Patch 3.0.9 Rogue ChangesFollow

Goodbye mutilate for pvp, hello shadowdance.

Can a mutilate raider answer this ... how much of your total damage comes from Mutilate.

If it's, say, 20% of total damage, then this works out to being about a 4-5% nerf.

HfB replenishes that quite easily, and then adds a bit.

As for it being a PvP nerf, yup it is, but not unexpected - Blizz have said for a while that they will be nerfing Rogue PvP burst damage because it's too high.

1) I didn't say it was a good/deserved nerf, I said it was expected. Heck, I don't PvP, and I knew it was coming ... so should you have. (**)
2) Arcane has received a similar burst nerf -> Arcane Power and Pyroblast now share a cooldown - meaning instant, massive damage pyros are not going to be commonplace anymore, while Arcane Power now only increases damage by 10%, not 25%. You've pretty much seen the last of Arcane Powered instant Pyros up your Pattoot.
3) Ferocious bite got the same nerf the warrior's execute got ... can only make use of a maximum of 30 energy, meaning it's burst has pretty much been cut in half.

(**) - so in light of these other PvP nerfs for other classes, it's probably an ok nerf - simply because the other burst classes got the same treatment.

There was also a nerf across the board to all effects that reduced casting speed: - Rogues, 'Locks, Mages are negatively affected here .. casters are positively affected ...

At first I almost cried, then I saw the SnD and HfB buffs.
Very likely to give an overall higher damage output in pve, providing you don't let them drop.

I'm wondering if the loss of Muti burstiness will negatively affect those of us who are still leveling. I'm at 74 and the Muti burst is what typically kills mobs before my Kidney shot has even worn off. While I wholeheartedly agree that this is a buff for raiding rogues, it may not be so great for levelers.


Thoughts?

While I agree to some extent, I can tell you that I switched quickly to combat about a week ago because I picked up some nice fist weapons. Killing mobs with a deep combat spec was easily 30% more difficult over Muti. Mind you, when I had evasion, Killing spree, AR, S&D, and blade flurry up, the DPS was AMAZING. I was easily able to down a 75 elite at level 74. I don't think that would have been possible with Muti. But we all know those abilities aren't there all of the time.

IMO, for single mob DPS nothing beats leveling with a muti/remorseless build. Since the fights last less than 10 seconds, I believe the bonus reduction from 50% to 20% will be huge for levelers, since IMO it is the mutilates that kill the mobs much more so than the white damage.

Keep in mind most levelers don't take/don't bother with HFB, so the buff there is meaningless.


I hope I'm wrong. I really like the muti spec, but it seemed like for short bursty fights (leveling/PVP) it is getting hit with the nerf bat hard.

Can you be a little more specific please?

Buffs/Nerfs to classes hardly matter when you look at it from a soloing/leveling perspective. Yes, your damage might go down a little bit, but what difference does it make whether your enemy dies in 10 or 11 seconds ? The order in which you get certain skills and at which items become available has probably more impact on your leveling than the question of whether your mutilate does slightly less damage or not.

I really wouldn't worry about it if I were you, because you'll be at level cap fast enough anyway.

As for the changes themselves I'm slowly getting sick of class changes due to pvp whining, but at least this time it seems like they managed to pull of a PVP nerf without negative effects on PVE damage (which they agreed is too low for rogues anyway).

This combination of changes makes me think that the new optimal Mutilate raid spec will be 51/15/5. Any thoughts?

Edited for clarity.

Edited, Feb 9th 2009 11:19pm by Demea

I don't see why you even need to use Kidney Shot. I just went CS, mut, eviscerate, mut. Dead. Actually, they were usually dead after the eviscerate. It's not like we need to be behind them any more, which was the reason we used KS in the first place. Your weapons must suck.

And why the hell do you care about your damage while leveling? Leveling is fcking easy. People only start caring about DPS when they start raiding. That's when these nerfs start to take effect. You don't even notice that sh*t when you're level 75.

Edited, Feb 10th 2009 8:20am by zepoodle

CS>SND>SS>SS>KS>SS>SS>Evis

I don't know why you're taking so long to pop SnD. Also make sure you have wound poison up on both your weapons. That offhand fist is ok, but I'd probably get a quicker dagger instead. That mainhand is pretty meh for a rogue. Your hit rating sucks too.

My average combat time per mob is like 4 seconds. 30% more time? That's like 1 extra second. The cooldown abilities have low CDS. Which means they're up pretty often. And it's like having an ****** every 2-3 minutes.

Combat is the faster leveling build. If not then you're doing it wrong.

Well I suppose my thought process was not to blow 2 cps on S&D (which is way overkill especially with imp S&D) when they would be put to better use for a longer KS. Assuming Ruthlessness doesn't proc after the S&D, your talking about a 2 point KS in the rotation you quoted above......which doesn't seem like much.

Meh.....I'll give it a try. Especially with the improvements to S&D it is probably worth popping sooner.

Yeah hit rating is low because I initially broke this toon off my main account at level 60 to give to my wife to play (BC had just been released). She decided to quit playing after a month, so it just sat there at level 64 for over a year. In the meantime I quit wow, and got rid of my main account. Honestly though, the hit gear on my main rogue was no better, but that was because he was in s2/s3 gear, and was only used for PVP.

When I decided to come back I just decided to level my wife's orphaned rogue instead of starting a new one at level 1. My point is, I just solo'd the rogue to where it is now. Skipped the Outland dungeons because no one was running them and my current gear is ungemmable, and certainly not worth enchanting. My hit is going to have to stay where it is for a while.

I'm surprised, I notice absolutely NO difference on cloth and leather classes. I notice a subtle difference on mail classes (Hunters, shamans), and I REALLY notice it on plate and bear druids. In all it's not as bad as I thought. I can still burn a rogue down with 18k hp before a stunlocks over.

I usually just bleed/dismantle warriors to death, so it doesn't really bother me much there. I guess ferals, DK's and Paladins are out of the question now.

Edited, Feb 11th 2009 3:16am by Zafire