I need some help here. One of our little guild's most valued members because of his personalty (and seniority I might add) is having some problems with his paladin.
We had him straightened out at about level 60, fixed his talents, but now that he is 80 it's just a mess. His gear is chaotic, his rotations are next to non-existant. All that while he has his heart in the right place. I think he's trying to be a paladin in the classical sense - the good guy helping out where needed, being able to heal in a pitch, do some damage - those things.
How can we get him there? Is there a way to be a healer without being holy? Somewhat respectable damage without having to memorize complicated rotations?
Nobody cares about his personal damage. We'd bring him just for buffs (if there is something like a "buffadin") but I know he gets frustrated about what he thinks is a lack of contribution.
I really want him in our raid and dungeon groups. I just don't know how...
Suggest some builds, please, along with how you'd actually gear up for it and eventually play it. Our "problem child" is about twice as old as the rest of us (people on this board probably included) so the KISS way would be very much preferred.
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Laughing+Skull&n=Hawara
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Cor you're not wrong. A mish-mash of equipment. Maybe you could position him as holy with a shield and a sword, who can also pick stragglers in dungeons. He neither excels at any trait though and in 5 man HC's the deficiency is going to show.
Is it not possible for you to explain to him that, sadly aside from the traditional paladin lore, 5 man dungeons are (generally) made up of a tank, a header and three DPS? Unless he starts to excel it would be difficult to include him the group?
You may be able to drag him along on raids and a lack of DPS/heals wouldn't make any difference, but in 5 mans, especially HC's, I think you're really going to notice.
Is it not possible for you to explain to him that, sadly aside from the traditional paladin lore, 5 man dungeons are (generally) made up of a tank, a header and three DPS? Unless he starts to excel it would be difficult to include him the group?
You may be able to drag him along on raids and a lack of DPS/heals wouldn't make any difference, but in 5 mans, especially HC's, I think you're really going to notice.
Just a follow up. You could point him to Elitist Jerks and tell him to have a look over the information there. There's a retribution, protection and holy thread. Tell him to read all three and decide which he thinks is most comfortable for him. Then start to look at the kit, enchants and gems to get himself good at that particular role:
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/
Talent chic has a list of popular talent builds listed from the Armory to help him respec when he decides what path he would like:
http://www.talentchic.com/
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/
Talent chic has a list of popular talent builds listed from the Armory to help him respec when he decides what path he would like:
http://www.talentchic.com/
Well...hmmm.
He's got quite the hodge-podge of gear based on what I just saw on the armory. His talents as a ret paladin aren't terrible, but they're not exactly ideal, either :P
Here's the thing: paladins have all the talents/spells/gear options to fill any role in a group and fill it well. If they want to leverage a hybrid role and the people they run with it are ok with it, then there's room for that too.
However, and with no disrespect intended to your guildie, we can't have it all. We can't bring big dps to a group and still gear/spec for better healing. If we've got 71 talent points to spend at level 80, you can't put 58 of them into a dps tree and expect to toss big heals and soak big damage.
That's the nature of the "hybrid tax." If you want to do it all, you can do it all but you won't do any one aspect of it as well as someone who focuses on that aspect. If your guildie wants to do more dps, he needs to gear for it. He's got 125 defense rating and a bunch of caster gear on. He's got a lot of greens, and in the armory I saw he's using a 1h sword and shield as a ret paladin. That simply doesn't work.
Non-heroic dungeons are rather forgiving in WotLK. Heroic dungeons and raids require more specialization. A "properly" specced and geared ret paladin can still offheal in a pinch, but no class is going to be tanking even raid trash for any length of time unless they're properly specced and geared to tank, so one of the first things to go should probably be all of his defense gear. He can bank it in case he decides he wants to tank some lower level dungeons or whatever, but in terms of level 80 content, it's wasted itemization if he's not going to go all the way with it.
He will want to get a good 2h weapon. There are a number of quest/rep reward weapons that would be an enormous improvement over what his armory is currently showing. His 1h sword is not a horrible dps weapon (although it could be much, much better quite easily), but he's got it paired with a caster shield. That shield is only hurting his contribution to a group. Ret paladins get an increase to their spellpower equal to 30% of their attack power. The shield he's wearing gives 34 haste and 16 spellpower. He can do without the haste whether he's trying to dps or heal, and he can get equivalent spellpower from something that gives him 48 attack power on top of what he's got...which he can get from a 2h weapon enchant quite easily.
As I said, his spec isn't horrible. Personally, I'd take the talents out of the holy tree and put them into Kings/Imp. Kings, but they're not going to make or break him. It's his gear that he would really want to focus on. Get rid of all the defense/spellpower gear, replace it with Strength, AP, and crit gear (to include a 2h weapon) and go from there.
He's got quite the hodge-podge of gear based on what I just saw on the armory. His talents as a ret paladin aren't terrible, but they're not exactly ideal, either :P
Here's the thing: paladins have all the talents/spells/gear options to fill any role in a group and fill it well. If they want to leverage a hybrid role and the people they run with it are ok with it, then there's room for that too.
However, and with no disrespect intended to your guildie, we can't have it all. We can't bring big dps to a group and still gear/spec for better healing. If we've got 71 talent points to spend at level 80, you can't put 58 of them into a dps tree and expect to toss big heals and soak big damage.
That's the nature of the "hybrid tax." If you want to do it all, you can do it all but you won't do any one aspect of it as well as someone who focuses on that aspect. If your guildie wants to do more dps, he needs to gear for it. He's got 125 defense rating and a bunch of caster gear on. He's got a lot of greens, and in the armory I saw he's using a 1h sword and shield as a ret paladin. That simply doesn't work.
Non-heroic dungeons are rather forgiving in WotLK. Heroic dungeons and raids require more specialization. A "properly" specced and geared ret paladin can still offheal in a pinch, but no class is going to be tanking even raid trash for any length of time unless they're properly specced and geared to tank, so one of the first things to go should probably be all of his defense gear. He can bank it in case he decides he wants to tank some lower level dungeons or whatever, but in terms of level 80 content, it's wasted itemization if he's not going to go all the way with it.
He will want to get a good 2h weapon. There are a number of quest/rep reward weapons that would be an enormous improvement over what his armory is currently showing. His 1h sword is not a horrible dps weapon (although it could be much, much better quite easily), but he's got it paired with a caster shield. That shield is only hurting his contribution to a group. Ret paladins get an increase to their spellpower equal to 30% of their attack power. The shield he's wearing gives 34 haste and 16 spellpower. He can do without the haste whether he's trying to dps or heal, and he can get equivalent spellpower from something that gives him 48 attack power on top of what he's got...which he can get from a 2h weapon enchant quite easily.
As I said, his spec isn't horrible. Personally, I'd take the talents out of the holy tree and put them into Kings/Imp. Kings, but they're not going to make or break him. It's his gear that he would really want to focus on. Get rid of all the defense/spellpower gear, replace it with Strength, AP, and crit gear (to include a 2h weapon) and go from there.
Well, he does have axe from the amphitheater quest, and I have yet to see him entering a dungeon with sword and board. I don't know what makes him going back to it almost each time he is out doing quests or picking weeds.
One idea was to get him the Brilliant Saronite stuff since it's so easily available. Thought behind that being that a complete healing set will make it less likely for his tendency to mix things up. He'll have something to switch to if he wants to/is asked to do some healing.
There is Savage Saronite to straighten out his DPS gear, though it's focus on PvP seems less than ideal (still better than what he currently has I'd think)
Is there some sort of "fail safe" way to play Ret? Keeping Replenishment up at all times would already be a great addition. There has to be some sort of basic rotation that might not top charts, but keeps dps within viable limits. At least I'd hope so. I certainly wouldn't mind spending some time with him at the dummy.
One idea was to get him the Brilliant Saronite stuff since it's so easily available. Thought behind that being that a complete healing set will make it less likely for his tendency to mix things up. He'll have something to switch to if he wants to/is asked to do some healing.
There is Savage Saronite to straighten out his DPS gear, though it's focus on PvP seems less than ideal (still better than what he currently has I'd think)
Is there some sort of "fail safe" way to play Ret? Keeping Replenishment up at all times would already be a great addition. There has to be some sort of basic rotation that might not top charts, but keeps dps within viable limits. At least I'd hope so. I certainly wouldn't mind spending some time with him at the dummy.
The harsh truth is that to be effective in any capacity you have to decide what you want to do and specialise. Between two dungeons, you can respec and throw a different set of gear on, but as AureliusSir pointed out; you can't fulfill two different roles in one instance run.
He should decide on a main role (let's assume it's Retribution for dps) and put together a decent set of gear for that. After becoming competent in one area start putting together an off-set of gear, perhaps holy or tanking.
Retribution is a very simple spec for doing damage, there are no complexities whatsoever in the rotation. I would use a spec something like this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000001450000000000000000000000052322512033310302135231351
On pulls of 1 to 3 mobs, open on the main target (Marked with a skull probably) with Judgement, then Crusader strike and Divine Storm. Then drop consecrate and just repeat. Exorcism and Holy Wrath can be fired off if the mobs are undead, but the priority at any given time are the bigger hitting moves like Judgement and Crusader Strike. On larger pulls (those clusters of 12 spiders in naxx for example) start with consecrate and divine storm to get as much AoE damage as possible.
Replenishment is triggered by Judgement and lasts 15 seconds, so it will never drop off.
Edit: As for gearing up, there is plenty of BoE blacksmithing gear for ret paladins, including an amazing epic 2-handed mace. Just run normal dungeons until you have blue retribution gear in most slots (focusing on stats like strength, crit rating, agility, hit rating and so on) then start running heroics.
As an aside, retribution pallys end up with surprisingly high spellpower from the sheath of light talent, so he can still throw emergency heals and have plenty of utility in groups.
Edited, Feb 11th 2009 5:50am by ArtemisEnteri
He should decide on a main role (let's assume it's Retribution for dps) and put together a decent set of gear for that. After becoming competent in one area start putting together an off-set of gear, perhaps holy or tanking.
Retribution is a very simple spec for doing damage, there are no complexities whatsoever in the rotation. I would use a spec something like this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000001450000000000000000000000052322512033310302135231351
On pulls of 1 to 3 mobs, open on the main target (Marked with a skull probably) with Judgement, then Crusader strike and Divine Storm. Then drop consecrate and just repeat. Exorcism and Holy Wrath can be fired off if the mobs are undead, but the priority at any given time are the bigger hitting moves like Judgement and Crusader Strike. On larger pulls (those clusters of 12 spiders in naxx for example) start with consecrate and divine storm to get as much AoE damage as possible.
Replenishment is triggered by Judgement and lasts 15 seconds, so it will never drop off.
Edit: As for gearing up, there is plenty of BoE blacksmithing gear for ret paladins, including an amazing epic 2-handed mace. Just run normal dungeons until you have blue retribution gear in most slots (focusing on stats like strength, crit rating, agility, hit rating and so on) then start running heroics.
As an aside, retribution pallys end up with surprisingly high spellpower from the sheath of light talent, so he can still throw emergency heals and have plenty of utility in groups.
Edited, Feb 11th 2009 5:50am by ArtemisEnteri
Well, he wants to be a ret paladin. But someone needs to tell him that in a large group, the specialized healers will be doing most of the healing, and its his job to deal damage.
UNTIL something goes wrong. Ret heal utility is there...you don't have the mana pool for sustained healing, but if you are properly RET itemized, thanks to sheath of light and a few other talents, you can be a very effective short term healer.
Switching roles in an emergency is what makes hybrid classes amazingly useful. And sounds like what he wants to do. Most of the time, your holy priest or resto shaman will be healing the group, and trying to help heal there is a waste of time and dps, and likely to just cause overhealing. But then there are those moments when the tank is about to go down, and a quick LoH can save the group. Or those times when the healer does go down, and taking over as main healer for 30s-1min is enough to save the group and win the fight.
In one of my guild's 10-man naxx attempts, the healer on our side went down halfway through the trash portion of the Gothik fight. Me and the other ret pally took turns acting as main healer...and we kept the tank up, no other deaths, and we took that mother down:)
But a ret should never be in holy gear. Ret mana return comes from judging and divine plea and being healed by others, not from mp5. ret spellpower comes from stacking STR, not int and SP directly. Get him properly PvE ret specced and in some melee dps gear, and his contribution will shoot up, and he'll still be able to heal when he needs to. Have him maintain a holy set; in a good healing set rets can off heal for a full fight without respeccing...i often heal-tank 4 horsemen, for example.
As far as ret pally damage rotations go...there aren't any. Any optimized rotation is impossibly long, 12 cycles or something. So 95%+ of retadins go with the "highest damage off cooldown" rotation. Generally keep concecrate down, judge every time its possible too both for the damage and the mana return, then go DS>CS>Exorsism beyond that. And throw hammer of wrath when its up.
UNTIL something goes wrong. Ret heal utility is there...you don't have the mana pool for sustained healing, but if you are properly RET itemized, thanks to sheath of light and a few other talents, you can be a very effective short term healer.
Switching roles in an emergency is what makes hybrid classes amazingly useful. And sounds like what he wants to do. Most of the time, your holy priest or resto shaman will be healing the group, and trying to help heal there is a waste of time and dps, and likely to just cause overhealing. But then there are those moments when the tank is about to go down, and a quick LoH can save the group. Or those times when the healer does go down, and taking over as main healer for 30s-1min is enough to save the group and win the fight.
In one of my guild's 10-man naxx attempts, the healer on our side went down halfway through the trash portion of the Gothik fight. Me and the other ret pally took turns acting as main healer...and we kept the tank up, no other deaths, and we took that mother down:)
But a ret should never be in holy gear. Ret mana return comes from judging and divine plea and being healed by others, not from mp5. ret spellpower comes from stacking STR, not int and SP directly. Get him properly PvE ret specced and in some melee dps gear, and his contribution will shoot up, and he'll still be able to heal when he needs to. Have him maintain a holy set; in a good healing set rets can off heal for a full fight without respeccing...i often heal-tank 4 horsemen, for example.
As far as ret pally damage rotations go...there aren't any. Any optimized rotation is impossibly long, 12 cycles or something. So 95%+ of retadins go with the "highest damage off cooldown" rotation. Generally keep concecrate down, judge every time its possible too both for the damage and the mana return, then go DS>CS>Exorsism beyond that. And throw hammer of wrath when its up.
I know exactly where your guildmate is coming from. I have the same problems, in that I constantly try to help out the healer during runs even though I am geared for Retri (and quite well geared if I may say so).
I can only reiterate what has been said before me, as Retri it is his job to keep up his aura, his judgement and his consecration.
Tips I have learned in the course of play. If he notices the tank is dropping lower than comfortable then by all means heal him. And feel free to use your instant cast flash of lights on the tank. I set the tank to be my focus so I can hold alt+FoL to give an instant heal to the tank without dropping DPS. And I am usually getting a crit hit every 10 seconds or so, meaning I can use those instant heals regularly. And if everything goes pearshaped, a well timed Lay on Hands can prevent a guaranteed wipe.
Bottom line is to gear for damage and rely on Sheath of Light to boost spellpower enough to make you an efficient backup healer.
I can only reiterate what has been said before me, as Retri it is his job to keep up his aura, his judgement and his consecration.
Tips I have learned in the course of play. If he notices the tank is dropping lower than comfortable then by all means heal him. And feel free to use your instant cast flash of lights on the tank. I set the tank to be my focus so I can hold alt+FoL to give an instant heal to the tank without dropping DPS. And I am usually getting a crit hit every 10 seconds or so, meaning I can use those instant heals regularly. And if everything goes pearshaped, a well timed Lay on Hands can prevent a guaranteed wipe.
Bottom line is to gear for damage and rely on Sheath of Light to boost spellpower enough to make you an efficient backup healer.
This is just my opinion. I could be wrong. (If I am wrong, I’m sure someone will explain… Hahah)
Get rid of the Defense Ring, Chest, and Neck
Not knocking DPS, but if you want to pick an easiest job – DPS is the one job that can lag and not really cause wipes. Crappy healer = dead. Crappy tank = Dead. Crappy DPS ~ you need to pick up his slack. (^ This = Generalization)
IF the rest of your groups are very good – they can compensate. Tell him to start to think of Ret. Paly as a Holy version of a Warrior DPS. He needs to be VERY strong (STR) and have abilities that make him Hit Harder (Attack Power) and more accurately (HIT). I’m not a Ret Paly, but that will get you started. Check out EJ’s forums for the very specific stuff, but stacking STR, AP, HIT can’t be a terrible start.
Get him the 3 pieces of Epic DPS gear. (Spiked Helm and Boots + the 2H mace). Any BS can make it. Cost will be a few 1000. Intra-Guild prices should cut that cost a lot.
Run him through H.UK – get the Plate pants of the last boss. (This instance is SO easy it should be on farm for most guilds.) I’ve PUG’d this with 1200 DPS groups and still done fine. Use the Badge drops to get gear for him.
As you say he’s a nice guy, but generally not such a great player – H.VH might be tough – the random bosses might confuse someone who’s not up on all the boss fights and tactics. But – if he learns them – this should also be farmed. Maybe learn it on Reg?
Also look into farming Nexus. (As his DPS will suck, this might be tough with the final boss having an enrage timer)
IF that is not possible – Farm the 1st boss in HoL. Daily – Drops a nice tank (Shoulders?) for your tank and is reachable in <10 minutes.
Doing JUST some of that. (Let’s say you can gather 5 badges a day…) You’ll be getting him a new belt in <10 days. Get a socket on it – Gem it. Also – Get all that epic gear enchanted..
Remember – Gear does not make a good player, but good gear will help compensate for a bad player. It won’t make him better, but will lessen the impact of his mistakes.
If all else fails and he’s a damage sponge as a DPS, just gear him like a tank and have him DPS that way. I’m pulling 1300 dps on sustained fights – not good DPS, but not something terrible. I’ve DPS’d H. VH and H. UK in that form. He might not do anything right, but he'll take a long time to die :)
Get rid of the Defense Ring, Chest, and Neck
Not knocking DPS, but if you want to pick an easiest job – DPS is the one job that can lag and not really cause wipes. Crappy healer = dead. Crappy tank = Dead. Crappy DPS ~ you need to pick up his slack. (^ This = Generalization)
IF the rest of your groups are very good – they can compensate. Tell him to start to think of Ret. Paly as a Holy version of a Warrior DPS. He needs to be VERY strong (STR) and have abilities that make him Hit Harder (Attack Power) and more accurately (HIT). I’m not a Ret Paly, but that will get you started. Check out EJ’s forums for the very specific stuff, but stacking STR, AP, HIT can’t be a terrible start.
Get him the 3 pieces of Epic DPS gear. (Spiked Helm and Boots + the 2H mace). Any BS can make it. Cost will be a few 1000. Intra-Guild prices should cut that cost a lot.
Run him through H.UK – get the Plate pants of the last boss. (This instance is SO easy it should be on farm for most guilds.) I’ve PUG’d this with 1200 DPS groups and still done fine. Use the Badge drops to get gear for him.
As you say he’s a nice guy, but generally not such a great player – H.VH might be tough – the random bosses might confuse someone who’s not up on all the boss fights and tactics. But – if he learns them – this should also be farmed. Maybe learn it on Reg?
Also look into farming Nexus. (As his DPS will suck, this might be tough with the final boss having an enrage timer)
IF that is not possible – Farm the 1st boss in HoL. Daily – Drops a nice tank (Shoulders?) for your tank and is reachable in <10 minutes.
Doing JUST some of that. (Let’s say you can gather 5 badges a day…) You’ll be getting him a new belt in <10 days. Get a socket on it – Gem it. Also – Get all that epic gear enchanted..
Remember – Gear does not make a good player, but good gear will help compensate for a bad player. It won’t make him better, but will lessen the impact of his mistakes.
If all else fails and he’s a damage sponge as a DPS, just gear him like a tank and have him DPS that way. I’m pulling 1300 dps on sustained fights – not good DPS, but not something terrible. I’ve DPS’d H. VH and H. UK in that form. He might not do anything right, but he'll take a long time to die :)
Kanngarnix wrote:
I need some help here. One of our little guild's most valued members because of his personalty (and seniority I might add) is having some problems with his paladin.
We had him straightened out at about level 60, fixed his talents, but now that he is 80 it's just a mess. His gear is chaotic, his rotations are next to non-existant. All that while he has his heart in the right place. I think he's trying to be a paladin in the classical sense - the good guy helping out where needed, being able to heal in a pitch, do some damage - those things.
How can we get him there? Is there a way to be a healer without being holy? Somewhat respectable damage without having to memorize complicated rotations?
Nobody cares about his personal damage. We'd bring him just for buffs (if there is something like a "buffadin") but I know he gets frustrated about what he thinks is a lack of contribution.
I really want him in our raid and dungeon groups. I just don't know how...
Suggest some builds, please, along with how you'd actually gear up for it and eventually play it. Our "problem child" is about twice as old as the rest of us (people on this board probably included) so the KISS way would be very much preferred.
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Laughing+Skull&n=Hawara
We had him straightened out at about level 60, fixed his talents, but now that he is 80 it's just a mess. His gear is chaotic, his rotations are next to non-existant. All that while he has his heart in the right place. I think he's trying to be a paladin in the classical sense - the good guy helping out where needed, being able to heal in a pitch, do some damage - those things.
How can we get him there? Is there a way to be a healer without being holy? Somewhat respectable damage without having to memorize complicated rotations?
Nobody cares about his personal damage. We'd bring him just for buffs (if there is something like a "buffadin") but I know he gets frustrated about what he thinks is a lack of contribution.
I really want him in our raid and dungeon groups. I just don't know how...
Suggest some builds, please, along with how you'd actually gear up for it and eventually play it. Our "problem child" is about twice as old as the rest of us (people on this board probably included) so the KISS way would be very much preferred.
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Laughing+Skull&n=Hawara
It really isn't hard.
Just give him a cookie-cutter Ret spec, have him use a 2-hander (Titansteel Destroyer if you got the means to get one made), and tell him to do this, in order:
Keep a Seal Up (for simplicity's sake, tell him to use Command, unless Martyr/Blood is better, dunno I only did my Ret up until 78, solo-only)
Judgment.
Consecrate.
Crusader Strike.
Divine Storm.
Hell, tell him to stick those spells on his hotkey; 2, 3, 4, 5 in that order so he knows what order to throw that sh*t in. That way when he opens a fight, he does it in that exact order every time to start the rotation, and then tell him to just spam Judgment/CS/DS; whichever is not on cooldown. The rest should be easy, if you start right.
If he wants to throw out a heal, that's ok. At least he's being somewhat of a value to the group. Of course, you'd have to get ahold of a +hit set, but if you tell him what to wear, it should be OK, right?
The talents and gear shouldn't be a problem; surely someone in the guild is a miner, who can get him his titansteel, do a few heroics (or just buy the damn orbs) for his equipment, etc, etc.
Rotations? Like I said, tell him the correct order to fire his stuff, and then once he fires his initial round, the rest is easy; just hit whatever is not on cooldown. Even if his rotation is slightly off, it is better than him running around with a sword and shield half-holy half-ret half-God-Knows-What, wearing half +SP half DPS gear and contributing very little to the actual group's effort.
Or, teach him how to be a tank. But be advised it will take a little longer to get him geared and if he doesn't have a grasp for it, you will wipe often if he's not talented at tanking.
A "meh" DPS won't wipe a group until/unless you're raiding and start hitting enrage timers, or they aren't avoiding AoEs n'stuff. A "meh" tank definitely can and probably will wipe groups.
Edited, Feb 11th 2009 2:05pm by Zariamnk
Edited, Feb 11th 2009 2:09pm by Zariamnk
If he chose a Paladin for lore reasons and has invested this much time in it, he's going to want to play it out - and when group encounter design is considered, Ret is probably the closest to his ideal. Able to offtank some mobs for a while at least, and capable of throwing out some heals when required, it's the most "Protector of the Faith" spec. Anyway, both healing and tanking are really callings, and if you aren't one of the called, you'll just bring fail to the group with you - much more so than DPS.
My main is Holy, but I respec to Ret on an irregular basis, so I have some experience with the learning curve. My gearing path won't help, though - from 70 I have been collecting all three sets, and picked up the appropriate quest rewards etc. along the way, but this is probably closed to him if he's 80. The AH can provide quick and dirty upgrades, as can guild BS, but both take cash, at least for mats. As another poster said, easy heroics are probably the easy path, as they pay off three ways - drops, badges, and rep rewards. Ten runs could easily fill four slots with drops, supplement with the badge libram and belt, and get exalted with e.g. Argent Crusade for the mace or Ebon Blade for the sword (all depending on where he's at now, of course).
As for playing, cookie cutters are standard for a reason - the "usual suspect" builds work, well enough. Current thinking is that there is no rotation for Ret, instead it's First Come First Served (FCFS) - at any point, use your highest-damage ability that's off cooldown: Judgement > Crusader Strike > Divine Storm. Mix Consecration in somewhere depending on your mana issues, along with Exorcism and/or Holy Wrath for undead.
Seals got much simpler yesterday, as they're now 30-minutes, removing the need to reseal during battles (and to remember to reseal!). Blood/Martyr is best DPS, but it requires healing - it need not be said that paladins don't heal themselves due to Spiritual Attunement being a big part of the Ret/Prot mana battery, so it's primarily a raid seal unless the group is appropriate to allow the healer a few spare cycles to top the DPS off. Command is preferred by many for 5-mans for that reason (me, I think they're wimps who coddle their healers).
Judge Light unless there's a serious need for the mana return of Wisdom. If there's a Holy in the same group, they can do Wisdom or Justice (more to keep their personal haste buff up than for the actual effect of the judgement).
Most of this should be in the FAQ, anyway (everything except for updated gear lists, IIRC). But from personal experience, I know that halfway decent gearing, reasonable execution of FCFS (even if it's only as far as Judge and Crusader Strike), and not standing in the fire will make you, if not necessarily an asset, no longer a liability to the group.
Or point him here for more questions, then to EJ for the advanced course (the post-graduate course being able to figure out if a given EJ contribution is a valuable nugget of information that reveals the underlying nature of the class or just a reasonable-sounding piece of nonsense that will cause you to internalize a fundamental mistake).
My main is Holy, but I respec to Ret on an irregular basis, so I have some experience with the learning curve. My gearing path won't help, though - from 70 I have been collecting all three sets, and picked up the appropriate quest rewards etc. along the way, but this is probably closed to him if he's 80. The AH can provide quick and dirty upgrades, as can guild BS, but both take cash, at least for mats. As another poster said, easy heroics are probably the easy path, as they pay off three ways - drops, badges, and rep rewards. Ten runs could easily fill four slots with drops, supplement with the badge libram and belt, and get exalted with e.g. Argent Crusade for the mace or Ebon Blade for the sword (all depending on where he's at now, of course).
As for playing, cookie cutters are standard for a reason - the "usual suspect" builds work, well enough. Current thinking is that there is no rotation for Ret, instead it's First Come First Served (FCFS) - at any point, use your highest-damage ability that's off cooldown: Judgement > Crusader Strike > Divine Storm. Mix Consecration in somewhere depending on your mana issues, along with Exorcism and/or Holy Wrath for undead.
Seals got much simpler yesterday, as they're now 30-minutes, removing the need to reseal during battles (and to remember to reseal!). Blood/Martyr is best DPS, but it requires healing - it need not be said that paladins don't heal themselves due to Spiritual Attunement being a big part of the Ret/Prot mana battery, so it's primarily a raid seal unless the group is appropriate to allow the healer a few spare cycles to top the DPS off. Command is preferred by many for 5-mans for that reason (me, I think they're wimps who coddle their healers).
Judge Light unless there's a serious need for the mana return of Wisdom. If there's a Holy in the same group, they can do Wisdom or Justice (more to keep their personal haste buff up than for the actual effect of the judgement).
Most of this should be in the FAQ, anyway (everything except for updated gear lists, IIRC). But from personal experience, I know that halfway decent gearing, reasonable execution of FCFS (even if it's only as far as Judge and Crusader Strike), and not standing in the fire will make you, if not necessarily an asset, no longer a liability to the group.
Or point him here for more questions, then to EJ for the advanced course (the post-graduate course being able to figure out if a given EJ contribution is a valuable nugget of information that reveals the underlying nature of the class or just a reasonable-sounding piece of nonsense that will cause you to internalize a fundamental mistake).
You guys were awesome! Rate-ups inc...
I did read FAQs and stickies in half a dozen places, but it was too much information for somebody not actually playing the class. It answered questions I didn't have to begin with, and left many things unanswered because I wasn't interested in maximizing.
This pretty much made me fall off my chair and choke. You have no idea...
The typical conversation at the beginning of an instance:
Him: "What am I gonna do, heal?"
Me: "No! You're gonna beat on the thing marked with a skull until it stops moving"
Him: "OK"
And so we start. I mark, he beats. Then a short break after the first pull.
Me: "I need BoM, not BoW"
Him: "But last time you wanted..."
Me: "Yes, I needed BoW because I was healing with my priest"
Him: "Ah, ok" *starts buffing*
Me: Thanks! Let's cont.. Wait! The mage and the druid still need BoW. THEY don't need AP"
Him: "Ah, ok" *replaces buffs*
And so we continue. I mark, he beats. I guess if there wasn't an end to those dungeons he'd probably chase them evil skulls without ever getting any rest.
He isn't dumb. Just terribly insecure about his position in a group. He doesn't want to f* up and is in fact so eager to do everything right that he ends up standing in his own way.
Exactly what I was looking for. Gonna take him to a dummy and see if we get that done.
There is no holy pally at the moment, but a new tonkadin. Anything important to consider there?
I did read FAQs and stickies in half a dozen places, but it was too much information for somebody not actually playing the class. It answered questions I didn't have to begin with, and left many things unanswered because I wasn't interested in maximizing.
Quote:
If all else fails and he’s a damage sponge as a DPS, just gear him like a tank and have him DPS that way. I’m pulling 1300 dps on sustained fights – not good DPS, but not something terrible. I’ve DPS’d H. VH and H. UK in that form. He might not do anything right, but he'll take a long time to die :)
This pretty much made me fall off my chair and choke. You have no idea...
The typical conversation at the beginning of an instance:
Him: "What am I gonna do, heal?"
Me: "No! You're gonna beat on the thing marked with a skull until it stops moving"
Him: "OK"
And so we start. I mark, he beats. Then a short break after the first pull.
Me: "I need BoM, not BoW"
Him: "But last time you wanted..."
Me: "Yes, I needed BoW because I was healing with my priest"
Him: "Ah, ok" *starts buffing*
Me: Thanks! Let's cont.. Wait! The mage and the druid still need BoW. THEY don't need AP"
Him: "Ah, ok" *replaces buffs*
And so we continue. I mark, he beats. I guess if there wasn't an end to those dungeons he'd probably chase them evil skulls without ever getting any rest.
He isn't dumb. Just terribly insecure about his position in a group. He doesn't want to f* up and is in fact so eager to do everything right that he ends up standing in his own way.
Quote:
Keep a Seal Up (for simplicity's sake, tell him to use Command, unless Martyr/Blood is better, dunno I only did my Ret up until 78, solo-only)
Judgment.
Consecrate.
Crusader Strike.
Divine Storm.
Hell, tell him to stick those spells on his hotkey; 2, 3, 4, 5 in that order so he knows what order to throw that sh*t in. That way when he opens a fight, he does it in that exact order every time to start the rotation, and then tell him to just spam Judgment/CS/DS; whichever is not on cooldown. The rest should be easy, if you start right.
Judgment.
Consecrate.
Crusader Strike.
Divine Storm.
Hell, tell him to stick those spells on his hotkey; 2, 3, 4, 5 in that order so he knows what order to throw that sh*t in. That way when he opens a fight, he does it in that exact order every time to start the rotation, and then tell him to just spam Judgment/CS/DS; whichever is not on cooldown. The rest should be easy, if you start right.
Exactly what I was looking for. Gonna take him to a dummy and see if we get that done.
Quote:
Judge Light unless there's a serious need for the mana return of Wisdom. If there's a Holy in the same group, they can do Wisdom or Justice (more to keep their personal haste buff up than for the actual effect of the judgement).
There is no holy pally at the moment, but a new tonkadin. Anything important to consider there?
Kanngarnix wrote:
Quote:
Judge Light unless there's a serious need for the mana return of Wisdom. If there's a Holy in the same group, they can do Wisdom or Justice (more to keep their personal haste buff up than for the actual effect of the judgement).
There is no holy pally at the moment, but a new tonkadin. Anything important to consider there?
Juggling judgements in a multi-pally raid situation is complex:
- Because JoL scales equally with AP and SP, Ret is usually best for this.
- Because JoW doesn't scale with anything, and it's more useful than Justice, Prot usually does this, and by keeping it up debuffs the target with Judgements of the Just.
- To avoid overwriting a more powerful JoL or a debuffing JoW, Holy is left judging Justice. It also adds a 3% crit debuff with Heart of the Crusader (if Ret didn't have it above) for Holy who branch out into Ret (rather than Prot to get Kings), but if there are multiple overwriting each other, this is the best one to lose.
Rotations is something you can work on to help him increase DPS, as is a decent talent spec. What you want to explain to him though, is that as a DPS, he will do much better killing targets as fast as possible(both solo and in a group setting) than gearing up to take hits/heal himself. Let him know that the faster the targets drop, the less healing or damage mitigation he'll need. Explain to him that the same goes for groups. The better his DPS, the less heals needed by the healer, the less damage the tank will take in the long run, and with it, a higher chance for success.
For every complaint he has, try to show him a way that Ret can take care of it. Dying too much in solo play? He needs to start using AoW procs more, and getting more crit rating will help(but again, not at the cost of getting +SP gear instead of +STR gear). Heals too small to help? More AP will increase his SP, plus mean he needs to heal less as the mobs die quicker.
After that, you just need to teach him what stats will help his DPS the most.
For every complaint he has, try to show him a way that Ret can take care of it. Dying too much in solo play? He needs to start using AoW procs more, and getting more crit rating will help(but again, not at the cost of getting +SP gear instead of +STR gear). Heals too small to help? More AP will increase his SP, plus mean he needs to heal less as the mobs die quicker.
After that, you just need to teach him what stats will help his DPS the most.
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