here's a question that shoulda been asked 3 yrs ago: does any other class have a race-specific attack like pallies do? i'm not talking CC or other odd abilities, just dmg dealing.
Exorcism and Holy Wrath have been in our books as long as i can remember. they have always been specific to Undeads and Demons(this was added later?). these spells were powerful stuff in Strat, later in Kara, then on to Naxx. it kinda makes sense for pallies to be the vanquishers of the unholy, but from a mechanics and lore perspective keeping these spells Undead/Demon specific doesn't make sense. if you are going to blast the area with Holy dmg, it should hit everthing around it.
they took the right step in making Exorcism more general. the next move needs to be Holy Wrath. an increased effectiveness to Undead only makes further sense for these spells. the talent Crusade also needs some love. Hunters have a talent similar to this yet it includes 7 enemy types to our 4.
im interested to know if any other classes have this odd race-specific focus that pallies do. if my rogue can make a robot bleed, my pally should be able to zap a bad guy with Holy power.
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They were really intended as flavour, rather than as stock abilities. It may seem absurd from a mechanical perspective, but a paladin in an RPG with no special anti-undead attacks is a lame paladin. The whole lore behind Holy energy is that it isn't usually offensively oriented except against undead, like Holy Light in WC3. They added the demon thing I think in BC, because demons were much more present in the expansion. And technically, every time you cast a Judgment you're zapping someone with Holy energy, so it's not like there's any inherent contradiction.
There's a few others. Rogues have a talent that gives +% damage against humanoids, hunters have something similar. Not sure if there are any offensive incarnations. Mechanicals and elementals were originally immune to bleed effects, and elementals were immune to poison until very late in BC. Those two things crippled muti raiding for a quite a while.
The main reason I'm iffy about making Holy Wrath general-target is because of the stun. A powerful instant-cast AOE with a 3 second stun is balanced when you can only use it in rare PvE scenarios, but broadening it...well, besides the balancing issue, it presents me with another button that I have to fit in all the time to remain competitive. I'm already iffy about the Exorcism buff because even though it's a buff, it means I have to fit Exorcism on my key setup. And it gets factored in when they balance our DPS.
Frankly, I thought it was awesome enough that they removed the cast time on HW. It made it useful for tanking. I don't want to see it get "buffed" into affecting all targets at the exchange of a damage reduction and no stun.
There's a few others. Rogues have a talent that gives +% damage against humanoids, hunters have something similar. Not sure if there are any offensive incarnations. Mechanicals and elementals were originally immune to bleed effects, and elementals were immune to poison until very late in BC. Those two things crippled muti raiding for a quite a while.
The main reason I'm iffy about making Holy Wrath general-target is because of the stun. A powerful instant-cast AOE with a 3 second stun is balanced when you can only use it in rare PvE scenarios, but broadening it...well, besides the balancing issue, it presents me with another button that I have to fit in all the time to remain competitive. I'm already iffy about the Exorcism buff because even though it's a buff, it means I have to fit Exorcism on my key setup. And it gets factored in when they balance our DPS.
Frankly, I thought it was awesome enough that they removed the cast time on HW. It made it useful for tanking. I don't want to see it get "buffed" into affecting all targets at the exchange of a damage reduction and no stun.
While at the same time, abilities like consecration will hit anyone -- even the immaculate high-priest of godknowswhat if they decide to cross you. Exorcism being able to target more types of mobs is not neccessarily a bad thing even from a roleplaying perspective. Everyone has a little evil in them I suppose.
As for Holy Wrath. I agree that it WOULD be unbalanced IF Warriors didnt already have a powerful AoE stun that can target every type of mob. No, I don't criticize the idea of someday getting a universally targetable Holy Wrath for being unbalanced, I only criticize it because I don't want to see all of the tanking classes become the same. Even then, that's the one thing I wouldn't mind seeing as a similarity between us. But then from a DPS perspective perhaps it would be OP. I mean, four Paladins of any type could keep a pack of mobs locked down for a pretty good amount of time. It's not like you'd have four PROTECTION Warriors Shockwaving though. Baseline vs. Talented -- and therein lies the rub.
A glyph wouldn't solve the problem, since that's accessible to any spec as well. No, all I can see is a Protection talent that unlocks Holy Wrath to more target types.
As for Holy Wrath. I agree that it WOULD be unbalanced IF Warriors didnt already have a powerful AoE stun that can target every type of mob. No, I don't criticize the idea of someday getting a universally targetable Holy Wrath for being unbalanced, I only criticize it because I don't want to see all of the tanking classes become the same. Even then, that's the one thing I wouldn't mind seeing as a similarity between us. But then from a DPS perspective perhaps it would be OP. I mean, four Paladins of any type could keep a pack of mobs locked down for a pretty good amount of time. It's not like you'd have four PROTECTION Warriors Shockwaving though. Baseline vs. Talented -- and therein lies the rub.
A glyph wouldn't solve the problem, since that's accessible to any spec as well. No, all I can see is a Protection talent that unlocks Holy Wrath to more target types.
Not only do other classes possess stronger/more useful AoE stuns but also you could consider the following.
Exorcism deals 50% MORE to undead
Holy Wrath deals damage to all, 25% MORE to undead with 2 sec stun to normal, 4 sec to undead?
Exorcism deals 50% MORE to undead
Holy Wrath deals damage to all, 25% MORE to undead with 2 sec stun to normal, 4 sec to undead?
first off, there are no doubt going to remove the stun glyph to exorcism. the dmg to all and the double dmg to undead is right on.
a change i would make to holy wrath is similar. cause normal dmg to all and cause same dmg to undead but with the 2 sec stun.
this would keep the spells unique to pallies while making them fit the grand scheme. it says "hey, i deal Holy dmg to everything but undeads feel it worse."
making an exorcism change now w/o changing wrath is retarded from a lore perspective. it says "hey, i spent the last 4yrs using this only on undeads, why dont i use it on regular people too."
thats like dog-whistles all of a sudden being used on people as well.
a change i would make to holy wrath is similar. cause normal dmg to all and cause same dmg to undead but with the 2 sec stun.
this would keep the spells unique to pallies while making them fit the grand scheme. it says "hey, i deal Holy dmg to everything but undeads feel it worse."
making an exorcism change now w/o changing wrath is retarded from a lore perspective. it says "hey, i spent the last 4yrs using this only on undeads, why dont i use it on regular people too."
thats like dog-whistles all of a sudden being used on people as well.
Obviously would need a complete new set of itemization (or take hunter/eleshaman gear) but hmm, with the changes to exorcism and holy wrath coming something in my head makes me think shockadin. Dunno just throwing it out there.
KaboomIRRet wrote:
Obviously would need a complete new set of itemization (or take hunter/eleshaman gear) but hmm, with the changes to exorcism and holy wrath coming something in my head makes me think shockadin. Dunno just throwing it out there.
With spellpower the way it is right now, there's literally no such thing as a shockadin any more. A shockadin is just a holy paladin, and they still suck.
zepoodle wrote:
KaboomIRRet wrote:
Obviously would need a complete new set of itemization (or take hunter/eleshaman gear) but hmm, with the changes to exorcism and holy wrath coming something in my head makes me think shockadin. Dunno just throwing it out there.
With spellpower the way it is right now, there's literally no such thing as a shockadin any more. A shockadin is just a holy paladin, and they still suck.
- HOW DARE YOU!?
Holy pallies are cool btw, they don't suck at all.
SamwiseTheBrave wrote:
Holy pallies are cool btw, they don't suck at all.
This guy gets heals. zepoodle can go die, even if he doesn't stand in fires.
zepoodle wrote:
With spellpower the way it is right now, there's literally no such thing as a shockadin any more. A shockadin is just a holy paladin, and they still suck.
I'm going to assume that you were talking about Shockadins specifically sucking as DPS, not Holy Paladins sucking in general. If so, I'd completely agree with you. Otherwise, we're going to have to have some words.
Respecced my paladin to Holy two days ago (wanted an alt that can do something my warrior can't), and it's been INSANELY fun. Except for the 66 Prot pally in Blood Furnace. He shortened my lifespan and made me invent new and exciting profanity that I can't post in a public forum.
OT rant: If you're prot, and you don't use BoSanc (which you have), don't use Holy Shield (which you have), don't even have Touched by the Light or 1H Weapon specialization, do have Divine Guardian (and bubble during hard pulls), and somehow have room for Blessing of Kings 5/5 WHICH YOU DON'T EVEN PUT ON THE DKs WHO ONLY HAVE A BLESSING FROM YOUR PALADIN HEALER ... /explode.
Am I the only one who realizes (hopefully this is correct =P) that the meaning was "Shockadins still suck" not "Holy Paladins still suck" (remember, we're referencing DPS)? >.>
Edited, Feb 22nd 2009 11:36pm by Maulgak
Edited, Feb 22nd 2009 11:36pm by Maulgak
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