"Since paladins rely less on Spirit as a mana-regeneration stat, we have to address them in other ways. We don’t want to change Illumination or Replenishment. However, we are going to increase the healing penalty on Divine Plea from 20% to 50%. Divine Plea was originally intended to help Protection and Retribution paladins stay full on mana. It should be a decision for Holy paladins, not something that is automatically used every cooldown. "
-_-
Am I wrong in saying no other class has a mana regen tool that incurs a healing penalty?
Would have preferred they just exptended the CD on it.
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bawbaag wrote:
"Since paladins rely less on Spirit as a mana-regeneration stat, we have to address them in other ways. We don’t want to change Illumination or Replenishment. However, we are going to increase the healing penalty on Divine Plea from 20% to 50%. Divine Plea was originally intended to help Protection and Retribution paladins stay full on mana. It should be a decision for Holy paladins, not something that is automatically used every cooldown. "
-_-
Am I wrong in saying no other class has a mana regen tool that incurs a healing penalty?
Would have preferred they just exptended the CD on it.
-_-
Am I wrong in saying no other class has a mana regen tool that incurs a healing penalty?
Would have preferred they just exptended the CD on it.
Doesn't really matter if other classes have a mana regen that incurs a healing penalty. A good holy pally can easily manage the existing penalty that comes with Divine Plea, and it's just like Blizz said: right now, it's basically used like a free potion every time it's off cooldown. The idea is that it should be used more selectively...to require thought on the part of the player. If you're about to go OOM, 50% healing is better than none.
The whole thing revolves around what Blizzard has said about planning future encounters: if mana is a non-issue like it is for the most part now, their only option to keep healers from falling asleep at the keyboard would be to ramp up the damage thrown around in raid encounters. From a tank's point of view, I'd rather see encounters that require everyone to play a more intelligent game than massive spike damage being tossed around where a second of lag means a wipe (and a repair bill).
Still, would it not be more consistent with the other classes if the CD was extended to say 3 mins with no healing penalty?
Regen should be used more proactively and not when you are at 0 mana. YOu don't hit it when you have no mana left, you hit it when you have say 50% left. I'm all for managing mana and right now I don't use it every CD, I also know that on some bosses I can't choose when I can use it because a 50% healing penalty could endanger the tank.
The original thread was all about mana regen and how it's too OP at the moment. Should the nerf not have impacted the regen directly? Either how much can be regened or how often? That's what has happened with priests and druids with the spirit nerf.
Every holy pala that know's anything about his spec is stacking INT right now because of Divine Plea and it's superiority as a regen tool to mp5. Now it's a bit of a dliemma, you will still get the extra regen from divine plea BUT only if you use it every CD. With the healing penalty you'd be a total nutter to do that. So what do we do now? start stacking more SP so that your heals still count for something when you use it? return to mp5?
My mp5 is hovering around 60 while casting at the moment which is the lowest it has been since I was about level 68. Guess some numbers need to be crunched to see what works best now.
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 8:01am by bawbaag
Quote:
If you're about to go OOM, 50% healing is better than none.
Regen should be used more proactively and not when you are at 0 mana. YOu don't hit it when you have no mana left, you hit it when you have say 50% left. I'm all for managing mana and right now I don't use it every CD, I also know that on some bosses I can't choose when I can use it because a 50% healing penalty could endanger the tank.
The original thread was all about mana regen and how it's too OP at the moment. Should the nerf not have impacted the regen directly? Either how much can be regened or how often? That's what has happened with priests and druids with the spirit nerf.
Every holy pala that know's anything about his spec is stacking INT right now because of Divine Plea and it's superiority as a regen tool to mp5. Now it's a bit of a dliemma, you will still get the extra regen from divine plea BUT only if you use it every CD. With the healing penalty you'd be a total nutter to do that. So what do we do now? start stacking more SP so that your heals still count for something when you use it? return to mp5?
My mp5 is hovering around 60 while casting at the moment which is the lowest it has been since I was about level 68. Guess some numbers need to be crunched to see what works best now.
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 8:01am by bawbaag
Apples and Oranges, Priests don't rely on that as their primary form of mana regen, it's a party buff (and if they are, I'm impressed that they can survive with just 8% mana return every 5 min). Not to mention that direct healing spells aren't their sole form of healing...
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 10:46am by angryempath
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 10:46am by angryempath
The announcement irked me at first, in part because it seemed to single out Holy Paladins, but after further reflection I came to the same conclusion as AureliusSir. What was once a testament to a good healadin's skill, mana conservation, has ceased to be an issue in Wrath. Arguably, a 50% penalty might be too much of an overcorrection, but at the moment, the 20% penalty really doesn't give me much reason to pause. It seems, and I'm speaking very generally here, that most raid engagements have regularly scheduled "pauses" in which the boss does less or even no damage, that last nearly as long as the Divine Plea. Even with a 50% penalty, you will just need to anticipate when the next slowdown is coming so that you only hit your automatic regen button during a period when less healing will be needed.
The bigger question I see is the one that bawbaag just added- what do you want to do with MP5 gear drops between now and the Ulduar patch? I was looking at a drop last night that I wouldn't equip today, but that might be pretty sweet if we will be forced to start stacking MP5 again. Thank goodness our shammy wanted it because I would probably have come to regret seeing it sharded.
The bigger question I see is the one that bawbaag just added- what do you want to do with MP5 gear drops between now and the Ulduar patch? I was looking at a drop last night that I wouldn't equip today, but that might be pretty sweet if we will be forced to start stacking MP5 again. Thank goodness our shammy wanted it because I would probably have come to regret seeing it sharded.
It's our only real mana regen. Illumination keeps you going longer, but once you're OOM, you're done. If a pally goes OOM, we have a whole 200 MP5 with BoW while not casting. My 28 priest has 200 MP5 while not casting... Most priests and druids at 80 are over 1k MP5.
So for a while I wanted to complain. Then I remembered something.. I have 50% overheal as a rule. If I cut down my raw healing by 50%, I lose my overhealing, not effective healing. Oh noes.
Edit: Stacking int is still the important thing. Many fights have a lull in damage where you can use Divine Plea and not miss much. You still need it to provide all the mana you can get. Also, Replenishment is still considered a mandatory raid buff, and it's being given to more classes.
Maybe in Ulduar we won't be spam-casting so many heals I can't even see the ground under me due to addons and tunnel vision.
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 12:01pm by Ehcks
So for a while I wanted to complain. Then I remembered something.. I have 50% overheal as a rule. If I cut down my raw healing by 50%, I lose my overhealing, not effective healing. Oh noes.
Edit: Stacking int is still the important thing. Many fights have a lull in damage where you can use Divine Plea and not miss much. You still need it to provide all the mana you can get. Also, Replenishment is still considered a mandatory raid buff, and it's being given to more classes.
Maybe in Ulduar we won't be spam-casting so many heals I can't even see the ground under me due to addons and tunnel vision.
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 12:01pm by Ehcks
Quote:
Apples and Oranges, Priests don't rely on that as their primary form of mana regen, it's a party buff (and if they are, I'm impressed that they can survive with just 8% mana return every 5 min). Not to mention that direct healing spells aren't their sole form of healing...
Of course, I never claimed all that, even though it gets pretty close if you're playing disc. What I'm trying to proof is that there are in fact other mana regen skills with a (considerable) downsides that are used. Sure, it's not a smart thing to use Divine Plea as you're about to heal your tank through Anub'arak's locust swarm - but that's the whole deal with it: Blizzard is trying to change the spell in such a way that you can't just /yawn and apply it as soon as you get somewhat low on mana. You need to time it better and look for niches to put it in. Basically, what Aurelius and Ehkcs said. The only place where I can actually see this nerf becoming a serious problem is in PvP, as damage there is so unpredictable you can royally ***** yourself over by using your Plea at the wrong moment.
Quote:
What I'm trying to proof is that there are in fact other mana regen skills with a (considerable) downsides that are used.
For healers, Divine Plea is the only one really.
No one dies if a Mage sits out for 8 sec to Evocate.
angryempath wrote:
No one dies if a Mage sits out for 8 sec to Evocate.
Agreed.
Yes, 50% healing is better than none, but the 20% reduction seemed like enough of a penalty already.
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 2:56pm by Lockebeez
bawbaag wrote:
Still, would it not be more consistent with the other classes if the CD was extended to say 3 mins with no healing penalty?
Blizz stated in that exact sentence that Divine Please was meant to be a tool for Prot and Ret to regain mana. Putting it on a 3 minute cooldown would probably help Holy more than the 50% heal reduction, but it would certainly hurt Prot and Ret which is counter-productive to what they want.
(Quote tag failage...)
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 5:34pm by Wchigo
bawbaag wrote:
Still, would it not be more consistent with the other classes if the CD was extended to say 3 mins with no healing penalty?
Regen should be used more proactively and not when you are at 0 mana. YOu don't hit it when you have no mana left, you hit it when you have say 50% left. I'm all for managing mana and right now I don't use it every CD, I also know that on some bosses I can't choose when I can use it because a 50% healing penalty could endanger the tank.
Quote:
If you're about to go OOM, 50% healing is better than none.
Regen should be used more proactively and not when you are at 0 mana. YOu don't hit it when you have no mana left, you hit it when you have say 50% left. I'm all for managing mana and right now I don't use it every CD, I also know that on some bosses I can't choose when I can use it because a 50% healing penalty could endanger the tank.
I'm not saying wait until you're at 0 mana to use it, I'm saying that it shouldn't be seen as part of a ho-hum standard ongoing mana regen scenario. That's what it's used for now, and holy paladins who are using it as such aren't doing anything wrong...they're working within the mechanics as they currently exist.
Quote:
The original thread was all about mana regen and how it's too OP at the moment. Should the nerf not have impacted the regen directly? Either how much can be regened or how often? That's what has happened with priests and druids with the spirit nerf.
I think you just answered your own question. Mana regen for priests and druids is based on Spirit. Mana regen for holy paladins is not. They're addressing mana regen for priests and druids from the spirit angle, and they're addressing it for holy paladins from the Divine Plea angle.
Quote:
Every holy pala that know's anything about his spec is stacking INT right now because of Divine Plea and it's superiority as a regen tool to mp5. Now it's a bit of a dliemma, you will still get the extra regen from divine plea BUT only if you use it every CD. With the healing penalty you'd be a total nutter to do that. So what do we do now? start stacking more SP so that your heals still count for something when you use it? return to mp5?
I'm sure Holy Paladins will figure it out. It's a change. Change means...change. Different itemization, different gems/enchants.
It seems to me that the trick isn't going to be found in figuring out how to re-gear to keep everything the same. It's going to be how to refine your playstyle to account for the changes so that your groups can still succeed. It won't necessarily fall entirely on the healers, either. It could be a situation where tanks are expected to focus on more of an avoidance build instead of simply stacking Stamina in every available spot. It could be that your dps are going to have to spend less time "standing in the fire". It's not always about how much you can heal and for how long so much as how much you have to heal before people start dropping.
It needed a nerf. When I can end 3 Drakes at full mana on top of healing meters without popping one mana potion it is time to pony up and just admit "yeah that is pretty OP". 25% reduction didn't really affect my healing at all.
I still think they need to sit down and think about it before they make knee jerk changes, cause you know the whole Avenging Wrath/Bubble thing only took how many attempts to fix? They really need to sit down and figure out what they want to do with healers and mana regen, which is what they are working on with the next patch but they better do it right otherwise they are just creating more work for themselves.
I still think they need to sit down and think about it before they make knee jerk changes, cause you know the whole Avenging Wrath/Bubble thing only took how many attempts to fix? They really need to sit down and figure out what they want to do with healers and mana regen, which is what they are working on with the next patch but they better do it right otherwise they are just creating more work for themselves.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Quote:
Blizz stated in that exact sentence that Divine Please was meant to be a tool for Prot and Ret to regain mana. Putting it on a 3 minute cooldown would probably help Holy more than the 50% heal reduction, but it would certainly hurt Prot and Ret which is counter-productive to what they want.
One of the Pally updates states that a Prot talent is going to allow them to have Divine Plea refreshed.
They could also buff JotW if it was an issue for Ret =/
angryempath wrote:
Quote:
Blizz stated in that exact sentence that Divine Please was meant to be a tool for Prot and Ret to regain mana. Putting it on a 3 minute cooldown would probably help Holy more than the 50% heal reduction, but it would certainly hurt Prot and Ret which is counter-productive to what they want.
One of the Pally updates states that a Prot talent is going to allow them to have Divine Plea refreshed.
They could also buff JotW if it was an issue for Ret =/
I'm not at all sure how they're going to work that. Currently, Guarded by the Light offers a 6% magic damage reduction and increases damage from shield-based attacks (AS, SoR, Holy Shield) by 30%. Blizzard said they're going to remove the damage bonus and just roll it into the abilities themselves, which, if they changed nothing else, would leave the talent at simply 6% magic DR.
The only thing I can think of would be changing the talent so that it refreshes Divine Plea when you take magic damage with an internal cooldown (perhaps 2 mins or something) so that Divine Plea remains exactly the same for prot pallies as it is now.
AureliusSir wrote:
angryempath wrote:
Quote:
Blizz stated in that exact sentence that Divine Please was meant to be a tool for Prot and Ret to regain mana. Putting it on a 3 minute cooldown would probably help Holy more than the 50% heal reduction, but it would certainly hurt Prot and Ret which is counter-productive to what they want.
One of the Pally updates states that a Prot talent is going to allow them to have Divine Plea refreshed.
They could also buff JotW if it was an issue for Ret =/
I'm not at all sure how they're going to work that. Currently, Guarded by the Light offers a 6% magic damage reduction and increases damage from shield-based attacks (AS, SoR, Holy Shield) by 30%. Blizzard said they're going to remove the damage bonus and just roll it into the abilities themselves, which, if they changed nothing else, would leave the talent at simply 6% magic DR.
The only thing I can think of would be changing the talent so that it refreshes Divine Plea when you take magic damage with an internal cooldown (perhaps 2 mins or something) so that Divine Plea remains exactly the same for prot pallies as it is now.
Not quite, no. Guarded by the Light currently reduces magic damage taken by 3%/6% and reduces mana cost of the shield-based attacks by 15%/30%. The +damage talent you're thinking of is Shield of the Templar.
So Templar will now most likely be a talent that silences a mob with a shield-based attack for 1 sec/2 sec/3 sec, or it's going to be one of those "other" talents that have their ranks reduced. Guarded by the Light will then seemingly granted 3%/6% mdmg reduction and 50%/100% chance to refresh DP... that's a little odd. It's either as you said where it refreshes when you take magic damage... which then seems situational since not all trash packs (at least in heroics, can't say for raids) have caster mobs. Or it's some kind of refresh effect whenever you use a shield move, which seems WAY OP. I really have no idea how Blizz is gonna pull this one out.
(Fail... put % instead of seconds... >_>)
Edited, Feb 7th 2009 1:10am by Wchigo
healer regen absolutly needs the nerf. they way that they are going about sucks. its gonna be a tug of war for the next 3 months.
what they need to do is do away with mp5! make spirit THE regen tool only and modify the classes and talents based on that. this way stuff like Divine Plea and Replenishment could work of of +spirit rather than %mana. talents and/or glyphs would make it so "non-casters"(Ret, Enh, Hunters) could convert a major stat to spirit, similar to the Stam/Int/AP->Spell for pallies.
the other option for Divine Plea(most likely) is to increase the cd to 3mins and work in talents for Prot and Ret to reduce it. there's a nice home in that Swift Retribution talent(if only it were 2pts).
what they need to do is do away with mp5! make spirit THE regen tool only and modify the classes and talents based on that. this way stuff like Divine Plea and Replenishment could work of of +spirit rather than %mana. talents and/or glyphs would make it so "non-casters"(Ret, Enh, Hunters) could convert a major stat to spirit, similar to the Stam/Int/AP->Spell for pallies.
the other option for Divine Plea(most likely) is to increase the cd to 3mins and work in talents for Prot and Ret to reduce it. there's a nice home in that Swift Retribution talent(if only it were 2pts).
Quote:
Not quite, no. Guarded by the Light currently reduces magic damage taken by 3%/6% and reduces mana cost of the shield-based attacks by 15%/30%. The +damage talent you're thinking of is Shield of the Templar.
So Templar will now most likely be a talent that silences a mob with a shield-based attack for 1 sec/2 sec/3 sec, or it's going to be one of those "other" talents that have their ranks reduced. Guarded by the Light will then seemingly granted 3%/6% mdmg reduction and 50%/100% chance to refresh DP... that's a little odd. It's either as you said where it refreshes when you take magic damage... which then seems situational since not all trash packs (at least in heroics, can't say for raids) have caster mobs. Or it's some kind of refresh effect whenever you use a shield move, which seems WAY OP. I really have no idea how Blizz is gonna pull this one out.
(Fail... put % instead of seconds... >_>)
So Templar will now most likely be a talent that silences a mob with a shield-based attack for 1 sec/2 sec/3 sec, or it's going to be one of those "other" talents that have their ranks reduced. Guarded by the Light will then seemingly granted 3%/6% mdmg reduction and 50%/100% chance to refresh DP... that's a little odd. It's either as you said where it refreshes when you take magic damage... which then seems situational since not all trash packs (at least in heroics, can't say for raids) have caster mobs. Or it's some kind of refresh effect whenever you use a shield move, which seems WAY OP. I really have no idea how Blizz is gonna pull this one out.
(Fail... put % instead of seconds... >_>)
Maybe they mean that Shield Spells will refresh Divine Plea?
Meh, something needed to be done, it was OP before, now it just means that I hafta pop wings to get 20% healing back after I lose 50%. Yeah, I'll still lose some, but it will have less of an impact.
Maara wrote:
Meh, something needed to be done, it was OP before, now it just means that I hafta pop wings to get 20% healing back after I lose 50%. Yeah, I'll still lose some, but it will have less of an impact.
'Xactly
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
It is a bit OP, I agree. On many fights I keep it on CD starting at about 80% mana. On a recent Sarth10 fight the ret pally asked in vent, with a tint of incredulity in his voice, "Cyn I have just one question - how did you manage to not go oom on that fight?"
I'm not sure the 50% hit is the answer though, unless there are other changes that will impact us.
I'd just like to point out that if you use bacon often and if you have the HL glyph then a lot of that overhealing is not direct healing. I have a feeling the 50% hit will impact us more than you may think at the moment.
Remember, most people haven't played a pally and even when they do a lot of studying on their own class, as most of the people in my guild do, they wind up with two things that stick out in their heads about Holy Pallies when they are putting a group together - unsurpassed MT healer and mana miser. This hit will affect both those things so we need to improvise, adapt, and overcome (to quote my man Clint).
While this did not always work before because wings has a longer CD, yes its one way to adapt now that DP won't be kept on CD (like I have done).
I'm not sure the 50% hit is the answer though, unless there are other changes that will impact us.
Quote:
I have 50% overheal as a rule. If I cut down my raw healing by 50%, I lose my overhealing, not effective healing.
I'd just like to point out that if you use bacon often and if you have the HL glyph then a lot of that overhealing is not direct healing. I have a feeling the 50% hit will impact us more than you may think at the moment.
Remember, most people haven't played a pally and even when they do a lot of studying on their own class, as most of the people in my guild do, they wind up with two things that stick out in their heads about Holy Pallies when they are putting a group together - unsurpassed MT healer and mana miser. This hit will affect both those things so we need to improvise, adapt, and overcome (to quote my man Clint).
Quote:
Meh, something needed to be done, it was OP before, now it just means that I hafta pop wings to get 20% healing back after I lose 50%. Yeah, I'll still lose some, but it will have less of an impact.
While this did not always work before because wings has a longer CD, yes its one way to adapt now that DP won't be kept on CD (like I have done).
"the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
I can't believe that divine plea was designed to help ret and prot not run out of mana. Especially ret, I mean jeez. Hello? Judgements of the wise? They nerfed that talent anyway didn't they? Why not just put it back to 30% or whatever it was?
It will be nice to not have to mash Seal of Wisdom every 2 min but I wouldn't count that as a buff really, whereas divine plea for holy is a nerf.
Always with the nerfs that affect holy...
QQ
It will be nice to not have to mash Seal of Wisdom every 2 min but I wouldn't count that as a buff really, whereas divine plea for holy is a nerf.
Always with the nerfs that affect holy...
I still think increasing the cooldown would be a much better way to fine-tune our mana regen.
They could just stack a cd reduction into late staple Prot/Ret talents, if necessary.
They could just stack a cd reduction into late staple Prot/Ret talents, if necessary.
Honestly, I was getting sick of spamming Divine Please every time it was on cooldown. I couldn't imagine that's how Blizzard intended for it to be used. Sure it worked...but it felt very awkward.
I was thinking of going back to Mp5 already...this just kind of seals the deal for me.
I was thinking of going back to Mp5 already...this just kind of seals the deal for me.
ekaterinodar wrote:
I was thinking of going back to Mp5 already...this just kind of seals the deal for me.
/facepalm
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
bodhisattva wrote:
ekaterinodar wrote:
I was thinking of going back to Mp5 already...this just kind of seals the deal for me.
/facepalm
Seeing as Blizzard has continually attempted to avoid/remove the need for minuet micromanaging of buffs the need to constantly spam one skill to have any mana regeneration seems not as intended. It was giving me nightmares of my Guild Wars days where 1 minute was considered a long buff and the rest lasted 10 or 30 seconds.
Although it may have worked, it seems like a flawed system. I'd rather there be a less awkward method of mana regeneration that wasn't solely dependent on mashing one button every minute.
Fully buffed I have 20k mana. Using divine plea that equates to 5000 mana every 60 seconds. Which equates to roughly ~83.3 mana per second or 415 Mp5.
At the same time if I'm getting 20% less healing that means over the course of 5 heals I'll need to cast another heal in there to make up for the healing lost. Depending on which heals I use this can be a bigger or smaller waste of total mana.
Throw in 50% and the numbers become far worse. For every heal I cast while under divine plea I'll have to throw up another just to get that amount. In a 5-man heroic I can't afford stop healing for 5 seconds on a boss fight let alone 15.
My holy light costs about 1162 mana right now. It heals on average for 9.2k reg, 14.5k crits. This means to get 9.2k healing under divine plea I need to spend over 2200 mana. Not only that, but if the tank decides to take some mean burst damage I have to deal with a slow cast time. Flash of Light becomes nearly insignificant.
A healing class in this game that has no mana regeneration unless it presses a button every minute seems very...awkward.
Yes you have illumination but with a 35% chance to crit on that and only 60% mana restoration from that... it just doesn't make sense to me. And as Blizzard is saying... they never intended Divine Plea to be THE SOURCE of mana for Healadins.
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