Is that Fair?Follow

The DKP system is harsh but completly fair, I started raiding with new guild and got within the top 3 dps for Noth.
I lost the Sinners Bindings to a rogue who had higher dkp and was in full hateful gear, which was pretty annoying.

Just grind DKP and ninja the bow that drops from Kel. ;)

If the system is there...its there... you can't be "okay" with it and accept it as is then complain about it. If you don't like it raid with people who use another system.


Believe it or not the stats on a weapon are just as important to a hunter as a rogue. Just because they aren't physically hitting people with the item it doesn't take away from its usefulness.

Attack power, agility, crit, stamina, armor penetration, haste, etc, etc, etc all effect the hunters DPS just as it would effect a rogue. Get more of it...better performance.

Just because they use it as a stat stick rather than to poke people with it doesn't negate its sheer usefulness to a hunter.

The stats simply translate into their bow ranged weapon rather than the usage of their melee weapon(s).

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 2:41am by ekaterinodar

Fair or not, it's a little silly to give a dagger to a Hunter over a Rogue. Hunters have a vastly superior choice of weapons compared to Rogues and while I can't recall the BiS weapon for Hunters, I'm pretty sure it isn't Webbed Death (which is BiS for all Rogue specs). Especially when they're only taking it as a filler weapon (the only reason I could ever think of any hunter taking any dagger period) compared to the Rogue who would never replace it until a new raid comes out.

That's part of what I dislike about DKP systems. You're likely to run into situations where people take items they don't really need, let alone want, but since they have the points for it they can take it away from someone who can get vastly superior use out of it. I've seen people take tier pieces and literally say before hand that they wouldn't actually use it, but they liked how it looked and yet they were still given the item because "they had the most points". And that's with every other person who could have bid on it seriously needing it.

But some people like DKP systems and can run them fairly, so more power to them. You just wont catch me taking part in one.

It's fair in the overall concept, but they need to classify Weapons in a different way for certain classes.

A melee weapon for hunters falls into the same category as a ranged weapon for rogues and warriors. They are used for stat boosts more than the tooltip DPS of the weapon. As such, the rules of regular gear should apply to hunters for melee weapons and rogues/warriors for ranged weapons.

Where, when a ranged weapon drops, the hunters get priority in costing 6 DKP, and the guildy with the highest DKP gets it. If no hunters show interest, then the warriors and rogues can bid on said item.

But that's just my opinion, you should talk to your GMs about this if you feel slighted. Don't be confrontational about it, be civil, talk to them with a clear understanding of why you are upset and why you think it should change.

If they change the rules on weapons, great. If not, don't get mad, just take it for what it is. Then decide if you want to continue on or with the guild or move on to another guild. Depending on if you can live with their decision or not.

That really sucks. But if those are the rules then thats that. I'm glad my guild uses loot concil, and there pretty fair about it. I got loot pretty early, sure I won't get everything I want right away, but I will get loot. We did have a hunter get that loot over a rogue once too though, they said it was a mistake afterwards, and would not do that again. There are so many other weapons that drop that hunters can use, no sence in taking one of the VERY FEW we rogues can use.

I don't have much to add, but I just want to say



QFT. I completely agree with that.

Wasn't there a thread about 10 ways to make a fail guild involving DKP. I don't agree with DKP and I don't see where it really is needed with WOW. IF you have to give people DKP to get them to raid they are not worth having. Every dungeon/raid pretty much has something for everybody. Even if there is no upgrades there is the emblems.

My biggest problem with DKP is if your new to a old guild you won't get loot unless nobody else wants it. My advice is find another guild. There are plenty of guilds that raid that doesn't require DKP.

There are hundreds, yes hundreds, of different DKP systems. They all vary, just like a druid can vary in its roles of tank, heals, and dps.

There are systems where even a new member to an old guild can obtain loot priority. It just varies on your DKP system, which should be built around what you want to achieve. They can be fair for everyone involved. They can also be biased towards certain members etc.

I really don't think there's a straight answer to that question. Is this someone you are going to be playing with a lot going forward?

Really, by all rights you could probably roll on it, you have tenure. I would probably pass it off to them myself though, mostly because I firmly believe that in this game you get back what you give in spades. What you lose out in a few dps for a while is made up in a reputation as a great person to run with. It's always worked for me.

Paying someone 3k gold to pass you an item that should be yours (from a logical, completely reasonable standpoint) anyway is just silly. Spec should be just as important as points in situations like this to prevent people from being retarded.

What's silly is I get the feeling that people who would readily give a Hunter a dagger over a Rogue just because "he has more points" would probably pitch a fit if a Rogue tried to take a bow or gun over a Hunter.

I think this is a big issue, loot systems that the guild doesn't okay. I mean if you are in a guild you should, for the most part, be interested in progression as a whole. Especially in a 25-man group where you will more than likely have a static core player base.

If you are in a guild where you do not agree with the loot system for a legit reason, talk to your guild leader. If he shrugs it off and says STFU then you need to think about applying elsewhere.

Ideally loot issues should never cause drama, ideally. However they do, the difference between big trouble drama and a little bit of but hurt makes or breaks a guild. I mean if I and another rogue in the group roll on dawnwalkers lets say. If he wins the roll but I have a blue in slot then the "right" thing to do would be to pass. I mean it kinda sucks for that rogue, but overall it helps us on a guild level to raise our DPS.

You will always run into loot whores, you just need to shrug them off and know that you are trying to help the guild on a whole. That I believe is the fairest things can get in a guild loot system.

And as a little QQ, I really dislike DKP. Seems like an awful way to run a loot system in a guild, especially with loot pinata bosses atm. I suggest a roll based system with blues over epics and class divided gear. Sure a hunter can wear leather but is that item actually right for him, or is it a rogue item. We just split all the items up recently and it has helped tremendously because our RL can call out class/spec instead of just the item name. We then know who can roll and who has to wait for a pass to offspec.

Like this?



Anyway...

DKP systems aren't bad by intent. They just start to suck when the system doesn't differentiate between things like main-spec, off-spec, and class. If a dagger drops you shouldn't immediately give it to a Hunter. If a gun drops, you shouldn't immediately give it to a Rogue or Warrior. If a tanking sword drops, you shouldn't just hand it to a Rogue because he likes the DPS on it and he happens to have the most points. The list goes on and on. I wouldn't stay in a Guild that flat out left it to points because that suggests the leadership is a little too lazy to put effort into distributing loot and it's only a matter of time before you run in to real drama.

My Guild personally does a roll-based system. In 10-man it's one loot per boss and 1 tier token per run. In 25-man it's two epics per run and one tier per run, off-spec rolls being unlimited. Main-spec roll > Off-spec roll > DE for Guild bank.

I'm also biased towards points because back when I played FFXI I was the officer in charge of keeping track of Dynamis points, and the zones supported 32-64 people... you can imagine how fun that was to keep track of who was in the zone, when each person earned a new point, and keeping track of item bids all at the same time while usually acting as main-assist for kill order. Good times, man...