Good morning -
What are the benefits of a shadow priest having + spell haste ratings on their gear? I read on Dwarf priest that it really doesn't benefit a shadow priest so much. The only reason I ask is because a lot of the exalted rep pieces for the different factions show a haste rating along with some other stats. I don't want to work on getting rep with a faction that is going to benefit me gear wise. Currently, I am raising my rep with Kirin Tor.
Does anyone have any suggestions? Right now, my gear is crap except for a few pieces that I received this weekend from heroics to get me started.
Thanks everyone!
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Get as much haste as possible. It's better than critical hit, and you will be able to out DPS a lot of people if you do not have as much spell power. Our main nuke is channeled, as is our highest DPS spell, which makes haste a good choice over critical.
I out DPS most of a group, and I was still in T4until very recently. The best explanation is that I stack haste, which is going on 13% right now.
There are some really nice level 78 tailoring items with a lot of haste, and some of the quest rewards also have it.
I out DPS most of a group, and I was still in T4until very recently. The best explanation is that I stack haste, which is going on 13% right now.
There are some really nice level 78 tailoring items with a lot of haste, and some of the quest rewards also have it.
Haste is a nice stat for basically every DPS class in the game - as long as your mana allows it, you are getting off more spells in the same amount of time, thus increasing your DPS.
Whether it beats crit rating or not, I can't say. Haste directly improves the amount of "spells cast during X time". The thing is that there are *so* many other factors improving that amount (movement, stuns, mana) that I think it's pretty much impossible to actually calculate which of the two stats is better - in which situation, even, since haste might benefit you more on Patchwerk than it would on Sapphiron.
I wouldn't suggest stacking it until somebody has mathematically proven it to be more beneficial than other stats in more than 50% of the cases, but I wouldn't let it go out of my way either - like Sederix pointed out, the more haste you have the more Mind Flays you will get off in the same time, which DOES eventually lead to a solid amount of extra damage.
I might be wrong however, and I can well imagine somebody having done extensive DPS tests on haste vs stat X on a boss like Patchwerk - your best bet to find a thread about something like that would be Elitistjerks.
Whether it beats crit rating or not, I can't say. Haste directly improves the amount of "spells cast during X time". The thing is that there are *so* many other factors improving that amount (movement, stuns, mana) that I think it's pretty much impossible to actually calculate which of the two stats is better - in which situation, even, since haste might benefit you more on Patchwerk than it would on Sapphiron.
I wouldn't suggest stacking it until somebody has mathematically proven it to be more beneficial than other stats in more than 50% of the cases, but I wouldn't let it go out of my way either - like Sederix pointed out, the more haste you have the more Mind Flays you will get off in the same time, which DOES eventually lead to a solid amount of extra damage.
I might be wrong however, and I can well imagine somebody having done extensive DPS tests on haste vs stat X on a boss like Patchwerk - your best bet to find a thread about something like that would be Elitistjerks.
11 posts
Thanks all -
As long as my mana allows it - good point
I ran VH (heroic) and I found that by the time I got to the bosses - I was pretty much OOM. It could be because after my first spell rotation - I just redo the rotation again. That could be killing my mana.
What's the best way to keep mana stable so that I dont have to stop for drinks every 2 or 3 guys?
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Haste is a nice stat for basically every DPS class in the game - as long as your mana allows it, you are getting off more spells in the same amount of time, thus increasing your DPS.
As long as my mana allows it - good point
I ran VH (heroic) and I found that by the time I got to the bosses - I was pretty much OOM. It could be because after my first spell rotation - I just redo the rotation again. That could be killing my mana.
What's the best way to keep mana stable so that I dont have to stop for drinks every 2 or 3 guys?
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What's the best way to keep mana stable so that I dont have to stop for drinks every 2 or 3 guys?
For one thing, increase your combat regeneration (via spirit since you got Meditation, or straight mp5). Also increase your mana pool to maximize returns from Replenishment.
Try to include Inner Focus in your build. You shouldn't need 3 points in Shadow Affinity. Not only will you get a free spell every 3 minutes, you'll also have lots of fun using Mind Sear since the 25% increased crit chance will affect MS the entire time you're channeling.
Edited, Feb 9th 2009 7:40pm by Kanngarnix
11 posts
Quote:
Try to include Inner Focus in your build. You shouldn't need 3 points in Shadow Affinity
Do you recommend putting anything in Shadow Affinity? Or just maybe a point or 2?
Really - I respec'd and I went by a lot of builds that I had seen around, and that was pretty much the standard build I had seen. But I see where Inner Focus would benefit me especially when it's time for the boss and I can dish out something major and not have my mana effected.
Thanks!
Your rotation is as important as mana regeneration.
If you are not using Mind Blast every time it's available, while target is afflicted by Vampiric Touch, then you will run out of mana very quickly. I usually can cast that twice before VT expires. Also, use Mind Flay or a wand instead of Pain during small fights, and that will save you some mana.
The Glyph of Shadow looks really good, but I have one more level before I can use it. It will give you the "spirit buff" every time you critical hit, which increases damage and mana regeneration.
Haste always works: 1% haste is always 1% DPS increase. Critical hits are sporadic, so there is no reason to believe that one will actually do it consistently enough to justify not stacking haste.
I would still be interested in seeing a comparison between a high critical rating and haste. One would not even need to try the same test with haste; just show some numbers based on a high critical chance, then we can estimate how much haste that might equal.
Somewhere, I have the formula for finding the damage increased, based on critical chance. You'll need to calculate the total number of hits; the number of critical hits, and the number of non-criticals. Then, determine the damage for each set.
Edited, Feb 9th 2009 2:03pm by sederix
If you are not using Mind Blast every time it's available, while target is afflicted by Vampiric Touch, then you will run out of mana very quickly. I usually can cast that twice before VT expires. Also, use Mind Flay or a wand instead of Pain during small fights, and that will save you some mana.
The Glyph of Shadow looks really good, but I have one more level before I can use it. It will give you the "spirit buff" every time you critical hit, which increases damage and mana regeneration.
Quote:
I wouldn't suggest stacking it until somebody has mathematically proven it to be more beneficial than other stats in more than 50% of the cases, but I wouldn't let it go out of my way either - like Sederix pointed out, the more haste you have the more Mind Flays you will get off in the same time, which DOES eventually lead to a solid amount of extra damage.
Haste always works: 1% haste is always 1% DPS increase. Critical hits are sporadic, so there is no reason to believe that one will actually do it consistently enough to justify not stacking haste.
I would still be interested in seeing a comparison between a high critical rating and haste. One would not even need to try the same test with haste; just show some numbers based on a high critical chance, then we can estimate how much haste that might equal.
Somewhere, I have the formula for finding the damage increased, based on critical chance. You'll need to calculate the total number of hits; the number of critical hits, and the number of non-criticals. Then, determine the damage for each set.
Edited, Feb 9th 2009 2:03pm by sederix
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Do you recommend putting anything in Shadow Affinity? Or just maybe a point or 2?
Four things to consider:
1. The way they designed Shadow Priests, they made sure they would be incapable of instant burst damage. By the time you reach your full damage potential (5x Shadow Weaving, all DoTs on) any halfway decent tank will have enough threat for you to be safe.
2. You're getting a 30% threat reduction from Shadowform.
3. There is always Fade to lower your threat if you're getting too close to the tank.
4. If all above fails, you can pop Dispersion and move towards the tank to have him peel the mob(s) off you.
I'd recommend to drop Shadow Affinity altogether. Get Inner Focus and pick up Imp VE with the remaining 2 points.
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Haste always works: 1% haste is always 1% DPS increase.
That's far from true, and that's the point I'm making. 1% haste on a 3 second cast spell means you win 0,03 second, which means you'll have to cast 100 Mind Flays before you actually get that extra Mind Flay off and thus increase your DPS done over the same amount of time. The thing is, haste does not increase damage done at all. What it does is allow you to cast the same spell more often in a set amount of time. That said, in the first place you need to be able to actually get enough Mind Flays off before you get 1 extra which you normally wouldn't have gained.
Haste isn't a direct bonus to damage, it's a bonus to the speed at which you deliver damage and can therefore often be an increase to DPS. Like I pointed out however, on an average raid there are so many external factors that influence the amount of spells you get off in X amount of time that it's nearly impossible to exactly calculate how much of a DPS increase haste is.
What ties in with this is that people forget that DPS isn't anything, which is also where burst steps in. If you can keep up 2.5K DPS over a course of 5 minutes you're doing pretty nice. If a mob has 10K hit points however, you are better off with a DPS that deals 3.3K DPS for the first 3 seconds of the fight and 1K for the rest.
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That's far from true, and that's the point I'm making. 1% haste on a 3 second cast spell means you win 0,03 second, which means you'll have to cast 100 Mind Flays before you actually get that extra Mind Flay off and thus increase your DPS done over the same amount of time. The thing is, haste does not increase damage done at all. What it does is allow you to cast the same spell more often in a set amount of time. That said, in the first place you need to be able to actually get enough Mind Flays off before you get 1 extra which you normally wouldn't have gained.
One does not always critical hit in those three seconds, even with a very high chance to do so. Critical damage is sporadic, which is why I say haste always works.
There probably is a point where critical chance is better than haste past a certain point. I'd love to see the numbers, if someone happens to do the math on it. Mind Flay or Mind Sear would be good examples for this purpose.
sederix wrote:
The Glyph of Shadow looks really good, but I have one more level before I can use it. It will give you the "spirit buff" every time you critical hit, which increases damage and mana regeneration.
Quote:
Glyph of Shadow
Major Glyph
Classes: Priest
Requires Level 20
Use: While in Shadowform, your spell critical strikes increase your spell power by 10% of your Spirit for 10 sec.
Major Glyph
Classes: Priest
Requires Level 20
Use: While in Shadowform, your spell critical strikes increase your spell power by 10% of your Spirit for 10 sec.
Glyph of Shadow does nothing to buff your Spirit or Mana Regen- it buffs your Spell Power by a % of your Spirit for 10 sec when you crit.
11 posts
So, tell me this then. Haste can increase critical strike - is that correct? And in some cases it is better than the actual critical strike stats on gear.
So when I am looking at a piece of gear, for instance 1 says increases critical strike rating by "X" and spell power by "x" and the other piece of gear states increases HASTE rating by X and spell power by X, which one am I better off going with?
So when I am looking at a piece of gear, for instance 1 says increases critical strike rating by "X" and spell power by "x" and the other piece of gear states increases HASTE rating by X and spell power by X, which one am I better off going with?
Haste and critical are two totally different mechanics.
My suggestion is that haste is better, because you can attack faster, than have a chance to proc additional damage. But, if you are attacking more often, then you will do more critical strikes. Neither stat actually has anything to do with the other.
Get the gear that you think you need, however you will usually need to make a choice between stacking haste or critical, sometimes hit. I stack haste because it's more reliable. When I dig out the forumula, I'll try to come up with an estimate on comparing the "bonus damage" from haste or critical rating.
Oops, sorry. I was thinking it added the spirit buff instead. Get it anyway :)
Edited, Feb 9th 2009 2:57pm by sederix
My suggestion is that haste is better, because you can attack faster, than have a chance to proc additional damage. But, if you are attacking more often, then you will do more critical strikes. Neither stat actually has anything to do with the other.
Get the gear that you think you need, however you will usually need to make a choice between stacking haste or critical, sometimes hit. I stack haste because it's more reliable. When I dig out the forumula, I'll try to come up with an estimate on comparing the "bonus damage" from haste or critical rating.
Quote:
Glyph of Shadow does nothing to buff your Spirit or Mana Regen- it buffs your Spell Power by a % of your Spirit for 10 sec when you crit.
Oops, sorry. I was thinking it added the spirit buff instead. Get it anyway :)
Edited, Feb 9th 2009 2:57pm by sederix
TomatoSauce wrote:
So, tell me this then. Haste can increase critical strike - is that correct? And in some cases it is better than the actual critical strike stats on gear.
So when I am looking at a piece of gear, for instance 1 says increases critical strike rating by "X" and spell power by "x" and the other piece of gear states increases HASTE rating by X and spell power by X, which one am I better off going with?
So when I am looking at a piece of gear, for instance 1 says increases critical strike rating by "X" and spell power by "x" and the other piece of gear states increases HASTE rating by X and spell power by X, which one am I better off going with?
Personally, I look at Spell Power -> Crit -> Haste. If the Spell Power is higher than what you're currently wearing, go for it.
I prioritize Crit higher because more cirt = more procs of my Shadow Glyph = more Spell Power = bigger numbers. My cast sequence is usually like:
SW:P> VT> IF> MB> SW:D> DP> SW:P
to get my stack of Shadow weaving (this is for bosses, mind you- most trash I'm usually not so ****), then:
MF (usually x2) > VT > MB > (DP if its down), rinse, repeat. Depending on what kind of damage is going on, I'll usually squeeze in a VE somewhere in there, too. My Mind Flay crits like crazy, so I'm getting the boost from the Glyph quite often.
(Sadly, I'm spec'd Disc atm, so I can't double check my armory to see what my Crit is like in Shadow. Haste I roll with 6.95% atm, though.)
11 posts
Quote:
Personally, I look at Spell Power -> Crit -> Haste. If the Spell Power is higher than what you're currently wearing, go for it.
I prioritize Crit higher because more cirt = more procs of my Shadow Glyph = more Spell Power = bigger numbers. My cast sequence is usually like:
SW:P> VT> IF> MB> SW:D> DP> SW:P
to get my stack of Shadow weaving (this is for bosses, mind you- most trash I'm usually not so ****), then:
MF (usually x2) > VT > MB > (DP if its down), rinse, repeat. Depending on what kind of damage is going on, I'll usually squeeze in a VE somewhere in there, too. My Mind Flay crits like crazy, so I'm getting the boost from the Glyph quite often.
(Sadly, I'm spec'd Disc atm, so I can't double check my armory to see what my Crit is like in Shadow. Haste I roll with 6.95% atm, though.)
So what do you think of some of the clothie gear for revered and exalted factions. A lot of them don't have critical strike rating just haste and spell power - and some have resilience. Sometimes I am adding gear to something that is clearly an upgrade to what I have and I either sacrifice hit rating or critical strike. It can get extremely frustrating. Especially when you have them up to a decent %.
Think I got the correct ratios, for comparing the two. If someone wants to calculate a more extensive formula, then please correct me. Note that haste does not add actual damage.
Mind Flay:
Base damage = 588/3.
1% haste = 5.1 dmg. (0.03/588)
1% crit = 35.28 dmg. (0.03x1176)
If this is correct, then the best choice for stacking is that which you already have the most. In either case, you need a lot to make a noticeable difference.
For this situation, I had to assume that the 1% was consistent. This is not always the case.
Edited, Feb 9th 2009 4:26pm by sederix
Mind Flay:
Base damage = 588/3.
1% haste = 5.1 dmg. (0.03/588)
1% crit = 35.28 dmg. (0.03x1176)
If this is correct, then the best choice for stacking is that which you already have the most. In either case, you need a lot to make a noticeable difference.
For this situation, I had to assume that the 1% was consistent. This is not always the case.
Edited, Feb 9th 2009 4:26pm by sederix
Assuming you have 25% crit rating (which should be fair while raid buffed), you will on average crit 2,5 times per 10 casts. You need a whooping 10% haste for just one extra spell per 10 casts - and even then, unlucky stuns or required movements can completely negate the effect haste has. You cannot rely on the haste bonus being consistant due to all sorts of external factors, while you can rely on crit being consistant.
On the other hand, haste dóes lower the Global Cooldown as well - we're not calculating in the effects a 1.30 GCD on your instant DOTs (which you'll reapply often) will have on your DPS either. That and those external factors bring us back to what I've been saying since the first post; it's pretty much impossible to calculate an exact effect of haste on your DPS.
I think we can only estimate that it's somewhere in between "a little worse than crit" and "a little better than crit". Feel free to calculate away (I was never a math genius), I'd be delighted if it was in fact possible to get more exact information on haste. It's just that right now, I can bring up good arguments for both causes and the calculations I've seen aren't convincing enough.
On the other hand, haste dóes lower the Global Cooldown as well - we're not calculating in the effects a 1.30 GCD on your instant DOTs (which you'll reapply often) will have on your DPS either. That and those external factors bring us back to what I've been saying since the first post; it's pretty much impossible to calculate an exact effect of haste on your DPS.
I think we can only estimate that it's somewhere in between "a little worse than crit" and "a little better than crit". Feel free to calculate away (I was never a math genius), I'd be delighted if it was in fact possible to get more exact information on haste. It's just that right now, I can bring up good arguments for both causes and the calculations I've seen aren't convincing enough.
TomatoSauce wrote:
Quote:
Personally, I look at Spell Power -> Crit -> Haste. If the Spell Power is higher than what you're currently wearing, go for it.
I prioritize Crit higher because more cirt = more procs of my Shadow Glyph = more Spell Power = bigger numbers. My cast sequence is usually like:
SW:P> VT> IF> MB> SW:D> DP> SW:P
to get my stack of Shadow weaving (this is for bosses, mind you- most trash I'm usually not so ****), then:
MF (usually x2) > VT > MB > (DP if its down), rinse, repeat. Depending on what kind of damage is going on, I'll usually squeeze in a VE somewhere in there, too. My Mind Flay crits like crazy, so I'm getting the boost from the Glyph quite often.
(Sadly, I'm spec'd Disc atm, so I can't double check my armory to see what my Crit is like in Shadow. Haste I roll with 6.95% atm, though.)
So what do you think of some of the clothie gear for revered and exalted factions. A lot of them don't have critical strike rating just haste and spell power - and some have resilience. Sometimes I am adding gear to something that is clearly an upgrade to what I have and I either sacrifice hit rating or critical strike. It can get extremely frustrating. Especially when you have them up to a decent %.
The only rep pieces I picked up were the Kalu'ak robes (one for Shadow DPS since I don't have a decent +hit body, and the other for general all around purposeness) and mace (which I used til I got something better from Heroics), and the shoes from Wyrmrest. The shoes I haven't seen anything worthwhile to replace them with yet, so I suspect they will last me a good while.
I haven't really poked around in the other rep rewards much, but the Wyrmrest feet are definitely a nice option.
Haste is good, it's nothing to scooff at. It helps. Really.
But would I pick it over crit? Nope.
Crit increases DoT damage while in shadwform. In addition, your spells will crit more often, proccing Glyph of Shadow, further increasing your damage. In addition, crits are just plain awesome.
Haste just makes you cast faster. That's it.
A lot of a shadowpriest's abilities are cooldown-based. Mind Blast can only be casted once every 5.5 second, when fully talented IIRC. SW:D (kind of useless, but still) can only be casted every so often, too. And DoTs need not be recasted until they wear off. In the case of SW:P, they don't need to be recasted until the next mob.
But one could argue that mind flay is affected by haste. Which it is. But is the benefit we recieve for certain spells and the GCD enough too outweigh the benefit from crit? No.
Don't get me wrong, haste is not a bad stat. It shouldn't be avoided. We do benefit from it. Just not as much as crit. In a tossup between the two, crit wins in my book.
They both are inferior to spellpower, however.
But would I pick it over crit? Nope.
Crit increases DoT damage while in shadwform. In addition, your spells will crit more often, proccing Glyph of Shadow, further increasing your damage. In addition, crits are just plain awesome.
Haste just makes you cast faster. That's it.
A lot of a shadowpriest's abilities are cooldown-based. Mind Blast can only be casted once every 5.5 second, when fully talented IIRC. SW:D (kind of useless, but still) can only be casted every so often, too. And DoTs need not be recasted until they wear off. In the case of SW:P, they don't need to be recasted until the next mob.
But one could argue that mind flay is affected by haste. Which it is. But is the benefit we recieve for certain spells and the GCD enough too outweigh the benefit from crit? No.
Don't get me wrong, haste is not a bad stat. It shouldn't be avoided. We do benefit from it. Just not as much as crit. In a tossup between the two, crit wins in my book.
They both are inferior to spellpower, however.
Shadowpriest.com has lots of math on stats and how they impact our DPS. At level 80 spell hit to the cap is king. Once you are at the hit cap more spell hit is worth nothing. Next is spell power. Everything we do scales with spell power. You’re #1 focus should be on spell power once you are at the hit cap.
Interestingly Crit and Haste both run at about 62% of spell power. This allows you to focus more on your play style. Do you want to see big numbers; focus on crit over haste. Do you like to cast more spells over time; focus on haste over crit.
Myself I try to balance my haste and crit, as the above posters point out sometimes you need big numbers even if crit is a bit random and sometimes you need to cast spells as fast as possible so that as things distract you your spells are still coming. But in longer fights haste = crit to your DPS.
Last are Int and Spirit. These add to your DPS at about 20% of spell power. These won’t impact your gear choices much but you may have some cases where item A has 50 spell power and item B has 45 spell power and 50 spirit. Item B is a bit better.
Other stats that you can pick up that will not impact your DPS are Mp5 and Stamina. Stamina of course you need enough to stay alive through Boss AOEs and that's it. You will probably pick this up without trying. Mp5 I personally have found that a little bit makes a big difference in your fight longevity. I would not add much as more than that little bit just leaves you with lots of mana. In the perfect boss fight you kill the boss after burning all cool downs and having enough mana left for only 1-2 more spells. My liking Mp5 probably just means I need better gear.
Interestingly Crit and Haste both run at about 62% of spell power. This allows you to focus more on your play style. Do you want to see big numbers; focus on crit over haste. Do you like to cast more spells over time; focus on haste over crit.
Myself I try to balance my haste and crit, as the above posters point out sometimes you need big numbers even if crit is a bit random and sometimes you need to cast spells as fast as possible so that as things distract you your spells are still coming. But in longer fights haste = crit to your DPS.
Last are Int and Spirit. These add to your DPS at about 20% of spell power. These won’t impact your gear choices much but you may have some cases where item A has 50 spell power and item B has 45 spell power and 50 spirit. Item B is a bit better.
Other stats that you can pick up that will not impact your DPS are Mp5 and Stamina. Stamina of course you need enough to stay alive through Boss AOEs and that's it. You will probably pick this up without trying. Mp5 I personally have found that a little bit makes a big difference in your fight longevity. I would not add much as more than that little bit just leaves you with lots of mana. In the perfect boss fight you kill the boss after burning all cool downs and having enough mana left for only 1-2 more spells. My liking Mp5 probably just means I need better gear.
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