minute. I lost about 1000 dps but I still out dps the T7.25 hunters (the two former highest dps in the guild) by about 700 to 1000 dps.
Unfortunately due to my schedule I can't really raid anymore. Raids are scheduled for 6 or 7pm and I don't get home from work till 9pm. So they are still getting better gear while I'm pretty much stuck with what I have. So I'm hoping to find a spec/weapon that will enable me to keep up even though they're still getting better gear.
Unfortunately due to my schedule I can't really raid anymore. Raids are scheduled for 6 or 7pm and I don't get home from work till 9pm. So they are still getting better gear while I'm pretty much stuck with what I have. So I'm hoping to find a spec/weapon that will enable me to keep up even though they're still getting better gear.
Here's a question about Dual Wield. I am currently DPSing in Blood with the Titansteel Destroyer.
What kind of starting swords would you recommend for me to start the transition to Dual Wielding? I am asking about instance/heroic/quest/rep gear, not raid drops, since I won't get anything there unless I'm in there as Dual Wield already.
I've tried looking around, and frankly I have no idea if I need fast weapons, slow weapons, or a mix of both. Most guides I see online talk about what upgrades to get from raids, not the starting out gear.
What kind of starting swords would you recommend for me to start the transition to Dual Wielding? I am asking about instance/heroic/quest/rep gear, not raid drops, since I won't get anything there unless I'm in there as Dual Wield already.
I've tried looking around, and frankly I have no idea if I need fast weapons, slow weapons, or a mix of both. Most guides I see online talk about what upgrades to get from raids, not the starting out gear.
To be honest its changed so much and I haven't seen as many DW posts (or rarely any at all) since 3.0.8 that I'm not completely sure anymore.
I believe its now Slow/Fast or Slow/Slow. Previously BCB would trigger a mainhand attack (similar to rogue sword specialization), so having a faster OH would be very beneficial. Also fast weapons would proc KM more often.
Now, KM is a hard 5 PPM, and BCB is based on the weapon that is used, however necrosis also got a huge buff.
To start, get the blue honor swords from knights of the ebon blade, then get your grasscutter (50 badge offhand) and work towards any epic sword for your mainhand.
I believe its now Slow/Fast or Slow/Slow. Previously BCB would trigger a mainhand attack (similar to rogue sword specialization), so having a faster OH would be very beneficial. Also fast weapons would proc KM more often.
Now, KM is a hard 5 PPM, and BCB is based on the weapon that is used, however necrosis also got a huge buff.
To start, get the blue honor swords from knights of the ebon blade, then get your grasscutter (50 badge offhand) and work towards any epic sword for your mainhand.
My first time in 10-man Naxx, I was trying to tank. I came out of the instance with http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=39291 and http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=39270. My 2H weapon is still http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=37733, so I thought I'd go DW DPS.
It's working out pretty well for me. I'm still in mostly ilvl 200 blues, with a few epics, and I usually do 2k DPS to a 5-man boss. Depending on when I use my gargoyle and if I use AotD before the pull, I've pushed out 3k DPS on stuff like the Infinite Corrupter in Stratholme.
It's working out pretty well for me. I'm still in mostly ilvl 200 blues, with a few epics, and I usually do 2k DPS to a 5-man boss. Depending on when I use my gargoyle and if I use AotD before the pull, I've pushed out 3k DPS on stuff like the Infinite Corrupter in Stratholme.
Overall jury is kinda out on DWing from what I've been reading. If you look at the world best patchwerk WMO parses, most of the top ones are in-fact DW. Now be aware of their raid setup, how they stack the raid with less healers and keep the fight really short. Will DWing be the best dps for YOU? I'm not sure.
I also am seeing a bunch of diseaseless blood specs out there, and Blizzard has all but said they're going to nerf that spec (all they'd have to do is decrease the weapon damage and increase the per disease damage, but doing so would really nerf blood and buff unholy). I also believe they're going to nerf DW more because of its wide-spread use at top level performance, though I'm not sure how. My point in saying this is that DW might be good now, but don't become overly specialized in only being able to play a DW DK, because they're probably going to change it to the point where it isn't ideal.
Personally I've never been out dps'd by a DW when they've been in the same raid as me, but then again I haven't partied with that many either. I can't personally tell whether it's the way to go, but I like the idea of using a 2h so I'm inclined to stick with it, unless my dps stops being competitive.
I also am seeing a bunch of diseaseless blood specs out there, and Blizzard has all but said they're going to nerf that spec (all they'd have to do is decrease the weapon damage and increase the per disease damage, but doing so would really nerf blood and buff unholy). I also believe they're going to nerf DW more because of its wide-spread use at top level performance, though I'm not sure how. My point in saying this is that DW might be good now, but don't become overly specialized in only being able to play a DW DK, because they're probably going to change it to the point where it isn't ideal.
Personally I've never been out dps'd by a DW when they've been in the same raid as me, but then again I haven't partied with that many either. I can't personally tell whether it's the way to go, but I like the idea of using a 2h so I'm inclined to stick with it, unless my dps stops being competitive.
Darn...I was hoping to get a concrete answer. And before anyone says go to EJ, I will warn you that my math skills are...lacking at best. Most of EJ's posts go so far over my head that I only see clouds when I look up. I am unfortunately one of those people who NEED someone else to do the math and tell me in concise layman's terms if I'm doing it wrong. Throwing a complicated algebra formula at me does absolutely nothing.
Therenody wrote:
Darn...I was hoping to get a concrete answer. And before anyone says go to EJ, I will warn you that my math skills are...lacking at best. Most of EJ's posts go so far over my head that I only see clouds when I look up. I am unfortunately one of those people who NEED someone else to do the math and tell me in concise layman's terms if I'm doing it wrong. Throwing a complicated algebra formula at me does absolutely nothing.
The answer is now clearcut, and the answer is "no".
No more Howling Blast + Necrosis + BCB = no more DW. I guess I'm gonna try deep Unholy now, or maybe go back to Blood.
If you haven't read yet, any competitive DW spec looks like it will be dead by the time 3.1 comes out. Unholy seems like the new premier DPS spec, with Blood just behind it. EJ forums have crashed for now, but that's how far into them I had read before then :-P
15 posts
I'm curious to know what a good rotation would be for Unholy spec; and also, which aura and presence is most effective to have up for this build?
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If you haven't read yet, any competitive DW spec looks like it will be dead by the time 3.1 comes out. Unholy seems like the new premier DPS spec, with Blood just behind it. EJ forums have crashed for now, but that's how far into them I had read before then :-P
Even though the 32/39 spec is dead, there will always be a new DW spec.
I really dislike dual wielding on a deathknight, but I'll bet you 500g that within the first month they'll find a new DW spec.
edit: god, I really have to stop posting right before i go to bed :>
Thanks for catching that dillbrt.
Edited, Mar 3rd 2009 3:18pm by NeroSeekerOfSouls
NeroSeekerOfSouls wrote:
Even though the 32/39 spec is dead, there will always submerge a new DW spec.
I really dislike dual wielding on a deathknight, but I'll bet you 500g that within the first month they'll find a new DW spec.
I really dislike dual wielding on a deathknight, but I'll bet you 500g that within the first month they'll find a new DW spec.
I THINK you emerge not submerge
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I THINK you emerge not submerge
Even with that change, the sentence is horrible.
I ASSUME he means that a new DW spec will emerge. But, it would really be easier to change the word to "be." Makes just as much sense, and is pleasing to everyone.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
For everyone saying that DW is on its deathbed, getting ready to die in 3.1, and for everyone that is listening, please keep something in mind: When the DK was first introduced and theorycrafting was first beginning to emerge, and then again once actual testing was beginning, everyone said that DW was fail and a complete waste of time for all DK's.
Time proved otherwise.
Now, am I saying DW will remain on top for 3.1? No. All I'm saying is that, as always, it's best to play things by ear. Planning around the present or even the future in a game like WoW that is patched as often and as heavily as it is and with as many x-factors as it has is not without benefit, but to think in absolutes is pure folly.
Personally, I say go with whatever strikes your fancy. If you're interested in DW, go DW. Now and/or in 3.1.
Time proved otherwise.
Now, am I saying DW will remain on top for 3.1? No. All I'm saying is that, as always, it's best to play things by ear. Planning around the present or even the future in a game like WoW that is patched as often and as heavily as it is and with as many x-factors as it has is not without benefit, but to think in absolutes is pure folly.
Personally, I say go with whatever strikes your fancy. If you're interested in DW, go DW. Now and/or in 3.1.
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I THINK you emerge not submerge
yup.
10 posts
I'm currently using a 31/40 build doing 3k+ dps in 10mans. And from past experiences in raiding on my mage Blizz will always leave one option to go and I think i found it. 0/16/55I've done the math and with a fast/fast with each weapon hitting every 1 second you should be doing close to the same dps as a 2hand DK. this is because with both weapons doing a combined 800 damage every second you should be doing more damage than a 2hand user would in 3seconds; about 2400 damage in 3seconds (no crits) to their 1300 damage per swing. add in the crits and you do more. this makes up for the fact that your melee abilities will do less damage. Since most 2hand users use blood they wont have the extra rune refresh rate either.
Hey Choo, when I clicked your 0/16/55 link a 0/52/19 build came up.
that link brings me to a 52/19 build as well. with that being said, choo is talking about currently using a 31/40 build, while talking about using a future 16/55 build, while the link is bringing people to a 52/19 build...
If people can get a dw build to work, great on them. But with some of the upcoming changes, i do not see the dw build as viable as it currently is. You have to go deep into frost to get howling blast, which (as it stands now) no longer does double damage if frost fever is applied, that does not leave much left in unholy (or blood to take).
as far as that statement goes, I am a 2 handed 17/0/54 build, mostly unholy.
Generally speaking, is the dw spec still popular? it seems like i rarely see it in 25 mans. The last time I saw it was in a 25 man OS a few weeks ago, the dw dk and myself were pretty much battling back and forth for the top slots.
If people can get a dw build to work, great on them. But with some of the upcoming changes, i do not see the dw build as viable as it currently is. You have to go deep into frost to get howling blast, which (as it stands now) no longer does double damage if frost fever is applied, that does not leave much left in unholy (or blood to take).
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Since most 2hand users use blood they wont have the extra rune refresh rate either.
as far as that statement goes, I am a 2 handed 17/0/54 build, mostly unholy.
Generally speaking, is the dw spec still popular? it seems like i rarely see it in 25 mans. The last time I saw it was in a 25 man OS a few weeks ago, the dw dk and myself were pretty much battling back and forth for the top slots.
10 posts
HA! fixed it Theres a working link for my build above.
Edit: >.< just tried the link and it doesnt work ill try to fix it here pretty soon.
Anyways theres our new tree. the 15/56 has frost down to icy talons and all the way down unholy to get gargoyle.
Edited, Mar 12th 2009 5:58am by Choobacka
Edited, Mar 12th 2009 6:01am by Choobacka
Edited, Mar 12th 2009 6:02am by Choobacka
Edit:
Anyways theres our new tree. the 15/56 has frost down to icy talons and all the way down unholy to get gargoyle.
Edited, Mar 12th 2009 5:58am by Choobacka
Edited, Mar 12th 2009 6:01am by Choobacka
Edited, Mar 12th 2009 6:02am by Choobacka
Quote:
I've done the math and with a fast/fast with each weapon hitting every 1 second you should be doing close to the same dps as a 2hand DK. this is because with both weapons doing a combined 800 damage every second you should be doing more damage than a 2hand user would in 3seconds; about 2400 damage in 3seconds (no crits) to their 1300 damage per swing. add in the crits and you do more. this makes up for the fact that your melee abilities will do less damage. Since most 2hand users use blood they wont have the extra rune refresh rate either.
Math you say? I like math!
I don't see you taking into consideration Hit into this napkin math. The Hit Rating needed for dual-wielding is much more severe than for a single 2-hand weapon (24% and 8% respectively). Taking the DW talent (Nerves of Cold Steel) drops that down to 21% or 688.38 hit rating (32.78 rating per percent miss, source). Compare that to the ease of hitting 263 hit rating for 2-handers which anyone raiding should be very close to, if not over, and you have some problems with your proof.
In addition: The 15% increased off-hand damage from the skill only applies to your off-hand weapon and doesn't make up for the global off-hand damage penalty (50% of tool tip).
Also of note: Many of our abilities are based on a percentage of weapon damage plus something per disease (Oblit and every Strike). These calculate from the median of main-hand weapon damage and not from any combination of two when dual-wielding. Advantage: 2-handers.
Serious dual-wielding specs can be very competitive in a raiding environment, sure. But the successful builds are always based around weapon independent damage abilities (I love you Howling Blast) and proc-based attacks (Blood Caked Blade, etc). Their power doesn't come from, as you suggest, their auto-attack (aka "white damage"). It's via this other stuff where the DWers shine.
Maybe I'm just nit-picking. But I wanted to clarify some of the points brought up in your post.
Oh, and if you find some iLevel 213+, 1.0 speed weapons please share!!! =)
Well, I went ahead and started a proof just to see. Oh, insomnia, what would I do without you.... errrr.... other than sleep of course.
But seeing as how the neighbors are up and already in their yard and my coffee is just the right mix, let's see about this DW vs. 2-hander stuff!
Please excuse any grammatical or syntax errors (I'm trying to proof-read it, really!). If anyone finds mathematical or logical errors please let me know and I'll adjust accordingly. I did this in text without a spreadsheet and only my trusty desk calc to aid me! Wow... that was a dumb thing to do.... anyway....
WARNING: Wall of text and math incoming!!!
Assuming equal item level weapons.... let's compare dual Hailstorms to a single Jawbone over 1 min of uninterrupted combat where we're just auto-attacking. Boring, I know, but it's just to see the math. Both weapons are fairly common iLevel 213 drops and a minute is an easy division. Below we're assuming a mediocre hit rating of 300 for the dualer and hit cap for the 2-hander. Easy assumptions given the iLevel of gear.
Hailstorm main hand median tool tip damage 235, 1.5 speed, miss rate 12% = 35.2 hits for 8272
Hailstorm off hand median tool tip damage 135.125, 1.5 speed, miss rate 12% = 35.2 hits for 4756.4
Total for the swingin' machine: 13028.4 over 60 seconds of auto-attack.
that's 60 seconds divided by 1.5 for 40 possible hits of which 12% will miss
Jawbone median tool tip damage 733, 3.6 speed, miss rate 0% = 16.66 hits for 12211 over 60 seconds of auto-attack.
same method as above
Well, hell, that's pretty sweet! Better start working on some hit gear and new swords to get these hawt numbers!
While I wait for my raid group to form up a Mally run though... I wonder what would happen if we calculated reasonable approximations of a standard attack cycle (numbers below are roughly adjusted for talents but not AP scaling for convenience, AP favors 2-handers generally. The intention here is to compare raw base numbers)... One rune cycle for a 0/32/39 DK would give us:
So... well.. yeah.... 2-hander wins after all. Guess I should call off that Mally raid.
Ok, so I didn't calculate critical strikes or AP scaling and the numbers above are only extra-fancy napkin math really. So sue me. Not sure I have it in me to do a full mathematical model of the two builds (32/39 can go both 2-hander and DW) just now. I'm not quite that smart anyway. The numbers above, while rough, show a fair comparative analysis of raw data between the two weapons I think. But I would encourage everyone to grab a calculator and see what they come up with.
What we would really need is an even playing field pair of WWS parses for both 2-hand and DW in equitable gear. But.... who has the time for that?
Thanks for tolerating my nonsense. On-topic feedback and discussion are encouraged.
Cheers.
But seeing as how the neighbors are up and already in their yard and my coffee is just the right mix, let's see about this DW vs. 2-hander stuff!
Please excuse any grammatical or syntax errors (I'm trying to proof-read it, really!). If anyone finds mathematical or logical errors please let me know and I'll adjust accordingly. I did this in text without a spreadsheet and only my trusty desk calc to aid me! Wow... that was a dumb thing to do.... anyway....
WARNING: Wall of text and math incoming!!!
Assuming equal item level weapons.... let's compare dual Hailstorms to a single Jawbone over 1 min of uninterrupted combat where we're just auto-attacking. Boring, I know, but it's just to see the math. Both weapons are fairly common iLevel 213 drops and a minute is an easy division. Below we're assuming a mediocre hit rating of 300 for the dualer and hit cap for the 2-hander. Easy assumptions given the iLevel of gear.
Hailstorm main hand median tool tip damage 235, 1.5 speed, miss rate 12% = 35.2 hits for 8272
Hailstorm off hand median tool tip damage 135.125, 1.5 speed, miss rate 12% = 35.2 hits for 4756.4
Total for the swingin' machine: 13028.4 over 60 seconds of auto-attack.
that's 60 seconds divided by 1.5 for 40 possible hits of which 12% will miss
Jawbone median tool tip damage 733, 3.6 speed, miss rate 0% = 16.66 hits for 12211 over 60 seconds of auto-attack.
same method as above
Well, hell, that's pretty sweet! Better start working on some hit gear and new swords to get these hawt numbers!
While I wait for my raid group to form up a Mally run though... I wonder what would happen if we calculated reasonable approximations of a standard attack cycle (numbers below are roughly adjusted for talents but not AP scaling for convenience, AP favors 2-handers generally. The intention here is to compare raw base numbers)... One rune cycle for a 0/32/39 DK would give us:
Hailstorm Jawbone Icy Touch 330 330 Plague Strike 117.5 + 189 = 306.5 366.5 + 189 = 555.5 Obliterate 235 + 292 + (292) = 819 733 + 292 + (292) = 1317 Blood Strike 94 + 191 + 191 = 476 293.2 + 191 + 191 = 675.2 Blood Strike 94 + 191 + 191 = 476 293.2 + 191 + 191 = 675.2 Death Coil 509.45 509.45 Death Coil 509.45 509.45 Ability total 3426.4 4571.8 Auto attack total for 10 seconds 2171 2035 Necrosis bonus 261.37 244.22 Blood-caked 5.9 * 73.43 = 433.28 2.77 * 229 = 634.5 Final Total 6292.05 7485.52
So... well.. yeah.... 2-hander wins after all. Guess I should call off that Mally raid.
Ok, so I didn't calculate critical strikes or AP scaling and the numbers above are only extra-fancy napkin math really. So sue me. Not sure I have it in me to do a full mathematical model of the two builds (32/39 can go both 2-hander and DW) just now. I'm not quite that smart anyway. The numbers above, while rough, show a fair comparative analysis of raw data between the two weapons I think. But I would encourage everyone to grab a calculator and see what they come up with.
What we would really need is an even playing field pair of WWS parses for both 2-hand and DW in equitable gear. But.... who has the time for that?
Thanks for tolerating my nonsense. On-topic feedback and discussion are encouraged.
Cheers.
10 posts
Quote:
Oh, and if you find some iLevel 213+, 1.0 speed weapons please share!!! =)
I use Hatestrike and Maexxna's Feamer and with my haste + Icy talons it comes to 1.01 speed so ya its around 1second my hit rating is to the point where i miss maybe 5% of my swings. So my math is pretty correct but until the patch comes i have no way of proving anything will work.
R.I.P howling blast =(
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I use Hatestrike and Maexxna's Feamer and with my haste + Icy talons it comes to 1.01 speed so ya its around 1second my hit rating is to the point where i miss maybe 5% of my swings. So my math is pretty correct but until the patch comes i have no way of proving anything will work.
If my above didn't tip ya off, I'm a stickler for proofing the math behind statements like this. Things like "maybe 5%" need proof in any serious discussion about min/maxing. Do you have a reliable combat log parse like WWS to show this statement to be true?
The reason I ask: Your armory shows 199 hit rating so I find it hard to believe that you are down to 5% miss (not counting dodges/parries). If you are, I'd love to figure out how. Quick math shows you should be around 11% miss without raid buffs. Also: Your haste rating is only 287 which brings your swings to 1.22 sec. for the 20 sec. that Talons are in effect (8.76% haste from rating + 15% from talons) and 1.45 sec. when not in effect.
So, not trying to be a jerk or anything but you should check your math before posting in a forum with a number of theorycrafters in it. =)
Cheers.
*Edit: Also Chooie, drop that Sigil. Grab the one from the PvP daily in Grizzly Hills. And I can't believe you didn't take Bone Shield but have Night of the Dead! You might want to consider switching those points.
Edited, Mar 12th 2009 1:32pm by TherionSaysWhat
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