Trying to figure out some specifics on Psychic Scream.
Surprisingly, I had a hard time finding information on Elitist Jerks. I found some info on Wowwiki, but I'm a bit confused by it, largely because I play very little in the way of offense and I've never really looked into these mechanics before.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Magical_resistance
I know the game runs a check every time you cast a spell on something called the Spell Miss Chance. Something level higher has an innate chance to cause your spell to Miss. The higher the enemy, the higher the chance starting off at a mere 4% Miss Chance on things your same level and ending in neigh impossible to hit. You counteract this with Spell Hit, but this chance can never go below 1%. Meaning if I wanted to Psychic Scream a level 1 sheep, I'd still have that 1% chance to miss no matter how much Spell Hit I piled on.
I can follow that much. I think?
What I'm not so clear on is regarding Resistance. This is a check the game runs after your spell has hit to determine how effective it is, and is counteracted with Spell Penetration. A mob a level higher than you has a natural 8 resistance to your spells. But on top of that, players and mobs can have resistances to specific schools of magic. Wowwiki mentions something called "average resistance" applies to spells with a non-damaging effects. Which if I'm reading this right acts as a second Spell Miss Chance, or do they mean to say only the first Spell Miss Chance applies and Resistance isn't even considered? If the resistance check really is non-existent or just a hit-or-miss check, then why do I occasionally see a short Psychic Scream? If the resistance check is exsistent; if you wanted to increase the effectiveness of Psychic Scream in PvE and PvP, would you favor Spell Hit or Spell Penetration?
And just confirming,
Shadow Focus = Hit?
So in theory because Psychic Scream is in the Shadow school, Shadow Focus would reduce the likelihood of a Miss?
Edited, Feb 14th 2009 3:21am by Zemzelette
Edited, Feb 14th 2009 3:22am by Zemzelette
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Psychic Scream / Spell Hit or Spell Penetration?Follow
One thing I can tell you for sure is that you can now reach a 100% chance to hit. The old 99% cap has been removed in 3.0.2
Penetration is straightforward. Assuming you have 100% chance to hit, and your target has 54 resistance (like from a druids MotW without any racials), you'd need exactly 54 penetration to completely negate that resistance. PS is obviously a binary spell which is either fully resisted or not at all.
But even then you'd still be facing things like fear resistance from items, talents, gems, and whatnot, and I am pretty sure that this would be completely unaffected by spell penetration.
Yes
Penetration is straightforward. Assuming you have 100% chance to hit, and your target has 54 resistance (like from a druids MotW without any racials), you'd need exactly 54 penetration to completely negate that resistance. PS is obviously a binary spell which is either fully resisted or not at all.
But even then you'd still be facing things like fear resistance from items, talents, gems, and whatnot, and I am pretty sure that this would be completely unaffected by spell penetration.
Quote:
Shadow Focus = Hit?
So in theory because Psychic Scream is in the Shadow school, Shadow Focus would reduce the likelihood of a Miss?
So in theory because Psychic Scream is in the Shadow school, Shadow Focus would reduce the likelihood of a Miss?
Yes
A very long but interesting post, to which I can give you a very short answer;
Because Psychic Scream as a small chance to break on damage.
Quote:
If the resistance check really is non-existent or just a hit-or-miss check, then why do I occasionally see a short Psychic Scream?
Because Psychic Scream as a small chance to break on damage.
Thanks for the responses folks.
Ah interesting, 100% is possible. I guess Wowwiki is a bit behind the times.
I guess we are looking at two separate "chance to miss" checks. One dependent on Level, and one dependent on Resistance.
So if my target has 54 resistance, and I have 20 Penetration, are we looking at a 34% chance to miss?
What's this (Target's Resistance / (Caster's Level * 5)) * 0.75 = Average Resistance
formula then? Is it another outdated mechanic?
Ah, that makes sense.
The chances must be pretty slim, though. I've been favoring Psychic Scream over PW:S while leveling up whereever there wasn't a risk of linking, and it hasn't happened enough for me to make a correlation between how long the mobs runs and my nuke-tastic ways.
(Or I could just be oblivious)
Any idea what exactly that chance's % is?
Edited, Feb 14th 2009 3:44pm by Zemzelette
Ah interesting, 100% is possible. I guess Wowwiki is a bit behind the times.
I guess we are looking at two separate "chance to miss" checks. One dependent on Level, and one dependent on Resistance.
So if my target has 54 resistance, and I have 20 Penetration, are we looking at a 34% chance to miss?
What's this (Target's Resistance / (Caster's Level * 5)) * 0.75 = Average Resistance
formula then? Is it another outdated mechanic?
Quote:
Because Psychic Scream as a small chance to break on damage.
Ah, that makes sense.
The chances must be pretty slim, though. I've been favoring Psychic Scream over PW:S while leveling up whereever there wasn't a risk of linking, and it hasn't happened enough for me to make a correlation between how long the mobs runs and my nuke-tastic ways.
(Or I could just be oblivious)
Any idea what exactly that chance's % is?
Edited, Feb 14th 2009 3:44pm by Zemzelette
Quote:
Penetration is straightforward. Assuming you have 100% chance to hit, and your target has 54 resistance (like from a druids MotW without any racials), you'd need exactly 54 penetration to completely negate that resistance. PS is obviously a binary spell which is either fully resisted or not at all.
Spell hit and penetration are two different mechanics, and have little to do with one another.
Penetration is only for resistances, such as that from Mark of the Wild or Prayer of Shadow Protection. If your target has 130 resistance, then you need 130 penetration. It does not matter what your target's level is.
Spell hit is a little more complicated, and the WOW Wiki explains it well. Hit can determine how well your spell works, or whether or not you miss your target. Of course, if your target has resistances, then some more of the damage is mitigated, but you would have to read about hit to determine which roll is made first.
Your hit rating affects spells like Psychic Scream and Shackle Undead.
Edited, Feb 14th 2009 6:38pm by sederix
I always think I get it.
Then I read more, and realize how very little I actually do.
Resistance page makes it seem as though the success of a binary spells follows this formula:
and goes on to say: "Example: With 300 effective resistance vs. a level 83 caster, this formula yields 75 * 300 / (83 * 5) = 54.2%. This means that an average of 54.2% damage will be mitigated and binary spells have 54.2% less chance to hit."
But the Spell Hit page gives a formula more like Kanngarnix was saying:
and goes on to say: "For example, a caster with 6% increased chance to hit, attacking a mob 3 levels higher (83% base chance) that has enough resistance to mitigate 50% of spell damage, the overall chance to hit with a binary spell is 44.5%
(83% + 6%) * 50% = 44.5%"
:::bangs her head on a nearby table:::
AUGH! What?
At first glance it appears these two very different formulae are professing to determine the same thing. One saying your ability to absorb damage is directly equal to your ability to dodge binary spells, and the other claiming it's not. So maybe they're used in conjunction, the first formula helps to determine the Resistance % used in the second formula. But, whisky tango foxtrot, this just does not compute.
Let's say I'm level 80 with + 200 Hit Rating trying to Psychic Scream a Level 80 with 130 Shadow Resistance. My Base Spell Hit % determined by level is 96% because we're both the same level. My % Hit Chance is around 7 because at level 80, 26 Hit Rating = 1% Hit Chance.
Meaning the Spell hit Formula so far looks like so:
Well, if we use the first formula to determine the Target's Resistance % (if that's what it does?) and plug it into the second:
A Target with a 24% resistance has a 76% chance to dodge your binary spells?
Note that the higher my target's resistance is, the higher my chances are to hit.
1.03 * .50 = .51 = if my target's Resistance % is 50 up from 24, I have a 51% chance to hit up from 24.
I -uh...buh?
I know it's been a while since highschool. But I'd like to think I can still do basic algebra. But I just can't seem to make logic and math jive here. I've got to be making a stupid mistake here somewhere, I just can't figure out where.
Then I read more, and realize how very little I actually do.
Resistance page makes it seem as though the success of a binary spells follows this formula:
Quote:
Damage reduction percentage = 75 % * effective resistance rating / ( caster level * 5 )
and goes on to say: "Example: With 300 effective resistance vs. a level 83 caster, this formula yields 75 * 300 / (83 * 5) = 54.2%. This means that an average of 54.2% damage will be mitigated and binary spells have 54.2% less chance to hit."
But the Spell Hit page gives a formula more like Kanngarnix was saying:
Quote:
(B + H) * R. For the formula, B is base chance to hit with spells, H is increased chance to hit from gear and talents, and R is the mitigation factor given from resistance.
and goes on to say: "For example, a caster with 6% increased chance to hit, attacking a mob 3 levels higher (83% base chance) that has enough resistance to mitigate 50% of spell damage, the overall chance to hit with a binary spell is 44.5%
(83% + 6%) * 50% = 44.5%"
:::bangs her head on a nearby table:::
AUGH! What?
At first glance it appears these two very different formulae are professing to determine the same thing. One saying your ability to absorb damage is directly equal to your ability to dodge binary spells, and the other claiming it's not. So maybe they're used in conjunction, the first formula helps to determine the Resistance % used in the second formula. But, whisky tango foxtrot, this just does not compute.
Let's say I'm level 80 with + 200 Hit Rating trying to Psychic Scream a Level 80 with 130 Shadow Resistance. My Base Spell Hit % determined by level is 96% because we're both the same level. My % Hit Chance is around 7 because at level 80, 26 Hit Rating = 1% Hit Chance.
Meaning the Spell hit Formula so far looks like so:
Quote:
(.96 + .07 ) * Target's Resistance % = Chance to hit.
Well, if we use the first formula to determine the Target's Resistance % (if that's what it does?) and plug it into the second:
Quote:
.75 * 130 / (80 * 5) =
.75 * 130 / 400 =
97.5 / 400 = .24375
a 24% resistance.
(.96 + .07) * .24 =
1.03 * .24 = .2472
24% Chance to hit
.75 * 130 / 400 =
97.5 / 400 = .24375
a 24% resistance.
(.96 + .07) * .24 =
1.03 * .24 = .2472
24% Chance to hit
A Target with a 24% resistance has a 76% chance to dodge your binary spells?
Note that the higher my target's resistance is, the higher my chances are to hit.
1.03 * .50 = .51 = if my target's Resistance % is 50 up from 24, I have a 51% chance to hit up from 24.
I -uh...buh?
I know it's been a while since highschool. But I'd like to think I can still do basic algebra. But I just can't seem to make logic and math jive here. I've got to be making a stupid mistake here somewhere, I just can't figure out where.
I think you're just messing up hit and miss and what's done to whom (or not)
Somebody with a 24% resistance (as you calculated from the formulas) would have a 24% chance to be missed by your spells, with you of course having a 76% chance to hit with them.
So in order to overcome that resistance you'd either increase your hit rating to gain an extra 24% chance to hit, or you'd do the only feasible thing and reduce the resistance through penetration.
Somebody with a 24% resistance (as you calculated from the formulas) would have a 24% chance to be missed by your spells, with you of course having a 76% chance to hit with them.
So in order to overcome that resistance you'd either increase your hit rating to gain an extra 24% chance to hit, or you'd do the only feasible thing and reduce the resistance through penetration.
Ahhh
You're right, Kanngarnix.
That's the only thing that makes sense.
If I understand it right,
You'd need more Hit Rating than God to overcome a 24% Chance to Miss from Resistance. But going the Spell Penetration route you'd only need as much is necessary to overcome any feasible buffs someone might get from other players in PvP. The 4% Spell Miss Chance is largely non-issue on same-level PvP, so Spell Hit is not worth worrying about.
But in PvE, with the exception of some bosses, the only resistance most mobs have is the minor bit that's naturally granted to them for being higher level than you (Which can't be negated by Spell Penetration). So, for PvE you'd want to focus on Spell Hit to overcome the Spell Miss Chance of attacking a mob higher level than you.
Is that right?
A modicum of Spell Hit is still useful in PVP, even for healing priests. Missing 4% of the time may not sound like much, but in practice it’s quite painful. A little spell penetration is also helpful, but stacking it is a mistake. Few of the opponents you’ll face will have much in the way of spell resist beyond their racials, since you’ll probably be dispelling buffs like MotW. (The big exception is when there is a Death Knight with Frost Aura around—some players I know carry swap sets with plenty of spell penetration for those times).
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